Parachute question (technicality)

[Wsquare]

Question. If one is flying an airplane, and is doing aerobatics, then one needs to wear a "current" parachute. However, if one is flying an airplane, and is not conducting any flight that would require a parachute, can a person wear a parachute that is NOT current? Thanks.

[FlyingRon]

If you're solo you don't need a parachute by the way. Parachutes are only needed when flying passengers.

91.307 says: (a) No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type and has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger—

So if you have an emergency parachute available, it has to be current. It matters not whether you're required to have the parachute. Your out of date parachute needs to be removed from the aircraft (or some other way to make it unavailable for use ... placarded and deactivated?).

[WLIU]

Technically, you have to throw your out of date parachute in the baggage compartment. You can not sit on it legally.

The other reg that was not quoted above says that if you fly solo, no parachute need be worn, but if you carry a passenger, the pilot and all of the passengers must wear parachutes.

Interesting, the British tradition, where the rules are different, is to not wear parachutes. Hardly sporting to give yourself an easy out if you break the airplane.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS
Senior Parachute Rigger

[Racegunz]

The rule is ridiculous, an out of date chute is better than none if your wing fails in flight, pfft! It's always about the money and control. pathetic absolutely pathetic! Reminds me of when a senior electrical engineer at my work place intercepted electrically insulated gloves that I had production order me (maint/engineering wouldn't) because I wasn't trained how to use and check them, I threw him my safety glasses and said better keep these too I've never recieved training on them either. Same kind of people.
I say wear the chute if you want and first chnace you get go to a skydiving club and ask a rigger to check and re-pack it for you, but I wouldn't let the "REGS" keep me from wearing it.

[Ozzie]

As a skydiver I used to question the short time between repacks of reserves. It used to be three months here in OZ but has now been extended to 6 months. On my old rig that had a round reserve i would often let it run to 12 months and do what we called a pencil pack. just had the packing card signed of by a mate in exchange for a beer. gasp horror i hear. A lot of us did it and it was based on experience and knowledge. i also took precautions in how i treated my rig. I never left it in the sun or exposed it to heat like leaving it in the boot of the car. i also used good quality elastic bands that are used to stow the lines so they did not perish and stick to the lines. I also never left it on the ground so ants etc could find there way in. When it was repacked it received a good long airing and a closer inspection and the rubber stows replaced. I had a couple of reserve deployments at each end of the yearly repack both opening times where about the same in time and hardness. The federation here did some tests on jumping rigs that had been packed for up to 2 years. It was found that after around 12 months there were problems in deployment times especially with the newer square reserves. If you are using a emergency rig that you sit on, leave in the aircraft that sits in the sun or just toss it in the cupboard etc i recommend that it be repacked on the due date. Times for me have now changed, i now use a square reserve that is fitted very tightly into the container and is also fitted with an electronic AAD ( auto opener) and i now have it repacked on or shortly after the due date. There is more to check and they some of the components like the closing loops are not as rugged as they used to be and need to be replaced on each repack. You should treat it as an insurance policy. When you need it you really need it and last thing you need is a big pilot chute hesitation or the canopy to snivvel if you are really low. i aslo recommend doing a jump ( not a tandem) and maybe doing a packers course if you don't want to pay someone. You could then pack all your friends and get some money back. I'm getting lazy these days and pay some one else 8 bucks to pack my main.
ozzie

[steveinindy]

Hardly sporting to give yourself an easy out if you break the airplane.

LOL You're kidding right?


The rule is ridiculous, an out of date chute is better than none if your wing fails in flight, pfft!

Assuming that it opens or opens correctly. As our Aussie friend points out, there are some serious technical issues with a chute left to sit for years.

Speaking from experience as a skydiver, I've had a chute fail to open and when it was investigated, the rigger was found to have not repacked it when he said they did based on a discrepancy between the label my friend (the owner of the chute) had installed on the chute for his own quick verification and the paperwork the rigger filled out. Luckily, the reserve had been repacked by someone else who actually did it or there's a decent chance I might not be alive today. To this day, that remains the only time I've had to rely on a reserve to get down safely. Also to this day, the guy who did his job and repacked that reserve doesn't pay for his own meals whenever I am around.


I'm getting lazy these days and pay some one else 8 bucks to pack my main.
LOL Exactly, a repack if you have skydiving friends isn't that much.

[WLIU]

Not kidding. The apocryphal story from the other side of the pond is the famous story of how British test pilot Neil Williams came up with a brilliant recovery after breaking the wing of his Zlin. In upright flight the wing wanted to fold upwards and he quickly discovered that in iverted flight the wing stayed in its normal position and the airplane flew normally. He flew down final inverted and rolled upright so low that the wingtip scraped the sod runway. The wing folded just as he reached upright flight, he pancaked onto the runway, and walked away. I am not creative enough to make this up.

Having a pilot emergency parachute sitting in its pack for months or years has little affect on proper function. If you had a problem I suspect that there was more going on than just the time since repack. I am regularly surprised by rigs that come into my shop and when I open them it is obvious that the last rigger did not have, or follow, the correct instructions. I have seen a total malfunction on my packing table. Your friend the skydiver may not be the best choice to repack your round pilot emergency parachute for $8. I can tell every pilot that I have 100 jumps on a round parachute and several reserve rides on a parachute just like the one that they sit on. Age has its advantages some days.

I once watched a bad friend have a total malfunction of his main parachute and deploy a reserve that had been packed for 18months. He had taken good care of the rig in the meantime and my unscientific observation was that the deployment time was the same, or less, then what a freshly repacked rig would do.

The military vacuum packs their ejection seat parachutes and I believe that they can be installed for a couple of years or so before their next inspection. Not the same as what civilians do, but an example that time in the pack is a less important parameter.

Oh, a quality repack costs something like $50 - $70 these days. What is your life worth anyway?

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS
1680 parachute jumps
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger

[rosiejerryrosie]

I am constantly amazed at how some folks apparently want to save money on safety equipment..:eek:

[steveinindy]

Not kidding.

I knew it was a historical attitude (the same attitude that led them to believe that parachutes degraded pilot skill and that it was better to issue pilots a pistol with which to shoot themselves). I just wasn't certain if you were we trying to argue against against a parachute or not. Given how rational you have always come across, it just led me to inquire further. Thank you for clarifying what you were getting at.


Your friend the skydiver may not be the best choice to repack your round pilot emergency parachute for $8

I was actually referring to the fact that anyone who knows skydivers in any number probably has at least one or two riggers in their circle as well.


Oh, a quality repack costs something like $50 - $70 these days. What is your life worth anyway?

Exactly.

[WLIU]

I have a friend who made a career out of auto racing and working on British engines and cars. His advice is "There is no British Engineering. It is all tradition.".

I have no idea as to whether British and Commonwealth pilots are more inclined to wear a parachute when they fly aerobatics these days. A quick look at the British Aerobatic Association web site and its link to their equivalent of an advisory circular suggests that their regs do not require that parachutes be worn at all.

IAC requires parachutes and since they can help make a spartan seat more comfortable while doing snap rolls, you just get used to them.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

[Racegunz]

I have 57 military jumps and I understand the matter pretty well, if you are taking your airplane and your skills to the limit, then wear the damn chute no matter what the regs say. It would of course be prudent to get it checked and re-packed and perhaps you should observe the rigger to make sure you are getting your money's worth. The old cliche "what's your life worth" is meaningless when we sell ourselves for peanuts to businesses /employers/Gov't everyday, so let me put it this way, as soon as you get time do it right. Rant over.

[WLIU]

If you have military jumps, thank you for your service.

That said, if you are familiar with civilian pilot emergency parachutes and their use, you will agree that they have almost nothing in common with military gear or training.

Comparing logbooks is always interesting. I moved from skydiving into more flying, but some of my friends have log books that now record jump totals in the 5000 to 7000 range. And my military friends came home from the middle east talking about going out of the airplane at 40,000' in the dark over a hostile country with their SF team. Everyone's experience is different and some of it overlaps and some does not.

If you fly with a pilot emergency parachute, the best advice is to get it inspected by someone who is knowlegable about the particular rig, take care of the rig between repacks, and walk through a bail out every so often. If you can make the time, stop by a drop zone and make a tandem jump. Being in an airplane on fire is not the best time to start learning about skydiving.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

[steveinindy]

Being in an airplane on fire is not the best time to start learning about skydiving.

....or at night with an engine out. Aim the plane towards somewhere dark and hope you paid attention during your jump training.

I have quite a few jumps to my credit and four of them have been at night out of Cessnas simply for the experience in case I ever need to do it "for real" since the two primary reasons for my bailing out would be fire (or exceptionally dense smoke preventing a safe landing) or a loss of power at night outside of the traffic pattern.

[Bill Greenwood]

For years my friend Art Vance flew his Mustang without a parachute. He was a EAA member, Reno racer, and Reno check pilot, 25 year or more warbird guy. But despite lot's of suggestions, Art wanted to do it his way. He once told me, "I paid too much for my airplane, I'm never going to jump out of it."

So one day Art is out at the airport, not even expecting to go flying and he is asked to ferry a Corsair up to northern California. The Corsair has been sitting in a hangar for a long time while it is being worked on. There is an old military chute in the seat, not even close to current, but Art puts it on.
Along the route the engine begins to run rough, they are over wooded areas, nowhere good to land. Finally they find a strip the forrest service uses. As Art descends to land, the engine gets worse, and then it explodes into fire. Art bails out at about pattern altitude, so low that Dan Vance in another plane doesn't even see Art get out.
The old chute opens, and as Art says with his wry and dry sense of humor: he suddenly becomes quite a fan of parachutes. One minute in the cockpit it is noisy and hot, then the next moment you are out and it is cool and quiet.
The peaceful moment is broken as Art starts to hit the tree tops. As he put it, ""The human body is not really designed to crash through tree tops." By the time Art gets to the ground, he is much the worse for wear; suffered some burns, and generally banged up.
BUT HE IS ALIVE, BECAUSE HE HAD A PARACHUTE AND HE USED IT.

If you have a plane that you might need to get out of, like an acro or a warbird; and that plane is one where you can open the canopy or jettison it or the door so that you can exit easily, then carry an emergency parachute. Now it is within the FAA regs that is be repacked every 6 months, and that is the smart thing to do and to have an expert repack the chute. It will be $50 or $75 well spent, especially if you have an older chute that has not had regular inspections.
But unless you can tread air, a chute that is somewhat out of date on repack, is going to be a lot more valueable than flying with no chute at all. Sometimes the law of gravity trumps the law of FAR. And practice, either real jumps may be important, but above all you have to carry the chute. I have not done an actual practice jump, but did go in one of the wind tunnel free float type rides. Military pilots in WW II did not do actual practice jumps and as for as I know they still don't.
I have only a few times had FAA asked me if my chute was current, both at airshows, and they were.
EAA does a good thing, at Osh and Lakeland both, there is a lady, Deborah who will repack your chute right there, overnight, and she is very experienced. A smart way to stay current, and she does hundreds each year.

[Racegunz]

You much more eloquently than I made my point clear, thanks for that. Cool story too!

[martymayes]

Bill, I think just having a parachute isn't enough. You have to be mentally and physically ready when and if the time comes. I think this is what happened (or didn't happen) in the Joe Frasca accident. He was wearing the parachute but in the heat of the moment he exited the airplane forgetting the harness was not completely fastened.

[Bill Greenwood]

Marty, I knew Joe a little bit, though not well. His Dad Rudy is a good and long time friend. It was very sad to see how painful it was for Rudy and his family when Joe was lost. I saw Joe put on a good show in their Wildcat one year at EAA, and he had just made the U S team when lost.
It seems hard to believe, but apparently it was Joe's normal practice to undo the chest straps when he was not competing and just going cross country.

This original topic was about the FAR as per currency, and whether one can or should carry a chute even if out of date; and that is what my post is about. Yes, the ideal way is to be all current on practice, have it packed by a top rigger, and so on, but none of that will do you any good if you left the chute at home due to some fear of violating a FAR by being out of date, unless you can tread air. Almost all military jumps in combat or emergency situations were spur of the moment, not after actual jump practice. Just like Art's bailout and the recent one from the P-51 at Duxford?.

[steveinindy]

Bill, I think just having a parachute isn't enough. You have to be mentally and physically ready when and if the time comes.

I couldn't agree more. I know the first jump I made I literally had to be shoved out of the aircraft. After I was out, I was fine but as the saying goes, "Watch that first step. It's a doozie!"

[martymayes]

This original topic was about the FAR as per currency, and whether one can or should carry a chute even if out of date; and that is what my post is about.

I researched that reg a long time ago and in reviewing interpretations, opinions and enforcement activity, nothing prohibits one from "carrying" an out of date parachute. After all, one may need to get to a place where it can be repacked. If the intent of the flight is one where parachutes must be available for emergency use, then having an out of date parachutes is an issue. I'd be interested in hearing if anything has changed since then.

[steveinindy]

It seems hard to believe, but apparently it was Joe's normal practice to undo the chest straps when he was not competing and just going cross country.

It's not hard to believe. Look at the number of us who unbuckle our restraints during cross country flights in good weather. Same approach, at least in my book.

[Bill Greenwood]

Steve, maybe I am not the norm, but I sure don't take off my seat belt, EVER, while I am flying. And that includes when I am in a plane capable of acro , or just my Bonanza or an airliner unless I am going to the restroom. And I wear it all the time I am driving, not just on freeways or weekdays or any other bad reason.
Sure, I may have not have it as tight as it will go all the time, and part of my landing checklist is to snug it up, but I don't unbuckle it. What purpose does that serve? I can't imagine wanting to fly along with a chute half on and half off.That would be like having fire insurance on your house that was only good for every other day.

In Joe's case, he got out, even at low altitude, he did pull the ripcord, and the chute did open, but pulled off of him. I am not certain if it was the leg straps or the chest strap left undone, but that it what I was told. I don't think it is known what went wrong with his engine leading to the bailout. I can't write all I'd like to on a public site on this, but maybe we will meet at Osh or somewhere. The end result was as tragic as if he'd not had a chute at all, and probably could have been avoided.

I have done a lot of T-34 flying. It is sort of on the edge of the spectrum of really needing a chute. It is as reliable as a simple Bonanza and if I had to do a forced emergency landing, it would be my first choice of plane. You may do acro, but aren't really likely to do the all out hammerhead or Pitts type inverted spins, so one may be less likely to need to bail out of a 34. But I could never understand the few owners who don't wear chutes in their 34s. You've go to sit on something, why not sit on something that can save your life? You can have a big cushion for your butt in case you don't eat as many donuts as I do, and have that cushion be part of the chute. Having to bail out as a civilian is rare, but I know a few people that have been saved that way, like Sean Tucker.

For those who fly all out acro ,where a broken plane or unrecoverable spin is not unknown, a chute really is a must. For other experimental and warbird types it is a good idea. I actually feel a little uneasy sometimes because I don't wear one in the Bonanza, where there is no good way to get out the door.

My idea on safety is that it is up to me to cut down the danger by not doing dumb stuff, like low level vertical acro, or too much scud running or imc sneaking through or takiing off with a dead mag, or going with my chute half buckled,
For the rest of the danger spectrum ,that is up to luck or God or whatever, and that part is something we can't control all the time.

[steveinindy]

Steve, maybe I am not the norm, but I sure don't take off my seat belt, EVER, while I am flying. And that includes when I am in a plane capable of acro , or just my Bonanza or an airliner unless I am going to the restroom. And I wear it all the time I am driving, not just on freeways or weekdays or any other bad reason.
Sure, I may have not have it as tight as it will go all the time, and part of my landing checklist is to snug it up, but I don't unbuckle it. What purpose does that serve? I can't imagine wanting to fly along with a chute half on and half off.That would be like having fire insurance on your house that was only good for every other day.

Yes, but you're thinking proactively. I never take my restraints off while flying either. If everyone thought that way, I'd be out of a job. It's that big "I'm too good/lucky/smart/etc....it won't happen to me" attitude among pilots creeping up again. We see it all the time on forums like this one.


My idea on safety is that it is up to me to cut down the danger by not doing dumb stuff, like low level vertical acro, or too much scud running or imc sneaking through or takiing off with a dead mag, or going with my chute half buckled,
For the rest of the danger spectrum ,that is up to luck or God or whatever, and that part is something we can't control all the time.

Thank you for that. I've had too many friends whose last contribution to aviation was to be reduced to a series of numbers on a spreadsheet to track safety and injury information. I hope to never have to do it for someone I know ever again and that's why I do the work I do (to try to prevent that). We may not always see eye to eye Bill, but I do consider you a 'friend' in a way simply because you're a fellow pilot. Same goes for the rest of the motley crew on here.

[Joe LaMantia]

This topic has "deployed" my memory cells! I spent most of my 6 years in the Air Force Reserve as a Loadmaster in a Tactical Airlift unit. I packed and rigged thousands of cargo chutes for loads ranging from 500 Lbs. to small vehicles. As the GIB ("Guy in the Back"), I was required to wear a parachute which was packed by our Squadron rigger and kept on a rack with other personal equipment just down the hall from the locker room. These chutes were very well maintained and always "current". When I first started flying Air Drops I was a bit anxious walking around the open (missing) cargo door, C119G's have to leave the cargo doors on the ground. Wearing the chute was a real confidence builder when walking around the cargo compartment while the airplane bounced around the sky in formations of 9 to 13 aircraft. In addition to flying missions I did serve on recovery teams working the drop zone as well. We would just "field pack" the recovered cargo chutes then load the trucks and return to base. All these chutes were repacked the next day, each was inspected for water, bugs, and any other debris. Since we ran air drops all year long we would get some wet chutes from time to time and the big G11A's would take a few days to dry out.

Packing Military cargo chutes is really pretty easy and you could learn the "process" in a couple of hours by just working with another GIB. These are all deployed with a "static line" as were all the chutes used by your basic airborne troopers. We did lots of support missions at the Army's jump school at Fort Benning, Ga. I've never jumped out of an airplane, but I would agree with others on this thread that having an out of date chute along would be far better then none if your having a really bad day. This equipment is very reliable, but not a 100% guarantee, only remember one airdrop injury involving a paratrooper who got a partial deployment on his main chute and pulled his reserve, then landed and broke his back. One failure in 4 years of flying and dropping thousands of troopers, is a pretty good testament for the equipment.

Joe
:cool:

[steveinindy]

We did lots of support missions at the Army's jump school at Fort Benning, Ga
"What's Airborne training like?
Step 1: Separate the men from the boys.
Step 2: Separate the fools from the men.
Step 3: The fools jump out of perfectly good airplanes."

A joke told to me by a WWII era 101st Airborne medic that I know.

[WLIU]

Well, since you brought it up....

One of my mentors as a young skydiver was a gentleman named Carl Beck. On the night of June 6, 1944, Carl and a bunch of other crazy 17 year olds, stepped out into the night sky over a French town named Ste. Mere Eglise. Three of my fellow young skydivers were grandsons of then Col, "Jumping" Jim Gavin, commander of the 82nd, who pulled his troops together and made it happen that night.

Carl told me that in 1969 the phone rang. The guys who were there that night have a very exclusive club, and the voice on the other end of the telephone ask whether Carl wanted to jump into France on the 25 anniversary of the beginning of the liberation of France. Carl reported that the French military provided parachutes and airplanes and a bunch of them landed in St. Mere Eglise to a much warmer reception than they got that night in 1944. And the towns residents have long memories. To this day, if you were an airborne trooper that night in 1944, you can do no wrong in St. Mere Eglise.

Carl turned into a sport jumper after that and made another 1000 sport jumps in addition to his two combat jumps and the military jump training that preceded them. He also jumped into St. Mere Eglise on the 30th and 40th anniversaries I believe.

Not bad for a fool kid.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

[steveinindy]

Those guys were heroes in every since of the word. I hate to split it out, but I hold the guys who did it unarmed (the medics) in slightly higher regard.

[Joe LaMantia]

In answer to the question "What's Airborne training like?", I'd say it's all about motivation! The trainees run everywhere they go, from morning till night. They practice jumps off low "zip" lines and higher towers, when the training is over they make 5 jumps in 4 days from planes...these are low level, 1500MSL. The last jump is with full equipment so they're heavy and have a weapon strapped to their leg, difficult to walk around. The "Jump Master" gets them all pumped up to a point that even I wanted to go out the door with them! I used to start off the pre take-off briefing with a shout..."Sargent who are these people?!! Always got the same answer..."AIRBORNE!" followed by "HOW FAR?!", response..."ALL THE WAY"! They give 100% and many gave all they had in Viet Nam, those that completed their tour in SE Asia were assigned to the 82nd which was part of Strike Command the forerunner of the rapid deployment force based at Fort Bragg, N.C.

Joe
:cool: