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View Full Version : A $5000 annual and I get to take my airplane home in pieces



Eric Marsh
07-18-2012, 06:25 PM
Man, I so want to get my RV finished and be done with certified aircraft.

---- rant on ----- unhappy camper ---- you might want to skip this post ----

After jumping through the necessary hoops I got my PPL this spring. Last year I bought a '58 Piper Tripacer for $20k because the engine was supposed to have been gone through and the ADs taken care of. So I fly my Tripacer in for an owner assisted annual, a month and a half ago. I'm told that two cylinders have 40/45 psi compression. It might be true but she's been climbing out at 800 fpm. I tell the shop to do what is necessary but skip the engine work because it will break my budget. Having long experience in engine work I'd take a look at the engine myself.

A month and a half later I show up to reassemble the aircraft. I've filed the ferry permit paperwork with the FAA to make the 15 mile flight home (over a bunch of empty fields). They deny it.

I'm not going to anti up another $3000 to replace the two cylinders without seeing what's wrong for myself so I decide just to pull the wings from my bird and trailer her home. Time to settle up and my tab is $5300.

Ouch.

I'm not going to point fingers at the shop that did the work. They have certain rules that they are obligated to abide by. Yes there were value judgements made and they are the professionals so I'm not going to question them.

But the question keeps getting asked, why are there so few pilots? At this point my feeling is that the payoff for all the hoops it's necessary to jump through and the associated expenses may or may not be there. Right now it feels to me like the problem is not with aviation, it's with the system itself. The FAA has done a great job of keeping commercial flights in the air. But that bureaucracy doesn't exactly seem to be making it friendly for the little guy.

I like flying my Tripacer - the view is nice on a clear day but it's sure taken a lot of time and expense to enjoy that view. But I've got to ask myself is it really fun enough? It is too damn slow.

I guess that there is an up side. The up side is that almost all of my experiences with the certified aircraft strengthen my motivation that much more to get my RV6-A put together. After I post this I'm going to go out and see if everything is ready for me to start assembling the fuel tanks.

I've raced drag bikes on and off since the early 1970s. The nice thing about bike racing is that the track inspectors pretty much always gave us a pass because they didn't know what to look for on a bike. I was starting a front engine dragster project when I came upon the bureaucracy known as the National Hot Rod Association. Believe it or not, they may be worse than the FAA. Their drivers medical exam was worse than my flight physical anyway. That was what started my adventure as a pilot. (The rail is now hanging on my shop wall. Everybody should have at least one race car part hanging on their shop wall.) I'm hoping that ownership of a self built experimental will be more like the motorcycle experience than the dragster experience.

As for the Tripacer at this point I'm annoyed enough that I'm tempted to sell it. But the wife's requirement is four seats and high wings and I'll probably not do any better at those requirements on my budget so I'll be clearing out some space in the shop and taking a look at that engine.

I really want to be done with certified aircraft.

----- rant off -----

nrpetersen
07-18-2012, 07:55 PM
Ouch!

You probably know this but repeat the compression test on a warm engine. Assuming it still doesn't make the numbers, find out stake the valves, find where it is leaking (intake, exhaust, or crankcase breather). Then check for the valve stem wobble, and borescope the valve faces to see if there are obvious hot spots.

Don't tear it apart til you post what you find.

Eric Marsh
07-18-2012, 08:37 PM
Will do. The original test was on a hot engine. I learned that lesson some time back. I figured that first I would pull the intake tubes and exhaust manifold and listen for leaking air there. I quickly checked the lifters to make sure they weren't bottomed out and they seemed to be OK. I'm thinking exhaust valve myself since the plugs were reading lean.

Dave Stadt
07-18-2012, 10:51 PM
Might not hurt to watch the Mike Busch Webinar on annual inspections. Probably a bunch of others of interest to a new owner also.

Jim Rosenow
07-19-2012, 06:37 AM
Eric, first let me say I feel your pain...been there, and it hurts! I completely understand your frustration.

Second, some hopefully constructive comments based more on your previous situation than your current one (your post is in hangar talk, not the maintenance forum). They're more directed at the potential first-time buyer that may be reading this than anyone else.

An extensive pre-buy inspection by someone intimate with the particular a/c type is crucial to buying any airplane, especially in our current situation where a lot of airplanes are just sitting around. IMHO a pre-buy should have caught much of whatever contributed to a $5K annual. The shortwing Pipers in particular have an excellent/active type club (www.shortwing.org) that can answer almost any question. Highly recommend them.

You didn't mention your qualifications for working on aircraft. In the lack of an A&P, I suggest being wary of posting non-owner-allowed maintenance to a public forum. Big Bro is watching! I understand you are a well-qualified mechanic....not worth anything with the FAA.

All that said, you are where you are at this point. The up-side....once your T/P is in working order, you will have an aircraft that can compete with anything current for basic flying. Speed, load-carrying ability (within limits of course) and functionality are all excellent.

Again, previous experience makes me totally empathatic with your situation, and I wish you an easy fix.

Jim
EAA 64315

Eric Marsh
07-19-2012, 07:50 AM
Jim, I spent a lot of time looking for an aircraft I could afford that met my requirements. I purchased it from an A&P who had done the engine work and the previous annual. Since this was done remotely I had to work with the assumption that I could trust him. At least he is being pretty good about helping me out on this thing.

I am a member of the Shortwing club so I can call on those resources.

As for working on the aircraft, I'm well aware of the legal limitations to what I can do. Legally I can do the disassembly and I will have the machine work done by an appropriate person. I will also assemble it under the eye of our local A&P or pay him to do the assembly and have all the work properly signed off. Of course anything that I can do myself will help me to cut my expenses which at this point is important.

As for my background, it's not in aviation but I spent a dozen years as an automotive machinist and have paid my dues in that industry. It includes rebuilding thousands of cylinder heads, grinding crankshafts, spending time at the CK-10 automatic hone in a union shop and machining/rebulding many hundreds of engines. I've run several machine shops. I've done race engine work and have a flow bench in my shop. This is not to say that I'm an expert at aircraft engines, just that I have a pretty good working relationship with engine work in general. So I figure that if I read the manuals and ask questions I probably won't get in over my head.

Jim Rosenow
07-19-2012, 08:37 AM
Sounds like you have a plan, Eric. Like I said, my comments were mostly for the next 'wannabe-first-time-owner'.

If you're SWPC, I'm sure you know that Steve Pierce in Graham, TX is a good resource for SWPC stuff. His Daddy Gilbert raised him on 'em from a pup.

Jim

Bugs66
07-19-2012, 01:02 PM
Sorry to hear about unexpected expenses. Just a side note to those who want to own a flying airplane while they work on a homebuilt. Don't do it. Those that do rarely finish their project. Not having an airplane to fly is the biggest motivator to get your homebuilt done. Not to mention additional incentive of avoiding expenses like this can ruin your budget. If you want to fly, rent a plane or fly your friends. My 2 cents.

Racegunz
07-20-2012, 06:32 AM
AH a thread that mirrors my experience, I, although ,would indeed blame the shop, 5k for a tri pacer annual???? well let me tell you it's our bretheren pilots not just the FAA that wants less pilots in the air. I've spent the last year plus parting out and building (from the existing fuse skeleton) an experimental I bought, it had been flying for 12 years but no AP would sign off on it without thousands in work all because they didn;t know the history and ect. ect. Someday I'll get my AP and hopefully can make a difference with pilots. I hope to go halves on a Mooney soon but only because it's local and the AP/IA that will do the annual has done so for the last 10 plus years. Good luck and don't give in and don't give that shop anymore work.

martymayes
07-20-2012, 06:50 AM
Spending $5k on a 50+ y/o airplane to get it to a mimimum acceptable level of airworthiness is not unusual. Hard to comment on whose at fault for what without details. One thing is for sure, the owner and IA had different expectations going in to the annual. Also very common because nobody wants to communicate until the invoice is written.

Bill Greenwood
07-20-2012, 08:08 AM
Eric I don't think your problem is that the airplane was certified. That just means it met some minimum standards back then. Maybe you can save some money doing some of the work yourself, but to be safe that work still has to be done at a reasonable level. Compression of only 40to 45 is pretty low and almost certainly something in there is worn. Maybe rings, maybe a valve, but it is unlikely to fix itself. And you say, "it might be true" as if you think the a a&p is not telling you the truth. You should stand right next to him when he does the compression test and look at the figures on the gauge yourself. One way to tell if the wear is valves is to listen at the exhaust when the pressure is in the cylinder and see if you hear where the air is espcaping. If not valves, put at small amount of oil into the cylinder to seal the rings and retest.

Do you think you could buy a 54 year old automobile, for a rock bottom price, perhaps $2000 and have it be in excellent
shape and not need any service? Wish you could but in airplane terms that is not realistic.

Can you buy a flying RV for $20,000 and if so how good a plane is it?

Still, $5000 for an annual sounds awfully high. What did they do, was it something major like replacing the fabric?

Hope you get it right in the end and enjoy flying.

Eric Marsh
07-20-2012, 09:11 AM
Bill, I think that the compression was low - I'm more interested in why. The engine had less than 100 hours since being gone though. We live in a replace it rather than fix it world and the shop's solution was to replace the cylinders. My approach is to examining them and see if they are in suitable shape to correct the problem without complete replacement and hopefully save myself a thousand or so.

The deal here is that the aircraft had passed the previous annual and I simply did not anticipate this kind of expense. The most major thing that was done is that the bungies were replaced. Fifteen hours went into building an AD log.

I don't think that comparing a $20k (not $2k) Tripacer to a $20k RV is reasonable. The going range for Tripacers tends to be between about $15k-$30k.

Anyhow, I'm heading down now to yank the wings.

martymayes
07-20-2012, 09:37 AM
Eric, I'm curious. Was the annual inspection completed?

Eric Marsh
07-20-2012, 04:27 PM
I believe that it's still open while I get these issues sorted out.

tom_walter
07-20-2012, 04:38 PM
Mike Busch had an excellent column in the June 2012 Sport Aviation on one owners "low compression" reading. A recent article by Mike outlined ground rules for shops doing annuals, well written. Not sure what month that was.

I'm slowly building my Bearhawk, but keep looking for a "cheap plane, something to fly while building". Uh, I think I remember why I'm building after reading everyone's comments.

Tom

link to article:
http://www.oshkosh365.org/saarchive/eaa_articles/2012_6_11.pdf

tom_walter
07-20-2012, 04:59 PM
Two articles by Mike Busch worth reading:

"Is your engine airworthy?"
http://www.oshkosh365.org/saarchive/eaa_articles/2010_4_25.pdf

Talks about why NOT to trust compression readings.

How to flunk an annual Inspection
http://www.oshkosh365.org/saarchive/eaa_articles/2012_3_13.pdf


I'll keep looking for the one about annuals and dealing with shops.

Tom

Eric Marsh
07-20-2012, 05:19 PM
Tom, thanks for the links. I just read the one about compression. My oil consumption has gone from about a quart every 3 hours to one about every 5 1/2 as the engine has broken in. The FAA inspector is going by Lycoming's statement that anything under 80/60 is un-airworthy. I suppose if you are going by the book you are going by the book. I was doing a little math in my head and inserting some guesses into the variables and here's my line of though.

You have a 160 hp engine where two cylinders are at 50% compression (for the sake of round numbers). What is that going to do to the production of power? My experience with cars is that you might feel a low cylinder at idle but not at higher speeds because there's less time for the compression to leak down. Undoubtably it's not as good as the perfect cylinder but how bad is it? Anyhow, lets say just for the sake of argument (and this may be way off) that 50% compression equates into a 50% power loss. So two holes are making 20 hp each instead of 40 hp and the 160 hp engine is only making 120.

That's almost as much as the first year Tripacer made (125 hp) and it's more than the Tripacer Colt made with it's 108 hp engine.

Be that as it will. It's a moot point at this time anyway.

The wings are off and she's ready to come home.

2280

tom_walter
07-20-2012, 05:34 PM
Irony is they are not at 50% compression.

Once warmed up, they will seal up nicely, and you have full power. If you climbed out at 800 fpm, that is a strong engine!

I suspect if most mechanics tested the compression after a full rebuild, they would be shocked to see low numbers. Sigh, as the article from Mike points out time to look at the complete engine, not just a compression reading.

Tom Downey
07-20-2012, 06:09 PM
Read what you can about dynamic compression, where the leak can't loose enough air in the time it takes to make the compression stroke and ignition. which isn't enough to effect the operation of the engine.

The guidance given by the FAA is only that. but it is thought of by many A&P-IAs as law.

Kyle Boatright
07-20-2012, 07:07 PM
Read what you can about dynamic compression, where the leak can't loose enough air in the time it takes to make the compression stroke and ignition. which isn't enough to effect the operation of the engine.

The guidance given by the FAA is only that. but it is thought of by many A&P-IAs as law.

Tom is absolutely right here. Low compression doesn't mean the engine is necessarily down on power. However, something is amiss in those two cylinders - bad rings, stuck rings, bad valve, etc. A ring could unstick. Or a defective ring could break and allow chunks of iron to fall into your sump - that could get really expensive.

Tom - what does a mechanic typically charge to pull and reinstall a Lycoming cylinder, assuming no work is done to the cylinder? I realize the baffles are probably as much trouble to remove as the cylinder itself.

Eric Marsh
07-20-2012, 07:42 PM
I most certainly wouldn't have let it ride. The problem would have been diagnosed and fixed whatever the cause. I just wanted to be able to make the seven minute flight home before doing that work rather than having to take her apart and bring her home on a trailer.

tom_walter
07-20-2012, 08:28 PM
Article I was looking for earlier:

Decision Point by Mike Busch inn the July 2012 SA Issue.

http://www.oshkosh365.org/saarchive/eaa_articles/2012_7_12.pdf

Tom Downey
07-20-2012, 10:06 PM
Tom - what does a mechanic typically charge to pull and reinstall a Lycoming cylinder, assuming no work is done to the cylinder? I realize the baffles are probably as much trouble to remove as the cylinder itself. It is usually charged by the shop rate which varies. but it may take all day depending upon how easy the exhaust comes apart. how badly the hold down nuts are rusted it's always more than you plan for.

WLIU
07-21-2012, 06:19 PM
To the point of the question - I budget up to 4 shop hours to pull and replace a cylinder. The last cylinder that I pulled took about an hour to undo the exhaust system for that side of the engine, undo the intake for that cylinder, undo the ignition harness, remove the spark plugs, spin the prop until both valves were closed, and undo the cylinder base nuts. Putting it all back together correctly takes more time but not a whole lot more. Most of the extra time is checking/setting the dry tappet clearance. So I almost always get it done, or see it done, sooner than my estimate. Just apply a good dose of Kroil to the exhaust nuts and don't break a stud off.

The price for the overhaul of a cylinder is usually in the $400 range, plus you often have to add the cost of a new exhaust valve, a new piston, and a new set of rings. On a mid-time engine that just is leaking past the exhaust valve, I have been able to just get the valve seats redone, the valves cleaned up, the bore checks OK, paint, and done. If you catch the problem early and no new parts are required, it is not expensive in aircraft terms. If you have to buy an exhaust valve for a Lyco, then the price starts climbing.

So if you are having a good day, in my neighborhood you can pull a cylinder, have it worked on, and put it back on ready to go flying for maybe $750.

Hope this info helps,

Wes
N78PS

WLIU
07-21-2012, 06:25 PM
After thinking about what has been posted here, I have a question - What is the shop rate that is being charged here? Is this an antique airplane in a jet shop? In my neighborhood, $5000 buys over 55 hours of shop time.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

Kyle Boatright
07-21-2012, 07:08 PM
So if you are having a good day, in my neighborhood you can pull a cylinder, have it worked on, and put it back on ready to go flying for maybe $750.

Hope this info helps,

Wes
N78PS

Thanks for the input. The only time I paid to have a cylinder removed (IIRC) and got a new exhaust valve, it was surprisingly inexpensive. That was 15 years ago and the mechanic was a good guy, but I swear, it was cheap, cheap, cheap, like $250 or something. My partner and I were both shocked at how inexpensive it was, and you post confirms that either we got the deal of the century or maybe we weren't smart enough to understand what we paid for. This was on an 0-235 L2C, by the way.

Tom Downey
07-21-2012, 10:02 PM
The price for the overhaul of a cylinder is usually in the $400 range, plus you often have to add the cost of a new exhaust valve, a new piston, and a new set of rings. On a mid-time engine that just is leaking past the exhaust valve, I have been able to just get the valve seats redone, the valves cleaned up, the bore checks OK, paint, and done. If you catch the problem early and no new parts are required, it is not expensive in aircraft terms. If you have to buy an exhaust valve for a Lyco, then the price starts climbing.

Wes
N78PS

The last 4 Lycoming 0-360 cylinders I sent out for overhaul came back with +.005 pistons rings pistons, piston pins, new valves and springs keepers, and the cost was pocket change over $4500 plus shipping.

Eric Marsh
07-22-2012, 07:23 AM
In my case the original mechanic said that he would do the work for free, I just need to provide parts. I should have the airplane home tomorrow and I'll start looking at it then.

Mike Berg
07-22-2012, 10:59 AM
Not to say mechancs can't make mistakes. I bought a AP/IA "rebuilt to zero time specs" A65 engine out east. The guy put standard rings in a .015 hole (it was even marked on top of the piston). The log said the ring gaps were checked but either he was blind or didn't do it so of course I wound up with a soft cylinder. When I called him on it he had a 'memory loss'.

Eric Marsh
07-24-2012, 10:26 AM
The exhaust valve on #1 is leaking for sure.

I don't know why but the plugs on the right side always look lean and on the left side they look good. #1 has been particularly bad. My EGT thermocouple is on #4 and I've been leaning to it. I think that after this is done I should move it to #1. But why that cylinder runs lean is a mystery to me.

martymayes
07-24-2012, 10:50 AM
check it for air leaks

Eric Marsh
07-24-2012, 11:02 AM
I will - I'm going to be all over it when it goes back together. Anything in the intake tract that could cause unequal fuel distribution?

WLIU
07-24-2012, 05:28 PM
A Lyco engine has a central intake plenum integrated with the oil sump. All of the intake risers are close in length and the design results in relatively even fuel air distribution to the cylinders. So I agree with the poster who said check all of your intake gaskets and rubber parts.

If you have a leaking exhaust valve you are likely into replacing a valve guide. That is a common repair and if the rest of the cylinder looks OK, there is no reason do do more than than. You can reuse the piston and rings so long as you do not hone the bore. Clean up the valve and reinstall after re-cutting the valve seat. Relatively inexpensive repair to do.

Best of luck,

Wes

Eric Marsh
07-26-2012, 10:37 AM
I pulled the valve cover from #3 and it's clear that heat is being carried into the exhaust spring. I imagine that it's on it's way to being sacked. I'm still trying to get my head around why the cylinder with the lowest compression is the one with leanest looking plug. One would think that the plug would look fouled from incomplete or poor burning.

Is there a way to get the cylinders (narrow deck) off without buying the specialty wrenches? It's not that I mind buying the wrenches, but rather that I've got a borrowed trailer and want to minimize the amount of time that I need to hang on to it. Once the cylinders are off I plan to haul my fuselage back to the airport from my shop. Ordering wrenches will probably slow things down a by few days.

2294

Eric Marsh
07-26-2012, 11:12 AM
I found some other articles of interest at http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_56_before_you_yank_that_jug_197497-1.html and http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SB03-3.pdf.

Mike Berg
07-26-2012, 12:54 PM
First of all, I'm not an A & P but I'm a journeyman diesel mechanic with over 40 years of experience working with all kinds of engines, most a lot more complicated than your typical aircraft engine. Having said that, I've had good luck on some engines pulling both plugs and shining a 'bend a light' into the cylinder from the bottom plug hole. It's possible (in some cases) to examine most of the valve face and seat with the cam on the high side and the valve open. One other thought: I used to own a Cherokee 140 with a 150 Lycoming and took it in for an annual. The engine had less than 500 hours since major. For some reason, I had a couple of cylinders that were about 60/80 according to his leakage tester and appeared to be blowby. He sort of insisted that the cylinders needed to come off for repair but I insisted that we run a cranking compression test. The compressions were all even at around 130 psi if I remember correctly. At that point he signed it off. That was probably 20 years ago and that engine is still running with the same cylinders as far as I know (and passing annuals). Point is: don't be too quick to jerk the cylinder, run it for awhile and recheck. Remember the piston is only in the TDC position of a millisecond when the engine is running and you have a lot more pressure (than 80 psi) behind the rings to seal to the cylinder with the 'firing pressures' of combustion .Obviously, if the exhaust or intake valves have a constant leak or oil consumption is a problem that's a different story but I've seen a lot of cylinders pulled when things should have been checked out further. Just my .02 cents.....

Eric Marsh
07-27-2012, 07:08 AM
With even a little air in the cylinders there is a lot of leakage through the exhaust valves. I don't see any indication that they are burning though. I'm guessing the guides are lose. But it's easy enough to pull things and take a look. In fact all I need is for those specialty base nut wrenches to arrive and I'm good to go.

nrpetersen
07-27-2012, 10:47 PM
If the guides are not loose - might you be a victim of debris from the top plug being removed first before a compression test? This was first suggested by John Thorpe. You have to run the engine for a couple of hrs to hammer it out of there, & then recheck compression via the bottom plugs.

Anybody else heard of this?

Racegunz
07-28-2012, 06:38 AM
I was thinking of your comment wondering why the lowest compression cylinder might be lean? Can you put a dial indicator on the rocker and check the lift of the intake /exhaust valves? perhaps the can lobe/s is/are worn? Although with your comment on the guides also make me wonder if #1 and #3 could be affecting one another during the valve overlap, do you have the cross-over exhaust or the regular style?

Tom Downey
07-28-2012, 09:02 AM
Before you pull the cylinder, do the rope trick, and check the guides you may simply be able to ream the guides back to standard, and be done. the carbon deposits may be holding the valve open.

rosiejerryrosie
07-29-2012, 04:58 AM
OK, I'm gonna show my total and complete ignorance, but, what is the "rope trick"? I may need it someday....

martymayes
07-29-2012, 05:40 AM
It's a method of cleaning up valve stems/guides to reduce stickyness without removing the cylinder. Although it sounds like an improvised procedure, Lycoming has a service instuction (#1425) that describes how to perfrom the process.

tom_walter
07-29-2012, 08:52 AM
OK, I'm gonna show my total and complete ignorance, but, what is the "rope trick"? I may need it someday....

Remove the upper spark plug. Rotate prop so piston is towards the bottom of the cylinder. Feed in lots of rope into the spark plug hole, once you have OVER 10' of rope in there rotate the prop so the piston is compressing against the rope. You will feel the piston against the rope as you move the prop back, but that rope is now pressing against the bottom of the valve holding it in place. Tie a knot in the other end, so a helper does push all the rope into the hole! (yes, it happened).

Another method, put the piston at bottom dead center (BDC) center and use an air compressor to pressurize the cylinder. If the piston is at TDC the prop will swing with extreme force (enough to kill you!), hence the rope trick is safer to work around.

Compress the spring, and give a good tab to the valve spring hat, and with luck the valve retainers will pop out. Caution, I pack some red shop towels around the valve retainers - often they are stuck, and will fly off to parts unknown when you pop them out. Use caution so you do not loose them.


EDIT:
http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1425a.pdf

Comment about prop

Eric Marsh
08-02-2012, 05:26 PM
It might be a good thing I brought the airplane home in pieces. I put one of the wings on my workbench to do some fabric repair and found this on one of the aileron pulleys that was replaced. This is after I saw the same thing on the other wing in the shop and pointed it out. I'm going to look all the work over very carefully.

2331

Eric Marsh
08-02-2012, 05:33 PM
I was thinking of your comment wondering why the lowest compression cylinder might be lean? Can you put a dial indicator on the rocker and check the lift of the intake /exhaust valves? perhaps the can lobe/s is/are worn? Although with your comment on the guides also make me wonder if #1 and #3 could be affecting one another during the valve overlap, do you have the cross-over exhaust or the regular style?

Sure, I'll check the lift on the cam. Might as well since I'm into the motor now.

Racegunz
08-02-2012, 09:01 PM
All I can say about that picture of the pulley is A/P? pfffhtt! This was done on the recent 5k annual correct? I'd report the find to the FSDO, not that it would help. All I can say Eric is I feel your pain, and your experience as well as mine and countless others is what I believe is the real problem with declining GA numbers.

Eric Marsh
08-05-2012, 08:35 AM
Yeah, as they say, it sucks. I pulled two cylinders and the accessory case to verify the oil pump AD. The guy I bought the aircraft from said that the engine was rebuilt and all ADs complied with. Not so. As I mentioned previously, I've rebuilt hundreds if not over 1000 automotive engines and so I know what "rebuilt" (or remanufactured) means. What I found I might call "overhauled." There is a distinction. Well, all I want to do is get this thing legal and safe but I do think I'll report the cotter key. That is potentially life threatening which goes beyond what I am willing to tolerate.

Tom Downey
08-05-2012, 08:51 AM
I do think I'll report the cotter key. That is potentially life threatening which goes beyond what I am willing to tolerate.

Unless the A&P-IA signed the aircraft off as airworthy, the FAA has nothing to prove he did any thing wrong.

After all didn't you remove the aircraft from their facility before they were done?

Right wrong or any other way the FAA won't do any thing.

martymayes
08-05-2012, 09:01 AM
I've rebuilt hundreds if not over 1000 automotive engines and so I know what "rebuilt" (or remanufactured) means. What I found I might call "overhauled" There is a distinction.

Yes there is. For aviation puposes, those terms are specifically defined in 43.2. Misunderstand starts when those specific definitions are not used.

martymayes
08-05-2012, 09:06 AM
Unless the A&P-IA signed the aircraft off as airworthy, the FAA has nothing

I asked earlier in the thread what was recorded in the records and never got an answer. But I agree, the plane was disasembled and removed from the shop so even if recorded, the shops's work has been superceded. Not much for the FAA to do other than follow up to make sure when the airplane is returned to service, it is done so IAW the regs.

Eric Marsh
08-05-2012, 10:19 AM
I asked earlier in the thread what was recorded in the records and never got an answer. But I agree, the plane was disasembled and removed from the shop so even if recorded, the shops's work has been superceded. Not much for the FAA to do other than follow up to make sure when the airplane is returned to service, it is done so IAW the regs.

That's worth knowing. So be it.

Eric Marsh
08-05-2012, 10:21 AM
Yes there is. For aviation puposes, those terms are specifically defined in 43.2. Misunderstand starts when those specific definitions are not used.

Well if nothing else I'm getting an education from this.

martymayes
08-05-2012, 11:01 AM
Well if nothing else I'm getting a ["hands on"] education from this.

Which is the best kind!

Eric Marsh
08-05-2012, 11:16 AM
Which is the best kind!

True - I actually like working on my own projects. I find that it inspires confidence when I've done my own inspection and understand the strengths and weaknesses of each of the parts that I've held in my own hands. It's not that I necessarily don't trust others to do my work... but, yeah, I don't. Besides, I'm enjoying working on this 0-320.

I bought an airplane from a guy who swears that the engine was rebuilt and all the ADs were complied with. He lied. Repeatedly. I spent a lot of money on an annual and then found a potentially life threatening oversight on the part of the shop that did the work. You probably see why I'm strongly motivated to be able to legally do my own work. Once this is out of my shop I'm going to start assembling the fuel tanks for my RV-6. I'm looking forward to the day that she flies.

Tom Downey
08-05-2012, 08:41 PM
I asked earlier in the thread what was recorded in the records and never got an answer. But I agree, the plane was disasembled and removed from the shop so even if recorded, the shops's work has been superceded. Not much for the FAA to do other than follow up to make sure when the airplane is returned to service, it is done so IAW the regs.

What they more than likely will do is inspect the aircraft, see that it is un-airworthy, and remove the airworthiness certificate until it passes their inspection to re-issue the airworthiness certificate.

WLIU
08-06-2012, 11:23 AM
Actually, the FAA does not do anything like that. They are not in the business of inspecting partially disassembled airplanes. Once your airplane has been issued an airworthiness certificate, it has one forever unless you request a new one for any one of a number of reasons. More than one airworthiness certificate and data plate has been repaired into a legally flying airplane.

What the FAA DOES do is require that you have a current annual inspection. To get that log book entry an A&P IA has to look at the airframe and engine and sign off that all of the AD's are current and the ship is airworthy, of which one criteria is that it meets factory specs and has paperwork for any alterations. So the violation that they write up is that the pilot was flying an unairworthy aircraft, and maybe careless and reckless.

So the original poster needs to have a really good relationship with an AI before starting to put stuff back together, and plan on regular consultations along the way. With that working relationship anyone can turn a pile of rust flakes back into a flying and legal airplane. After all, Sport Aviation has regular articles about folks who do that.

Patience is advised though. In a project you have to enjoy the journey as the destination is never as close as you would like.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

cub builder
09-04-2012, 02:34 PM
Hopefully you had the logs signed with exceptions listed. If you choose not to have all the repairs done by the shop doing the annual inspection and the inspection was completed, the IA is still obliged to sign the logs for the annual, then list the items that need to be repaired or addressed. Those items listed can be signed off by an A&P. That way you at least have something for the money you spent and whatever local A&P you are working with can sign for the repairs as well as reassembly of the aircraft. I know you're gripe seems to be with the $5000 bill, but you haven't really listed what they did that was unnecessary or you were unhappy with other than a cotter pin.

You should take advantage of this and make it educational for yourself (and others). A better pre-buy inspection would have found the engine issues. The AD research is something that had to be done if it wasn't already in the logs. Again, that would have been found during a competent pre-buy inspection. If you're a decent mechanic, you can do the pre-buy inspection your self. Don't just take the guy's word that all the ADs are up to date. Or, you could have done the AD search yourself and compared it to the logs, then questioned the owner before you bought. This year you could have done the research and presented the data to the shop. Those guys aren't having a lot of fun at your expense doing the AD searches and I don't know of any aircraft mechanic that is getting rich in this market.

[Soap Box Mode On]
I hear lots of pilots gripe about the cost of the mechanics and how they want to build their own planes so they won't have to pay a mechanic. However, those same pilots won't take the initiative to do the simple research and work for themselves on the planes they are flying. They don't seem to realize that they are paying for the mechanic's knowledge and experience. Building a plane doesn't relieve you from the responsibility of doing proper maintenance. You still need to do AD and SB research on your engine, carb, mags, etc. And owning a certificated aircraft doesn't prevent you from being involved and knowledgeable about your plane. I know many mechanics don't want to do owner assisted annuals. If that's the case, find a mechanic you can work with. Personally, I don't work on planes where the owner isn't involved. When I owned certificated aircraft and didn't have my A&P license, I always found a mechanic I could work with and was always involved in the maintenance on my planes. Consequently, I never had a high $$ annual.
[Soap Box Mode Off]

I'm really not just going off on you about your experience. I am sympathetic to having a big unexpected bill presented to you. I do understand your frustration. However, there is so much that you could have done to prevent it. Hopefully you can take what you have learned from this experience and apply it moving forward. You sound like you've got a lot of engine and mechanical experience. You just need to partner with an A&P as a mentor to help you stay within legal and safety bounds while you learn the differences between you drag engines and the incredibly simple engines we have on our aircraft. Annual Inspections do not have to be a bank account bending experience.

-CubBuilder