Edge 540 home build equivalent

[rppearso]

Hello all,

I have been pushing hard to try to find a nice pitts S2B to buy to fly aerobatics, however I am finding it is really slim pickens on trade a plane and barnstormers for nice clean pitts S2B's for around 100k. I just cant believe how few pitts S2Bs are up for sale.

Thoughts are now crossing my mind that maybe I should just get a house first with a massive garage and try building an edge 540 equivalent, however I did not see plans in the kit section of EAA for such an air craft. How difficult would it be to build an air frame like this that would support an AEIO-580, I was looking at the classes the EAA puts on in carbon fiber, however I dont think carbon fiber alone will support say the wing to the fusalage so there must be some metal structure underneth the carbon fiber for the bolts to connect to the frame?

Even if I do manage to buy a pitts S2B I would still love to own an actual high performance aerobatic plane. i wonder if I could get a scale model edge 540 and then carve out a scaled up mold in blue foam to mold the carbon fiber too, however the plans would be great.

Thank you.

[steveinindy]

i wonder if I could get a scale model edge 540 and then carve out a scaled up mold in blue foam to mold the carbon fiber too, however the plans would be great.

The answer is 'no' unless you have a death wish. It's not that simple.


however I dont think carbon fiber alone will support say the wing to the fusalage so there must be some metal structure underneth the carbon fiber for the bolts to connect to the frame?

That won't work without some serious engineering work- and probably not even then- for a number of reasons. One of them is the difference in the way metal and composites react to being heated (such as sitting on the ramp) which causes the attachment points to fatigue or just plain tear through the composite. The other point is that, yes, with a proper knowledge of engineering it can be done with solely carbon fiber at least from an airworthiness standpoint. It probably won't be cheap and it probably won't be easy.


Thoughts are now crossing my mind that maybe I should just get a house first with a massive garage and try building an edge 540 equivalent

Do you have the requisite skills necessary to fly something like that? As I understand it (and one of the aerobatic guys will correct me if I am mistaken), the 540 isn't the best plane for a rookie aerobatic pilot because of it's performance abilities.


I would still love to own an actual high performance aerobatic plane

Then start out on something simple and work your up to that level. An inexperienced pilot and "high performance" are not the best things to mix together.

[rppearso]

The answer is 'no' unless you have a death wish. It's not that simple.



That won't work without some serious engineering work- and probably not even then- for a number of reasons. One of them is the difference in the way metal and composites react to being heated (such as sitting on the ramp) which causes the attachment points to fatigue or just plain tear through the composite. The other point is that, yes, with a proper knowledge of engineering it can be done with solely carbon fiber at least from an airworthiness standpoint. It probably won't be cheap and it probably won't be easy.



Do you have the requisite skills necessary to fly something like that? As I understand it (and one of the aerobatic guys will correct me if I am mistaken), the 540 isn't the best plane for a rookie aerobatic pilot because of it's performance abilities.



Then start out on something simple and work your up to that level. An inexperienced pilot and "high performance" are not the best things to mix together.

I am a chemical engineer by disapline so with a little hands on training and supplemental information I think I could do it, that pitts S2B is still for sale so I am pushing to save for that and will train up on the pitts if its still there by the time I pull together the money, I hope this one im looking at checks out because they are starting to become far and few between to find a nice clean S2B and that forces me further into a home build senario, its all well and good to train up on something like an S2B but they have to be avalible for purchase lol. So then I would be flying the pitts for a number of years until the house was built and I could afford the firewall forward components of the carbon fiber I want to build, with that beautiful AEIO-580 sitting there I would be highly motivated to start building a carbon fiber, if it can be done purely with carbon fiber then thats what I would do.

http://www.sportair.com/workshops/Composite%20Construction.html#TopOfPage

http://www.lycoming.com/engines/engine-finder/home.do?action=search

Once I had the firewall forward and the air frame I dont think it would be too big of a deal to rig it up and basic wiring.

As I understand home built aircraft that are flown by the builder can be given annuals by the builder as well, is that correct?

[martymayes]

Even if I do manage to buy a pitts S2B I would still love to own an actual high performance aerobatic plane. i wonder if I could get a scale model edge 540 and then carve out a scaled up mold in blue foam to mold the carbon fiber too, however the plans would be great.

There's a guy one town over from me who builds airplanes based on Jon Staudacher's monoplanes. I'm sure you can find plans for something along those lines.

[steveinindy]

I am a chemical engineer by disapline so with a little hands on training and supplemental information I think I could do it

There's a reason why docs, engineers and lawyers are often reputed to have higher than normal accident rates and it probably has something to do with being more self-confident about their abilities than they probably should be or underestimating the amount of training and constant practice they need to do the really advanced stuff. That is, those fields tend to self-select in a way for the extreme of Type A "can do, nothing's going to stop me" attitudes. At least for certain types of crash scenarios, it may hold true.

I'm not saying that it's the case in your case, but just advising that the aerobatics that an advanced aircraft can do that a basic "starter" aerobatic aircraft can do are not something that should be approached lightly or flippantly because of the precision and skill necessary and the margin of error involved. Find one of the professional airshow pilots who fly the aircraft you want to consider and talk to them about what they feel is necessary to fly that level of aircraft and that level of performance. Then once you think you're ready, go back to someone with that level of skill and have them independently and honestly assess your skills before you step up to where you seem to want to be.

[rppearso]

There's a reason why docs, engineers and lawyers are often reputed to have higher than normal accident rates and it probably has something to do with being more self-confident about their abilities than they probably should be or underestimating the amount of training and constant practice they need to do the really advanced stuff. That is, those fields tend to self-select in a way for the extreme of Type A "can do, nothing's going to stop me" attitudes. At least for certain types of crash scenarios, it may hold true.

I'm not saying that it's the case in your case, but just advising that the aerobatics that an advanced aircraft can do that a basic "starter" aerobatic aircraft can do are not something that should be approached lightly or flippantly because of the precision and skill necessary and the margin of error involved. Find one of the professional airshow pilots who fly the aircraft you want to consider and talk to them about what they feel is necessary to fly that level of aircraft and that level of performance. Then once you think you're ready, go back to someone with that level of skill and have them independently and honestly assess your skills before you step up to where you seem to want to be.

I totally agree, I have an experienced instructor who has time in a pitts and a giles who has agreed to fly the pitts back with me and train me up in it (he is the one that convinced me to get a pitts S2B instead of an S1T and just flying it by the seat of my pants with a PPL and tail wheel endorsement with 80 hrs tt) there is a significant price difference between the two and for something that is not financiable that translates into another lost summer of flying but I dont want to die and leave my wife a widow either. As far as the engineering aspects of the carbon fiber I want to build thats a ways down the road and building a carbon fiber air frame myself will not be without risk. I will first need a huge garage to actually set up shop as well as save for the fire wall forward (AEIO-580 and a carbon fiber prop) and have it sitting in a crate in the corner of the garage that will motivate me to get the air frame done and with 5 months of non flying weather I could probably put a pretty big dent in it each winter and fly the pitts in the summer.

It is frustrating sitting here waiting for this beautiful summer to pass so that I can save the money I need to pick up the S2B to fly it in late fall and then hangar it for the winter. I will be flying out of a muni airport so I will be figuring out how to fly that thing in the winter, I have not digested the fact that I will loose 5 months of flying just because its winter, unless there is a genuine safety reason not to fly a pitts in winter and its just a comfort issue I will fly it. I know F-16 pilots fly up here in the dead of winter and they dont have infloor run way heat so it cant be impossible.

Also engineers are on the low end of the totem pole out of thoes 3 professions which is why I am asking about building one instead of just buying one lol. We make just enough to buy the parts and pieces but not a whole plane unless I want to save for 5-10 years for one lol, so I have to exploit thoes "engineer skills" if im going to hope to pilot a carbon fiber with an engine that can hang off the prop. An edge 540 is about 350k, for the firewall forward i could get that in a crate for around 130k after that its rolls of carbon fiber, resin, a little wiring for basic non gyro instruments and a radio, dont need lights if I only fly it in the day (unless the FAA makes you have them even for expermental), some rigging and a canopy and paint.

[steveinindy]

I'm glad to see that you didn't take that as an offense. I've just buried enough friends- including one whose NTSB report reads literally like the perfect example of everything that is wrong with the current state of homebuilding- that I try to speak up so that people are going in with their eyes open on stuff like this.



with 5 months of non flying weather

Just be sure to brush up your skills in something before the test flights if you complete the plane during those non-flying months. Stick and rudder skills degrade sharply for most of us and I can't imagine that those sorts of planes are very forgiving to that sort of thing.


I know F-16 pilots fly up here in the dead of winter and they dont have infloor run way heat so it cant be impossible.

They also aren't open cockpit aircraft or flying solely because they want to either. ;)

[rppearso]

I'm glad to see that you didn't take that as an offense. I've just buried enough friends- including one whose NTSB report reads literally like the perfect example of everything that is wrong with the current state of homebuilding- that I try to speak up so that people are going in with their eyes open on stuff like this.




Just be sure to brush up your skills in something before the test flights if you complete the plane during those non-flying months. Stick and rudder skills degrade sharply for most of us and I can't imagine that those sorts of planes are very forgiving to that sort of thing.



They also aren't open cockpit aircraft or flying solely because they want to either. ;)

I wonder if NTSB does a root cause analysis of these home built crashes where there is a mechanical failure ...... I would wager money that its becasue of the exorbant cost of a factory built aircraft (I got a quote from aviat for a new S2C and they wanted 313k LOL). If you look at the cost of a Z06 carbon fiber corvett and an edge 540 the edge is around 350% more expensive, the problem is if you are born with the flying bug in your blood its in your blood. When you see summer after summer of nice beautiful weather pass and come to the realizatoin that your not a plastic surgon your only option then becomes to home build to satisfy that nawing desire to hang off the prop .... not just frump around in a J3 but pull some G's and rock and roll. The home builders know the risk and the logic goes like this .... they can either keep letting summer after summer pass and die in a rocking chair since they will never be able to afford a 350k upfront cost (even if they made good money its tough to keep the family running on cheap skate mode long enough to accumulate 350 grand for what is ultimatly a toy, its tough doing it right now for an 80k S2B and we are a 6 figure income with no kids) or they can undertake the task of building one even if they only get one flight in a 300+ hp carbon fiber before their buddies have to bury them. Thats just the way it goes, the NTSB should not be so harsh, its not like they killed passengers (hopefully!!!!), I would never take up a passenger in a home built carbon fiber, in fact I would not even build an extra seat so that I was never tempted to do that.

Also there is the issue that getting primary instruction is getting harder and MUCH more expensive to find. Lot more hoops to jump through and inflated costs from when my grandfather bought his super cub in the 50's. But the bug is the same so people have to work around the financial challenges. Even with a home built the lycombing engine is a tough enough financial challenge to overcome as thoes engines are uber price inflated.

Also pitts are no longer open cockpit, they have bubble canopys like the giles.

If the FAA and NTSB really cared they would work with aopa and congress to get special dispensation for 0 legal liability for factory built planes, the law suits and FAA fines and over strict regulations are what led to the outragious prices. My grandfather paid 2500$ for a O-290 cub in the 50's even if you adjusted that for inflation using time value of money it does not come out to 60-80 grand or in alot of cases I see cubs well above 100 grand.

Anyways I digress, none of that stuff is going to happen and edge 540's will be out of reach expensive for as long as I live so I think people just need to build a socially acceptable understanding of the home builders and understand why they do it and not judge. They are up against a wall.

Anyways maybe they will bring some of thoes EAA classes to anchorage for carbon fiber fabrication and other home build classes. I am still up against the wall for finding a house with huge garage space so it will be a while, real estate and building costs have not gone down in my area.

[steveinindy]

I wonder if NTSB does a root cause analysis of these home built crashes where there is a mechanical failure

Hell, the NTSB relies on the local yokel FAA inspector to do the scene investigation in a lot of crashes. There's a reason why a good number of the GA crashes, especially the homebuilts, have a description of the wreckage that is best measured in sentences or paragraphs rather than pages. I honestly think they overlook (not intentionally of course) the cause of the crash in a significant number of homebuilt crashes simply because the FAA employee tasked with the scene investigation may not recognize what he is looking at.


When you see summer after summer of nice beautiful weather pass and come to the realizatoin that your not a plastic surgon your only option then becomes to home build to satisfy that nawing desire to hang off the prop

Can't say I've ever had that desire. I prefer my airplanes dirty side down at all times. The closest I get to aerobatics (or want to get) is stall and spin recovery training and practice.

[Todd copeland]

Check out the lazer 200 and 300. I think they are what you have in mind. Just google it and I think you will find it. Plans built.

[Kyle Boatright]

Check out the lazer 200 and 300. I think they are what you have in mind. Just google it and I think you will find it. Plans built.

You beat me to it. A friend is very pleased with a Lazer he purchased used. I'm sure it would be a fun build too.

[martymayes]

There's a Staudacher for sale now on Trade-a-plane, $66k.

[rppearso]

You beat me to it. A friend is very pleased with a Lazer he purchased used. I'm sure it would be a fun build too.

Are the lazers typically AEIO-540 engines? I am guessing the engines are sold separatly which means I could put an AEIO-580 on there instead depending on the cost of the kit for the air frame. That could be a very fun endevor.

Keep your fingers crossed for me that the pitts S2B is still for sale, would be nice to have a functional plane to fly until I can get this project going.

Does a staudacher have at least a AEIO-540 in it, I cant see myself owning something with less than 260 hp, I have heard of a few people who got underpowered acro planes and were pretty disappointed, it does not take very long for a good pilots skill to out grow a low powered acro plane and then your in a situation where you are having to sell it, and underpowered stuff does nto fly off the shelf like things with AEIO-580s in them so you could be stuck with an albatross.

[steveinindy]

Re: Lasers and the IO-540 series engines, see the following link:

http://www.yorkaircraft.com/Z2300.html

(http://www.yorkaircraft.com/Z2300.html)I hope that is helpful.

[Sam Buchanan]

Does a staudacher have at least a AEIO-540 in it, I cant see myself owning something with less than 260 hp, I have heard of a few people who got underpowered acro planes and were pretty disappointed, it does not take very long for a good pilots skill to out grow a low powered acro plane and then your in a situation where you are having to sell it, and underpowered stuff does nto fly off the shelf like things with AEIO-580s in them so you could be stuck with an albatross.

Absolutely not true. The engine hung on the nose of the plane has nothing to do with how long it takes to "grow out" of a particular plane. Some of the most skilled aerobatic pilots ever to grace an airshow have spent their performance careers piloting low-powered aircraft such as Cubs, Citabrias, and older Decathlons. Matter of fact, the highest order of skill is required to fly a low-powered aircraft to precise aerobatic standards. Ever seen the airshow routines flown with a sailplane?

Now if all you want to do is fling an aircraft around the sky and hang off the prop, then, yes, fly as big an engine as you can afford. But if you want to really learn aerobatics, then start with a low-powered aircraft that requires pilot finesse instead of excess horsepower to get it around the box. Excess horsepower can camouflage pilot deficiences, a lower powered plane will expose them. :cool:

[rppearso]

Absolutely not true. The engine hung on the nose of the plane has nothing to do with how long it takes to "grow out" of a particular plane. Some of the most skilled aerobatic pilots ever to grace an airshow have spent their performance careers piloting low-powered aircraft such as Cubs, Citabrias, and older Decathlons. Matter of fact, the highest order of skill is required to fly a low-powered aircraft to precise aerobatic standards. Ever seen the airshow routines flown with a sailplane?

Now if all you want to do is fling an aircraft around the sky and hang off the prop, then, yes, fly as big an engine as you can afford. But if you want to really learn aerobatics, then start with a low-powered aircraft that requires pilot finesse instead of excess horsepower to get it around the box. Excess horsepower can camouflage pilot deficiences, a lower powered plane will expose them. :cool:

You are correct I made an incorrect statement. My biggest concern is around resale of an aircraft when I want to upgrade, living in an area where people dont buy aerobatic planes. I have had to sell an albatros condo and it took 8 months and I ate alot of money not going to do it again with another commodity.

Now, I did some light aerobatics in hawaii in a glider and that is ALOT of fun, unfortunatly you have to have a tow plane everytime you go up unless you have really good updraft near a ridge line as aerobatics in a glider can bleed off alot of air speed and altitude. It was fun though, if I could get a small powered glider I dont think that would be an albatros but then I would run into a hangar issue. I would have to build a massive hangar for a pitts, cub and a glider and later a suped up carbon fiber. So there are issues other than the flying skills themselves when it comes to planes, the financial and resale issues can not be ignored.

[rppearso]

Re: Lasers and the IO-540 series engines, see the following link:

http://www.yorkaircraft.com/Z2300.html

(http://www.yorkaircraft.com/Z2300.html)I hope that is helpful.

That is perfect, the air frame prices looked really reasonable as well, after overcomming the hurdle of the expense of an AEIO-580 and a 3 blade prop it wont be too shabby. Still want to start with the pitts so that I have something to fly in the mean time since I dont have the garage floor space to put one of these together yet. But this is an awesome reference.

Thank you,

[WLIU]

Having been competing in aerobatics for ten or so years, and having observed a number of folks try out aerobatics and aerobatic airplanes, I will offer the advice that if you want to learn aerobatics, start by buying or buying time in a Decathlon, then sell and move to a Pitts, 1D, or Laser.

Buying an airplane is not a lifetime commitment and worrying about resale value is pointless. You are buying a piece of equipment that you will beat the snot out of. If you are going to worry about resale value, don't put more than 2G on the airplane. Which means that you can't fly acro.

I second the comment that you will learn better skills in a Decathlon than in some high horsepower super ship. When you start out in acro, horsepower is definitely NOT your friend. Neither is speed. You just make bigger mistakes faster. And bad habits are really hard to unlearn.

One factor is your ability to get insurance. Without a number of tailwheel hours in your log book, the insurance companies won't offer you coverage for a Pitts or more expensive acro ship. Anybody can get insurance in a Decathlon. So check that before you go shopping. I will observe that the insurance agents are in business to sell policies so if they suggest that you are reaching into too risky territory, its because the accident loss history that they live with says that you may be trying to make an unwise purchase. They don't make those numbers up, we do by bending airplanes.

World champion Leo Loudenslager once said that if you have $100K to spend on acro, spend $50K on your airplane and the rest on gas and coaching. Worth thinking about.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[tonycondon]

i always thought doctors, lawyers, and engineers seemed to crash more because they typically have the disposable income to afford to go flying in the first place

[WLIU]

Well, there is a sort of conundrum in all of that. If you do not fly, you won't crash.

Normal guys do not drive earthward at 202 mph at 1500' AGL or less. Acro sounds cool to a lot folks who have not actually had their hands on the controls for a snap roll. The reality of the sights sounds feels and expense of acro means a lot of folks try it and decide that the $100 hamburger run is more comfortable. A few pilots discover that their genetic defects, combined with a fortunate career choice or two, make acro not only possible, but allow it to become an obsession. And then there are some folks who's deep pockets far outweight their stick and rudder skills and we try to help them get up to speed before an airframe gets bent. Or gently suggest that golf is an activity that will threaten their longevity less.

All of that said, no one tells you whether or not you can or will become part of the club. You decide whether to strap in and fire up. Just be careful. You might get what you wish for.

Best of luck,

Wes

[RetroAcro]

Guys, rppearso (Ron Pearson) is a troll. Don't bother responding. Google if you like. Been through this here (oshkosh365 forum) already and on the biplane forum. Same broken record story.

[rppearso]

Having been competing in aerobatics for ten or so years, and having observed a number of folks try out aerobatics and aerobatic airplanes, I will offer the advice that if you want to learn aerobatics, start by buying or buying time in a Decathlon, then sell and move to a Pitts, 1D, or Laser.

Buying an airplane is not a lifetime commitment and worrying about resale value is pointless. You are buying a piece of equipment that you will beat the snot out of. If you are going to worry about resale value, don't put more than 2G on the airplane. Which means that you can't fly acro.

I second the comment that you will learn better skills in a Decathlon than in some high horsepower super ship. When you start out in acro, horsepower is definitely NOT your friend. Neither is speed. You just make bigger mistakes faster. And bad habits are really hard to unlearn.

One factor is your ability to get insurance. Without a number of tailwheel hours in your log book, the insurance companies won't offer you coverage for a Pitts or more expensive acro ship. Anybody can get insurance in a Decathlon. So check that before you go shopping. I will observe that the insurance agents are in business to sell policies so if they suggest that you are reaching into too risky territory, its because the accident loss history that they live with says that you may be trying to make an unwise purchase. They don't make those numbers up, we do by bending airplanes.

World champion Leo Loudenslager once said that if you have $100K to spend on acro, spend $50K on your airplane and the rest on gas and coaching. Worth thinking about.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

That is a good point with insurance, I still have not heard back from the insurance guy and I have a good relationship with him as he did my check ride, I am hoping I can get at least liability and ground only coverage and at absolute worse ground only coverage which is independant of my log book. Worrying about resale value is a very real concern of mine, as I have said I have been stuck with some albotroses in other areas of life and the stress of trying to sell them has probably shaved years off my life, it is an absolute nightmare that I dont care to repeat, I want to buy something that I dont have buyers remorse on and if im stuck with and cant sell im happy to keep it the rest of my life. Also just becusae the engine has power does not mean that I have to put full power in, my instructor will be with me for the first how ever many hours I need and he will have the power settings so we can fly the S2B like a decathalon if we want to. Also landing and taking off in a pitts is an animal all its own that a decathalon is not going to prepare me for any more than flying my dads super cub.

[rppearso]

Yea, I cant die sitting at home in a rocking chair, I will be straping in and firing up as soon as practical. I am sorry that this is all taking so long and that yes I have been part of other forums. One does not save 80-100k over night but I nearly have the money (only a few months out) and there is a nice plane for sale near me, I am working with inspectors to go down and get a pre-buy done for an S2B and if it checks out I will start the escrow account for title and registration, if the insurance guy gets back thats cool if not oh well, I am at least hoping to get hangar coverage for theft, fire and roof collapse since that is not dependant upon my time as a pilot.

I greatly appreciate the link to the laser, bear in mind it will be quite a while before I can get the laser becasue I need to get a house first for the wife ..... but also so I have a massive garage to work on the project. Just because it is not happening over night does not make me a troll, I will post pics late summer/early fall if I can buy that plane before he sells it. I have been living my life building a career so that I can afford to do just this.

I dont know why people talk down about the career paths that can afford acro ..... what is everyone else doing to afford their MX2's and pitts airframes? Is a trust fund so much more noble than having an MD? I mean come on people the money has to come from somewhere.

Also I seem to not be met well on forums but when it comes to actual pilots and mechanics in real life I get along great, its really strange.

[RetroAcro]

Are you not the same "rppearso" who has been banned from a bunch of internet forum sites, including the biplane forum? Your writing style is the same.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1536&bih=1005&q=rppearso+and+banned&oq=rppearso+and+banned&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=serp.3...19081.20315.0.20581.11.8.0.0.0.0.266 .469.2-2.2.0...0.0.lppNIUaemBY

[GoldenAge]

Guys, rppearso (Ron Pearson) is a troll. Don't bother responding. Google if you like. Been through this here (oshkosh365 forum) already and on the biplane forum. Same broken record story.
Yes, rppearso is a troll. Same story, same MO. Do not respond.