"May I see your licence Mr. Examiner?"

[Janet Davidson]

Shamelessly "swiped" from another forum as I thought it may come in handy one day.... This occurred in Europe somewhere.


May I see your licence Mr. Examiner?

I've been flying for twenty years now and I thought I've seen it all. The other week I learnt that there is still a way to top it all:

I've got two students ready to take there checkride. The Aviation Authority designates a Flight Examiner, an appointment is made. The Examiner shows up in time but without any personal belongings (no logbook, no wallet). So I figured it might be a good idea to ask him a few questions about his flying experience on the Hughes 269 etc. and finally ask him to sign a statement that he had made 3 take-offs and landings on type within the last 90 days.

He refuses to sign, gets all mad and threatens to leave and to cancel the checkrides. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif
Now that really made me curious. So I tell him that by the way he behaves one has to assume that he doesn't even have a valid type rating which he neither acknowledges nor denies.
A couple of offences later he finally leaves.

So I call up the Aviation Authority to tell them the news that their Examiner wasn't able / willing to prove that he is current on type and ask for a new Examiner. About two hours later they call me back and confirm that the Examiner doesn't even hold a type rating on the Hughes269 http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gifhttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gifhttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif

Ladies and Gentlemen, make sure your Examiner is properly rated and current.

[FlyingRon]

Must be some non-US forum. There's no such thing as a Hughes 269 type rating here, nor any requirement to have made landings in type in ninety days to be current, nor for an examiner to be current or meet other PIC requirements in the aicraft being used for the exmaination (nor do we call the FAA the "Aviation Authority" typically).

[Janet Davidson]

Ron,

That is why I wrote "
This occurred in Europe somewhere."..... ;)

Regardless of the country where this occurred, the message may be relevant to some...

[Hal Bryan]

EAA is an international organization, of course, not to mention the fact that, according to a quick check of Google's analytics, people visit these forums from more than 180 countries. :)

[martymayes]

In the US a DPE is required to hold a Certificate of Authority for each make and model of helicopter before they can conduct a practical test, so I'd say the story has some relevance in this country. The examiner has to be properly 'qualified'

[FlyingRon]

You got me there, helicopter DPE authority is issued based on type, but it's no different than taking his word he's got the authority to give the type of test you're taking either.

[Cary]

I had a roughly similar experience at a ramp check in Newcastle, WY, many long years ago, probably 37 or so. I was racking up the hours for my commercial and had stopped there for fuel late on a Friday afternoon, enroute to Sundance, WY, where my folks lived. I had just paid for the fuel and was walking back to the 172, when I was stopped by a nicely dressed fellow who had just landed in his Bonanza.

"Where are you going?" he asked.
"Sundance."
"That's a pretty short strip--think you can handle it?"
"Yup, I've been in and out of there a couple dozen times."
"Can I see your license and the airplane's papers?"
"Nope, not unless you are prepared to show me yours."
"I'm from the FAA."
"I really don't care if you're from Mars. I'll show you my license and the airplane's papers if you'll show me yours."
"And if I don't?"
"Then we're wasting time--I need to be on the ground before dark in Sundance."
At that point, he laughed and said, "Have a nice flight."

I don't really know if he was from the FAA, but I have always taken the position that if any purported official wants me to identify myself and my vehicle or airplane, he/she better be prepared to properly identify him/herself first.

Cary

[malexander]

I had a roughly similar experience at a ramp check in Newcastle, WY, many long years ago, probably 37 or so. I was racking up the hours for my commercial and had stopped there for fuel late on a Friday afternoon, enroute to Sundance, WY, where my folks lived. I had just paid for the fuel and was walking back to the 172, when I was stopped by a nicely dressed fellow who had just landed in his Bonanza.
"Where are you going?" he asked.
"Sundance."
"That's a pretty short strip--think you can handle it?"
"Yup, I've been in and out of there a couple dozen times."
"Can I see your license and the airplane's papers?"
"Nope, not unless you are prepared to show me yours."
"I'm from the FAA."
"I really don't care if you're from Mars. I'll show you my license and the airplane's papers if you'll show me yours."
"And if I don't?"
"Then we're wasting time--I need to be on the ground before dark in Sundance."
At that point, he laughed and said, "Have a nice flight."

I don't really know if he was from the FAA, but I have always taken the position that if any purported official wants me to identify myself and my vehicle or airplane, he/she better be prepared to properly identify him/herself first.

Cary


I like this.:)

[Mike]

Least that guy was quick enough to ask for other persons i.d.'s.. Now we have the same prob with the TSA.

[Bill Greenwood]

This first story seems a little hard to belive. How does the writer know that the examiner doesn't have a wallet, did he frisk him?

And what was the point of being demanding of the examiner? If you go for an airplane flight test, or glider test, the examiner is not going to fly the plane exc3ept possiby a moment like unusual attitudes. He is not going to do any takeoffs and landings. Is there something different about helicopters? Or perhaps in that country?

If the two students are trained and competent to fly the test plane or copter, why do they care if the examiner is current? An examiner here in the US is supposed to watch and judge the student fly the plane for the test, not demonstrate flying it himself.
I once got a type rating, ( authority) from an FAA examiner, not just a DP. who never had ridden in that type of plane much less flown it. After our briefing and review of my training, he watched me do the 3 takeoffs and landings for the rating. He knew and flew with my instructor in different planes, and there was no problem between the two.

In this first case, it sounds like there was animosity between the instructor and the examiner, and the instructor had an axe to grind. I would go so far as to guess that they might be rivals for some flying jo, maybe a charter?

The
wholepurose of the flight test, that of getting the rating for the students was not met ( at least not then), so what good came of this? The only question that might come to mind was if the examiner had the legal basis to give the rating after the test.

Seems like the instructor put the students in the middle of a personal dispute, and at best put a short circuit in them getting their ratings.

currency from an examiner. In the 5 or 6 flght tests or so, that I have had, the instructor was not even present, just the examiner, and I .

[crusty old aviator]

Years back, when the FAA was jerking Bob Hoover around, I flew in to SBA with a friend in his homebuilt. While he was in the FBO paying the fuel bill, some Fed wondered up and tried to conduct a ramp check. I asked, "you're with the FAA, and you admit it? You must be a low-life scumbag, working for an agency that is no longer legitimate, due to their tyranical persecution of Bob Hoover, just because one of their fat employees, who had openly bragged that he hated skinny people and was going to 'bring Bob Hoover down,' claimed he was flying his airshow routine eratically, though he could produce no coraborating witnesses. Ya know, I get so angry just thinking about it, I don't know what's keeping me from punching you out right here and now? Nobody would care. You're lower in society than lawyers now. You must be as bad as that fat guy, or you would have resigned out of protest by now." He backed away from me across the ramp and said some reassuring words in an attempt to calm me down, then disappeared behind a gaggle of GA planes in the tie down area. My friend returned from the FBO and away we flew. He would have passed a ramp check okay, but I wanted to let this guy know that we were not pleased with the FAA's shenanigans. I encountered another Fed about to perform ramp checks at the Camarillo Flyin in '97. I told him that was a really dumb idea and went against a memo that was sent out by the FAA Administrator, due to the bad PR it creates. When he said he had a job to do, I told him he should do it on Monday, because if he tried to do it on Saturday, he might not live to see Monday. The Sherrif's deputy that was standing beside him agreed with me, and he walked back to his car. Never be afraid to question authority, or you will end up being afraid of authority. That's what happened in Germany in the 30's. I wonder whatever happened to that fat guy. The FAA should have gone after him and all those bureaucrats in the FAA who backed him up, but they protect their own.

[Frank Giger]

I think you deserved a fat lip for talking to anyone that way. In a just society you'd of been knocked on your ass for being a jerk of the highest level.

Everyone in your line of work is a saint, right? If someone else screws up in your profession it justifies you being castigated and insulted, right?

Where checking authority of examiners is important is Sport Pilots. We had a fellow relay how they pulled his SP ticket because he was signed off by a guy who was authorized for PPL's, but not SP and the pilot then had to get another check ride with a qualified examiner.

[rosiejerryrosie]

One of the dangerous attitudes which lead to accidents is "Disregard for Authority".
Wonder if this qualifies.....

[martymayes]

....

Hey crusty, you ROCK! I'll buy you lunch if out paths ever cross......we could have fun swapping stories!

[Cary]

I'm not against authority--I just want to make sure it is really authority. That means that a DE has to have the authority to conduct the flight test, and I see nothing wrong at all with asking him/her to prove that authority. Would you want to go through a complete flight test, only to have it nullified because the DE wasn't authorized? And I'll be danged if anyone not authorized to do so will examine my or my airplane's credentials, just because he/she asks to do it.

Cary

[Bill Greenwood]

Cary, in the U S at least, as for as I know how the process goes, when the instructor has the student ready for the flight test in order to get a license or rating, they phone the FAA and make an appointment for the flight test. It is notl like in the days after a wind storm or hail storm when there is a knock at your door, an unmarked pickup truck in the driveway, and someone who is a total stranger claims to be a "contractor" and offers cut rate repairs right then.

The examiner doesn't just show up out of nowhere, and hope to convince someone to let him do a flght test. And if it is a normal flght school, most likely they have had other students take a test and may be familar with the examiner in that area.

You, of course have the option of telling your student to ask the examiner to see his credentials. But are you really doing anyone, least of all your student, a favor by taking that approach with the examiner?
The examiner then, of course, will have the option of checking every detail that makes the test airplane legal to fly. Do you think if he examines it and the log books long enough, he might find some flaw, perhaps the software in the gps out of date, or an old 337 not quite riight?

And if the plane passes muster, the examiner is free to ask virtually any question involved in the rating. Do you think if he persists for 4 or 5 hours he might find some areas that the student is not perfect on, some FAR that he doesn't know verbatim, or some detail left out of a cross country or ifr flight plan, or weight and balance?

And then after the 4 or 5 hour oral part, do you think the student will fly his best? Let's say about a 3 or 4 hour flight test, do you think the instructor can find some manuever that the student is not perfect on? Perhaps he does not ALWAYS hold heading within 5 degrees briefly or aliltude within 100 feet or airspeed within 5 knots especially if it is now the middle of a hot windy afternoon when they do the test?

Do you really think it is a good idea to give the examiner a motivation to fail your student? Of course the examiner may be a bigger person and be perfectly fair to your student, even after you or the student have in essence questioned the examiiners honesty.But examiners are human too, ( at least in theory) and politeness or the lack of it works both ways.

And have you personally ever seen an examiner from the FAA show up for an appointment that was not qualified to sign off the student? Or one who did the fight test and then was found not legal after the sign off?
I have only been flying 30 years, but I have never actually SEEN such a thing, as apart from tales at Happy Hour.

The idea of a ramp check is a separate matter. But if you refuse to show the planes documents, can the FAA man then ground the plane on the spot?

[CarlOrton]

*snip*
The examiner then, of course, will have the option of checking every detail that makes the test airplane legal to fly. Do you think if he examines it and the log books long enough, he might find some flaw, perhaps the software in the gps out of date, or an old 337 not quite riight?
Bill:

I remember back in the late 70's, the NYC police dept was having labor contract problems with the city. Since they couldn't go out on strike, they declared that nothing illegal would be done, but EVERYTHING would be done BY THE BOOK. They (and everyone else) KNEW that the city would grind to a halt very quickly...

That made a lasting impression on my young mind, and I'll always think about that when faced with similar circumstances.

[rosiejerryrosie]

Marty, remind me to never fly with you or crusty....

[Cary]

I think the more common practice is not to call the FAA, but to call a known DE directly. Perhaps a call to the FAA first to see who is on the current DE roster might be the best thing. But certainly in some way or another, I'd want to know that the DE was authorized to give the ride. I doubt in most instances that it's a problem.

Cary

[Bill Greenwood]

Cary, on another subject, how is the smoke in Ft. Collins? I flew over Corona Pass last eve and you can really see the plume, also the one west of Pikes Peak. We need rain!!!!

It seems to me you are picking a pretty small item, with the difference between the FAA employee and a Designated Examiner. How does one get on the D E list? The FAA had to approve the D E and put them on the list. Is it likely at all that someone unqualified is going to get on the list, and go out to the flight school or student and claim he can do the flight test when he legally can't. Maybe that happened once, but I think that is highly unlikely. It may have happened once, especially if there is some complex or unusual airplane involved, but I sure don't think that is a reason to in effect, acting like the D E is dishonest. If you have any doubt about the DE, if he is new to that position or area, then maybe a phone call to the FAA to verify the qualification is the way to do it.
And in the event that the DE gave a flight test and charged a fee for it, and then it came to find out that the DE was not qualified , the student could certainly ask for his fee back. If the DE did not refund it , there would certainly be grounds for a suit that what the D E did was faudulent.

I still think, in the first story that started this topic, if it is indeed true, that there was likely a personal or economic conflict between the CFI and examiner.

[WLIU]

For folks who are unfamiliar with accessing FAA info, you can find your FAA Designated Pilot Examiner(s) by going to http://av-info.faa.gov/designeesearch.asp If an individual can be identified through the FAA web site, you don't have to worry about their credentials on the day you meet them.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

[rosiejerryrosie]

It boggles my mind how anyone would want to risk antagonizing the very person who will decide whether or not they will be able to fly.....unbelieveable.....

[Eric Page]

Since they couldn't go out on strike, they declared that nothing illegal would be done, but EVERYTHING would be done BY THE BOOK.

This is a pretty common tactic at airlines. Pilot unions call for a fly-the-book campaign when they desire to make an impact on management during contract negotiations. The legality of it vis-a-vis the Railway Labor Act (federal law governing airline labor relations) is hotly debated.

[Dan]

I had a roughly similar experience at a ramp check in Newcastle, WY, many long years ago, probably 37 or so. I was racking up the hours for my commercial and had stopped there for fuel late on a Friday afternoon, enroute to Sundance, WY, where my folks lived. I had just paid for the fuel and was walking back to the 172, when I was stopped by a nicely dressed fellow who had just landed in his Bonanza.
"Where are you going?" he asked.
"Sundance."
"That's a pretty short strip--think you can handle it?"
"Yup, I've been in and out of there a couple dozen times."
"Can I see your license and the airplane's papers?"
"Nope, not unless you are prepared to show me yours."
"I'm from the FAA."
"I really don't care if you're from Mars. I'll show you my license and the airplane's papers if you'll show me yours."
"And if I don't?"
"Then we're wasting time--I need to be on the ground before dark in Sundance."
At that point, he laughed and said, "Have a nice flight."

I don't really know if he was from the FAA, but I have always taken the position that if any purported official wants me to identify myself and my vehicle or airplane, he/she better be prepared to properly identify him/herself first.

Cary


Good Job! Still applies today...

[Jim Hann]

I had a roughly similar experience at a ramp check in Newcastle, WY, many long years ago, probably 37 or so. I was racking up the hours for my commercial and had stopped there for fuel late on a Friday afternoon, enroute to Sundance, WY, where my folks lived. I had just paid for the fuel and was walking back to the 172, when I was stopped by a nicely dressed fellow who had just landed in his Bonanza.
"Where are you going?" he asked.
"Sundance."
"That's a pretty short strip--think you can handle it?"
"Yup, I've been in and out of there a couple dozen times."
"Can I see your license and the airplane's papers?"
"Nope, not unless you are prepared to show me yours."
"I'm from the FAA."
"I really don't care if you're from Mars. I'll show you my license and the airplane's papers if you'll show me yours."
"And if I don't?"
"Then we're wasting time--I need to be on the ground before dark in Sundance."
At that point, he laughed and said, "Have a nice flight."

I don't really know if he was from the FAA, but I have always taken the position that if any purported official wants me to identify myself and my vehicle or airplane, he/she better be prepared to properly identify him/herself first.

Cary

My experience with ramp checks both in and out of air carrier ops is that IF the ASI is officially conducting ramp checks they will lead off the contact with their identification. If he is just out to bust, um, the family jewels he can go pound sand. Not that I would say it that way because he is still a human being.

Jim