SNF vs Copperstate?

[brian]

Last year, my wife & I tried to fly from NH to Copperstate (VFR). We got as far as southwest Indiana, then got bogged down in bad weather & burned up a few of our allocated days there, until we ended up spending a couple more days dodging weather getting back to NH. We'd hoped to try it again this year, but now I'm realizing that, to allocate a full 2 weeks of vacation this time to make it there and back means I have to choose between our planned trip to AirVenture in a few weeks and going to Copperstate, especially since I already flew to SNF this spring.

So, my question is about Copperstate and how much effort it's going to be worth getting there. I realize it isn't going to compare to AirVenture Oshkosh, but I'm wondering how it'll compare to SNF, which I'm familiar with. How long does it take to see & do everything at Copperstate? My thinking is that, if I can see most everything at Copperstate in, say, one day, then that makes it less worth the large window of vacation time I'll need to allocate to get there & back VFR. But if I'll need all 3 days to see & do everything, that'll make it more worth it.

Can people give me some idea as to what to expect at Copperstate, especially as compared to SNF?

[Eric Page]

I've never been to Sun-N-Fun so I can't compare, but I live about an hour's drive from Casa Grande and have been to Copperstate a couple of times. The last time I went, I had breakfast at home, lunch at the show, and dinner on the way home. I didn't feel like I missed anything I wanted to see, and I attended a short intro to composites seminar.

Unless you want to attend a lot of seminars and need more than one day to do that, you can easily see what there is to see in one day; less if a particular section doesn't interest you. It's well run, but it's not a huge show. Judging from the magazine coverage of Sun-N-Fun, Copperstate is nowhere near its size.

[Bill Greenwood]

It has been a few years since I went to either, but I think Sun N Fun or Osh has a lot more to offer than Copperstate.
First, Phoenix is a hot, dry, polluted, and except for irrigation, mostly barren area. It is a big city, with all the ills, traffic and crime of big cites. Copperstate is not in Phoenix ,but nearby. Osh, is a nice green place, with with lakes and a river. Peopel might and do come there to vacation even without airplanes. Lakeland is less so, but still not a dusty and barren as Az.
Of coures. both Sun N Fun and Osh are week long conventions, big and bigger, (maybe too big ?) and with much to see and do.
Years ago , when Carl Schmieder was involved, the predcesser of Copperstate had a good number of warbirds, and I enjoyed it a few years.
After Carl passed it changed . I was told by the director that if I brought a warbird to what was then Copperstate, that there was not a parking space for me, much less any reimbursement of free room or fuel. I got the hint.
From what I hear of Copperstate now, it has pretty much been taken over by the tight flight suit crowd, and is mostly for pay acro types.
That is my impression, haven't been back in years. There are a number of other places that seem a lot more welcoming.

By the way, advocates of Phoenix like to say , "but it's a dry heat". Sure, but it's dry in my microwave also and it will sure cook anything in there. 110 degreees is hot as hello, no matter wet or dry.

I can't fathoom why anyonen the northeast would fly all the way to Az. There is a great show, weather allowing, in a nice greeen place at Geneseo, N. Y. But then again it won't "e dry heat".

There is one attraction near Phoenix, major glider flying near there at AZ Soaring at Estrella, really good school or at least is was years ago when I was there.

[Bill]

First of all, I have to agree that Phoenix is the most despicable part of Arizona. At night, you can see the Phoenix light pollution dome from anywhere in the state of Arizona:mad:.

However, Casa Grande is a small city (population 50,000) located 50 miles South of Phoenix so most of the ills of Phoenix, but not all, haven't permeated Casa Grande yet. Since CopperState is now held at the end of October (October 25th through the 27th this year), temperatures are far more moderate that Bill Greenwood alluded to. Last year at CopperState, the highs were in the mid 80s and lows in the mid 60s, so its really quite comfortable (Casa Grande doesn't have all of the concrete that in Phoenix holds the daytime heat and releases it at night).

Since moving to Casa Grande, CopperState no longer resembles Bill Greenwood's recollections. Now, warbirds are welcome with CAFs B-17 showing up most years. There is no formal airshow so you can arrive and leave when you like. At most, they let the Yaks, AT-6s, Stearmans and the occasional P-51 do a low pass or two when they feel so inclinded. CopperState gets a good number of experimental, vintage and antique aircraft along with whatever people fly to come and see the show. Its probably more like the EAA Conventions that were held in Rockford and certainly no match for SNF or Oshkosh. And, yes, you can see it in one day. I have an hour and 1/2 drive to get there; if I leave at 8 AM, I can see everything, take in a forum or two, and be back home at 8 PM.

[Joe Delene]

Flying from NH to AZ for the Copperstate fly-in would take some dedication. If it was me I would allocate my time & flying $$$ somewhere else, unless you had other activities along the way. Nothing against going, just seems like more bang for your aviation buck is available closer to home.

[Bill Greenwood]

Well, I as I said I have not been to Casa Grande, and I wasn't sure how far south of Phx it was. But I have been to Estrella and it is hot as a fresh cooked pizza. Now for the idea the CGZ is cooler than Phx, I just looked up the SA report and it is now ( 4:45 Co. time) officially 108 there.,and to me that is pretty hot, even if it is a "dry heat". The idea that you can go to PHX and then some farther south and be cooler sounds dubious to me.

Now, maybe just maybe, in Oct a cold wave comes through and it gets below 90, at least at night, but I have flown gliders near there , spring and fall, and the only time I recall it not being hot was when there was a flash flood.

The year that I was informally deinvited to Copperstate,the explanation was that they didn't have any more money as most of what they had was going to a local guy who was said to be a big star in the for pay acro world. I don't recall his name, but I'd barely heard of him then and don't think he has become world champion yet, as far as I know. But he sure did have good P R.

When Carl was part of the staff, we had some really good times there, on and off the flying part, and there were some real veterans that were famous beyond the range of their own mirrors. I recall one night talking at lenght with a member of the "Black Sheep" Corsair pilots.

There are some nice folks at the CAF base at Mesa, Falcon Field, and Chandler is a nice airport. I can't say anything good about the local sheriff, however.

[FloridaJohn]

Well, I as I said I have not been to Casa Grande, and I wasn't sure how far south of Phx it was. But I have been to Estrella and it is hot as a fresh cooked pizza. Now for the idea the CGZ is cooler than Phx, I just looked up the SA report and it is now ( 4:45 Co. time) officially 108 there.,and to me that is pretty hot, even if it is a "dry heat". I don't live anywhere near there, but it is safe to say that the temperature at the end of June has very little in common with the temperature at the end of October. According to the almanac at weatherunderground.com, the average high temperature for October 25 (the start date of the fly-in this year) is 78 degrees F, and the average low temperature is 51 degrees F. The record high for that date is 91 degrees, and the record low is 44 degrees. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

[Bill Greenwood]

Dear Florida John,
if you are in Florida, not only does the heat in Az, not sound too bad , but it won't feel too bad from 1800 miles or so away.
But it is another thing entirely if you are actually there and in it.

Now if you believe that the high temp there in Oct is really only 91, you ought to buy some property around Phoenix. I think you can get it at a pretty good discount now. And official temperatures are taken in the shade,( if there was such a thing in a place that has almost no trees) so out on the pavement of the ramp in the blazing sun it will be perhaps 25 degrees hotter. It can actually get hot in Colorado, just had over 100 degrees a few days in Denver , a new record. But it gets down the perhaps 65 or so at night. Phoenix is the only place that I have ever been where it can and often is 105 degrees after 9 oclock at night.

[Bill]

Well, I as I said I have not been to Casa Grande, and I wasn't sure how far south of Phx it was. But I have been to Estrella and it is hot as a fresh cooked pizza. Now for the idea the CGZ is cooler than Phx, I just looked up the SA report and it is now ( 4:45 Co. time) officially 108 there.,and to me that is pretty hot, even if it is a "dry heat". The idea that you can go to PHX and then some farther south and be cooler sounds dubious to me.

Now, maybe just maybe, in Oct a cold wave comes through and it gets below 90, at least at night, but I have flown gliders near there , spring and fall, and the only time I recall it not being hot was when there was a flash flood.

There are some nice folks at the CAF base at Mesa, Falcon Field, and Chandler is a nice airport. I can't say anything good about the local sheriff, however.

The temperatures I gave were the actual recorded temperature ranges during CopperState last year when it didn't get above 90 during the day and fell into the 60s at night. That's one of the reasons that they moved the dates to the end of October. Previously, CopperState was held in early October when the temperatures do get get well into the 90s and did discourage attendance. Phoenix stays hotter because it modifies the local climate, but also starts cooling (a relative term) off in October.

As for the local sheriff, what else would you expect from Phoenix and Maricopa County? Fortunately, Casa Grande is in Pinal County, whose sheriff has his own peculiarities.

[brian]

Many thanks to you all for clarifying this for me. It's pretty clear now that a journey requiring 3 days each way, at best, to Copperstate isn't going to be the biggest bang for our vacation buck. Somehow, I'd been thinking Copperstate was like a western SNF, so I 'm glad you all pointed out that it's much smaller, can be taken in during a day, and thus isn't really worth the effort & expense of a VFR flight from NH. Maybe someday we'll get there, but this year we're going to AirVenture, where I expect to be volunteering with the Welcome Wagon again this year. Thanks to all! (trip report for our attempt last year is HERE (http://meyette.us/Copperstate2011.htm), for anyone interested)

[FloridaJohn]

Dear Florida John,
if you are in Florida, not only does the heat in Az, not sound too bad , but it won't feel too bad from 1800 miles or so away.
But it is another thing entirely if you are actually there and in it.

Now if you believe that the high temp there in Oct is really only 91, you ought to buy some property around Phoenix. I think you can get it at a pretty good discount now.
I don't just believe it, I know it to be true. But you don't have to believe me if you don't want to. Check it out for yourself. Here, I'll help you. This is the yearly temperatures at Casa Grande Municipal (KCGZ):

2122
This graph is from here (http://www.wunderground.com/NORMS/DisplayNORMS.asp?AirportCode=KCGZ&SafeCityName=KCGZ&StateCode=AZ&Units=none), if you want to check it out for yourself. The vertical blue line is today, so you can see the temperature is pretty much near the peak this time of year. If you are interesting in only October 25th, you can go here (http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCGZ/2011/10/25/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA)and see the temperatures I posted earlier.

I have presented you with facts and data, you can provide your own data that shows what you think to be true and I will look at that. I think you will find, if you bother to do the slightest amount of research, that I am correct and you are wrong.


I was told by the director that if I brought a warbird to what was then Copperstate, that there was not a parking space for me, much less any reimbursement of free room or fuel. I got the hint.
I think this has more to do with why you are so down on this particular fly-in than the weather does. You won't get any sympathy from me, though. I have yet to attend a fly-in where anyone is willing to pay me to attend. Not only do I have to pay for my own fuel, I also have to pay my own entrance fee, and buy my own food. So, I'm sorry your gravy train ended, and maybe I would be upset if I no longer got something for free, but the majority of people have to pay their own way.

[Eric Page]

First, Phoenix is a hot, dry, polluted, and except for irrigation, mostly barren area. It is a big city, with all the ills, traffic and crime of big cites.
Largely true, though what it has to do with Casa Grande, apart from being hot and dry, escapes me.



There is one attraction near Phoenix, major glider flying near there at AZ Soaring at Estrella, really good school or at least is was years ago when I was there.

Arizona Soaring (http://www.azsoaring.com/)is still in business. I got a commercial add-on there a few years ago. Great people, good training, reasonable prices, and -- dare I say it -- weather that's conducive to training almost every day. It's about equidistant between Phoenix and Casa Grande, just west of Maricopa [map (http://goo.gl/maps/ZDf1)].



I can't say anything good about the local sheriff, however.

Go, Joe!!


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Brian, if you're interested in a trans-continental cross country to attend a good airshow next year, you should think about the Arlington Fly-In and Sport Aviation Convention (http://www.arlingtonflyin.org/) at Arlington, WA (KAWO (http://airnav.com/airport/KAWO)). It's not affiliated with EAA anymore, but it's still a great medium size show. Bigger than Copperstate, smaller than SNF or AVOSH. Plenty of aircraft of all types, and the weather in the Pacific NW this time of the year is usually glorious.

[Bill Greenwood]

Well, Mr. Florida or Mr. John, no last name, you have certainly found me out. I thought that "gravy train" that i had going at the old Copperstate fly in would just last forever, and I'd continue to get rich off it. Nothing boost ones income more than getting a free parking space just for bringing a plane to a fly in.

Now it might surprise you to know that the airshow or flyin might not be paying me just because I am so young, tall, dark, handsome, wise, and charming, although of course I am all those and more so.

It might just have something to do with the reputation and the popularity of the vintage and historic plane that I would be bringing to the show. It might not be your cup of tea, but the plane did win "PEOPLE'S CHOICE" at SUN N Fun which is kind of like 3rd place for best of show. Also won some 1st and 2nd place awards at other smaller EAA shows, like Longmont , Greeley and Steamboat., here in Colorado, as well as some feature stories in Flying and other magazines.

I was giving you credit for being familiar with normal practices in airhows and/or flyins. Perhaps that is not the case, maybe you are new to this or not in that side of aviation, hard to tell about someone when they write under an alias. So, back to some basics.

There are 3 kinds of people that often if not usually get invited and reimbursed to attend an event:
1. Celebrities like maybe Sully and Skiles, or Pappy Boyington or Bob Hoover, or some such famous person, maybe even Harrison Ford.
That certainly is not me.
2. People whose flying ability or performance will entertain or draw a crowd. This includes the many for pay full time aerobatic acts among others, like John Mohr who I think is well worth an appearance fee.
Mostly that is not me, though I have done a few entertainment type flights in a few planes that I was rated in, when the owner needed a pilot.. By no means is it my full time job, nor would I want it to be even if I was at that level. I have never claimed to be the next great star of aviation, and I don't even have a tight flight suit with lot's of sponsor patches, and I don't have a P R agent.
3. People who are invited because of the popular plane they are associated with and can bring to the show. Example it was mentioned the CAF B-17 might come.
It is common practice, at many, though not all, shows to provide some items expense free for these categories, especially no. 3
Now, if you or the folks at Casa Grande can get the B-17 to operate for free, at their own expense,then that is a pretty good sales job.
Let's say you are Nellis Air Force Base, and it is a big anniversary. You want some vintage planes to fill out the show for those to whom just modern noisy smelly jets are not the end all. You want a P-47 to honor the pilot lost in the war who the base is named after and the plane he flew. So you call around and find one in Texas, one in California. The owner and pilot would like to come. Their flight expense is perhaps a minimum of $1800 per hour. So if you have funding you offer $5k or so for the hour or two flight, and this is often negotiable. Either way, it is common, almost always done, that the show will of course provide free rooms, hopefully at a good hotel, some free meals, often a fun group meal and maybe a free rental car, and a fuel allotment, perhaps 200 gal or whatever is expected to be used in the show.
Some shows are of course, smaller and have less money, but almost always they provide room, some food, and show fuel.
In 30 years or so of being a pilot in airshows and aviation events, as well as part of the staff that put on about 10 popular and successful shows, there would be only one or two that I ever heard tell a pilot who wanted to bring a show plane that they didn't even have a parking space for the plane.

You mention that you have to pay when you go to a show. Do you fit in any of the 3 categories above that often get paid to attend?
This year at Osh, I won't be in any of the categories and will be paying for my own expenses.

I hope Casa Grande has a good s SAFEhow and/or fly in. I'd like to check it out, on my own pay of course, but the idea of the 44 degree weather kind of worries me, two of my vintage planes don't have heaters.

[WLIU]

Hello Brian,

A few years ago I flew from NH to the Golden Gate bridge and back in an antique airplane. I stopped at a fly-in in California and spent a few days at the Reno Air Races. Flying that distance you have to enjoy the journey, not just the destination. I can recommend a trip like that, but as you note you need to have a lot of time blocked out and some patience with the weather.

Sun-N-Fun is a great show and for a NH pilot it is at a great time of the year - right about when you really really need a break from the snow. The weather fronts tend to run north-south that time of year so you can watch for the forecast to give you a good couple of days and run down the coast. Navigation is easy - keep the blue on the left and the brown on the right. Florida temps are very comfortable in April.

For what its worth, you can see everything at Sun-N-Fun in a couple of days, so it is not that much bigger than what Copperstate sounds like. But it is closer, relatively speaking, and at a good time of year for a NH pilot.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Bill Greenwood]

In looking at the Copperstate web site, it seems obvious that it has changed from the large shows we used to have at Mesa and Williams, when Carl was involved.
It seems that the one at Casa Grande is a flyin, no show at all, and is focused on the smaller homebuilt type planes. I hope that it draws enough folks to be successful and is safe, and can be enjoyable in its own scale.

[steveinindy]

So far as SNF is concerned how is it for like vendors, etc? I've never been. Is it more like a fly-in (like the way Copper State is described on here) or closer to Oshkosh and other conventions? We are considering SNF next year but have no first hand knowledge of it obviously. I don't think a literally cross-country trip is really in the works for something like Copper State at least until I get the Vireo build completed.

[Bill Greenwood]

SNF is almost a duplicate of Osh , but perhaps about a half smaller. We really only use the part of the airport, pretty much excluding the north side.
The airport is a little smaller also, and it seems to me to be therefor easier to get from one side to the other. You can walk from the warbird tent on the east part around to the west side where the commercial vendor hangars are in perhaps 10 min, much easier than EAA and don't really need a shuttle ride. You can go from the nw part , like homebuilts over to the se part where the ultralights and their runway is likewise in about 15 min.
SF doesn't have the sheer numbers of each type as Osh, but has a pretty good sample of most of it.
Seems to me the vendor food is better at SF, a couple of decent options, but nobody goes to EAA for the food.
Lakeland is ok as a town, IF you are staying in one of the hotel/motels there. There is an abundance of the average mass chain restaurants, and even one gourmet type, which I am going to keep a secret for when and if I return. Like Osh, lodging fills up and many people end up having to drive 30 min to a nearby town. The area is not quite as green and pretty as Osh, many smaller lakes, but is nice enough.
There are lots of nearby airports to fly to or divert to if needed, and many other places to see in the area, and state.
EAA so dominates Osh, more so than at Lakeland. Therefore you can go in a restaurant or a store in Lal and it not be full of EAA or airplane people. Lal seems just a little less friendly and really a little less welcoming than in Wisconsin.
Fresh Florida orange juice tastes a whole lot better, than Wisconsin "we only have Pepsi".

[Kyle Boatright]

So far as SNF is concerned how is it for like vendors, etc? I've never been. Is it more like a fly-in (like the way Copper State is described on here) or closer to Oshkosh and other conventions? We are considering SNF next year but have no first hand knowledge of it obviously. I don't think a literally cross-country trip is really in the works for something like Copper State at least until I get the Vireo build completed.

Steve, it isn't apples to apples, but SnF is basically a small scale Oshkosh. It probably has 25% of the aircraft, workshops, attendance, etc. It has lost much of the grass roots feel that you can still find if you know where to look at Wittman. On the vendor side, most of the major aviation vendors are at both shows.


I can't speak for Copperstate.

[steveinindy]

Steve, it isn't apples to apples, but SnF is basically a small scale Oshkosh. It probably has 25% of the aircraft, workshops, attendance, etc. It has lost much of the grass roots feel that you can still find if you know where to look at Wittman. On the vendor side, most of the major aviation vendors are at both shows.

Thank you Kyle. That's kind of what I figured but I didn't want to assume. Thank you for your input as well Bill.


Fresh Florida orange juice tastes a whole lot better, than Wisconsin "we only have Pepsi".

But Wisconsin does have much better beer. That said, as a Coke drinker, I can't stand the fixation of restaurants on Pepsi up there.

[Zack Baughman]

nobody goes to EAA for the food.

I've heard some people come from as far away as Colorado, just for the deviled eggs. ;)

[steveinindy]

I've heard some people come from as far away as Colorado, just for the deviled eggs. ;)

You can have them Zack. Deviled eggs are one of the few things that the smell of makes me want to vomit...and this is coming from someone who deals with decomposing bodies with a fair amount of regularity.

[Eric Witherspoon]

So far as SNF is concerned how is it for like vendors, etc? I've never been. Is it more like a fly-in (like the way Copper State is described on here) or closer to Oshkosh and other conventions? We are considering SNF next year... I've been following this thread, having been to the three events mentioned - SnF, Copperstate, and Osh - sounds like more recently than some who answered here. Steve - to your question - if you do / have / plan to or will make Osh, there is really no need to spend the large amount of time and money it would take to go anywhere else. I went to SnF when I lived in Florida because it was an easy couple hours' drive. I go / have been bringing my airplane to Copperstate for the past 3 years because that's how long it's been out of Phase I, and CGZ is a mighty 22 minutes' flight from my home base. I have been to Osh 3x in the past 12 years, and am going again this year - each time a mighty expensive, long cross-country pilgrimage to see something that's orders of magnitude bigger and more event- / vendor- / aircraft- / and presentation - packed than any of these other regional events.

That said, any of the regional events are GREAT - if that's what you can get to. But if it's a toss-up of a halfway-cross-the-country trip to a regional fly-in or a halfway-cross-the-country trip to OSH - go for the big one. There is / will be more of whatever you are looking for there than anywhere else on earth.

To another of your points Copperstate does have forums, workshops, & vendors. The big vendor that comes to my mind is Spruce, since it's a day's drive for them to bring a pretty good pile of stuff each year (plus I think they will bring your order for pick-up at the show). Copperstate does have "the usual" workshops - sheet metal/riveting, fabric covering, composite. They also have a couple of dozen forum presentations running all day for Friday & Saturday + an abbreviated schedule on Thursday. Keep in mind, this is a "long weekend" event only - not a whole week. Sunday is "go home" day - no scheduled events.

[steveinindy]

But if it's a toss-up of a halfway-cross-the-country trip to a regional fly-in or a halfway-cross-the-country trip to OSH - go for the big one. There is / will be more of whatever you are looking for there than anywhere else on earth

Yeah, OSH is a five to six hour drive depending on the timing of passing through Chicago. I haven't flown to OSH yet and probably won't until I get the current LSA build done (which, seeing as I have a grand total of two ribs done, will be a while still) Renting an aircraft that is just going to sit for a week doesn't seem like a very smart move financially.

One reason we were considering SnF was because of my fiancee has family in Florida and it's an 'excuse' for a trip. Oshkosh is pretty much an every year "Don't schedule anything for the last week of July" sort of deal. I finally got out of having to attend a family wedding that was unfortunately coinciding with it this year so I will be able to attend after all. Originally, my fiancee suggested that we get married the last week of July next year and I told her "Unless you're wanting to do it in east central Wisconsin, pick another date."


and am going again this year

You've got a beer coming from me then. I appreciate the advice about the different events.