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View Full Version : Registration Red Tape, Ain't This Fun!



Bill Greenwood
05-17-2012, 08:55 PM
You would think that the employees at the FAA could find some real work to do, perhaps is closely supervising airline maintenance now that so much of it is outsourced to 2nd world and even 3rd world countries in Latin America, and most major airlines have gone through bankruptcy or are on the brink of it.

And we know how busy they have been with vital safety work like making sure the Alec Baldwin doesn't use a cell phone on the airplane.

And let's give them credit where due, last year there was not even one fatality on a major U S airline, so someone at the FAA and the airline must be doing something right.

But, there must have been at least one employee with time on their hands and/or perhaps a grudge against private general aviation.

The have come up with a scheme that we have to re-register all our planes. Now normally when the govt, any govt, does something new it is really all about money and whatever the disguise it is a way to get more money out of the public.
But this does not seem to be the case here, they are only asking for $5 per plane.
But it still a hassle and for no reason that I can discern.

And they sent me a notice about it, well in advance. But did they do the logical thing and make the notice that they mailed out be the paper to re-register, so that an owner can just fill in a few lines and sign his name and mail it back with the $5? Heck no, that would be much too logical, and maybe not have enough paperwork to keep the employees going.

No, we have to go online, to print out the silly form, the one they could have easily mailed me when they sent the notice. Now that may be really easy for someone who lives on a computer. But for me, I am not that good with a computer, so I have got to go find one with a printer that works, maybe the local office supply store and get them to print out this magic form, so I can send it in with my $5.

So what the effect of this is that being able to use a computer or at least having someone to do it for you is now a defacto requirement to own a registered airplane.

And most of all, I am 99 % sure that this is a total waste of time, that once all these forms are sent in, they will go into some file and never even be looked at again.
And not one pilot will be any safer, or have any benefit at all from having any more red tape on file with the FAA.

I have 2 main fuel tanks in my plane, and each has 2 indicators. One indicator is sometimes erratic. I could take the time to try to fix this now, once before it was a dirty ground wire. Or I could spend the time on this form nonsense. I guess I am a little old fashioned in my thinking that a fuel gauge might be more important that more red tape.

FlyingRon
05-18-2012, 02:33 AM
Don't get me started. The Aircraft Registry has always been a pain in the butt to deal with even BEFORE the new system. Note that they don't provide a way to even do it PROPERLY online. So even if you did have a computer and internet, you can't just go there and submit the blasted reregistration (except for certain time windows with a MAGIC cookie that itself is mailed to you and not available online). I've been working for 12 years to get my wife's name changed to her married name (we bought the plane before we got married). It's a royal pain. I've even sent them a certified true copy of our marriage certificate. Bah!

This is in stark contrast to the Airmen Registry which will take updates either online, on the phone, or in person. To get her name fixed on her pilot's certificate, we just walked up to the FAA registry guys at their table at Oshkosh (one of our honeymoon stops) and showed them the forms and they changed it on the spot. Of course the Aircraft people at the next table couldn't do that.

Kyle Boatright
05-18-2012, 04:43 AM
Another kicker on this system is that when you get the notice, you have a lengthy period (6 months?) to re-register. But if you pay the $5 bucks immediately, it appears that the 3 year re-registration clock starts again immediately, so you "lose" the grace period remaining on your current registration. Where this ends up is that many of us will be re-registering every 2.5 years, instead of every 3 years. You do have the choice to sit on the re-registration notice for 6 months and hope you don't forget, but forgetting to re-register will inevitably be more painful that registering every 2.5 years...

martymayes
05-18-2012, 05:27 AM
If I was the gov., the last thing I would want is an accurate account of registered aircraft. Once updated and all the phantom airplanes are gone, the registry will reveal the FAA has >3 employees on the payroll for each airplane, underscoring waste, inefficency and redundancy. Then someone is going to realize the mandatory re-registration is an untapped cash cow. Enjoy the $5 registration while it last. Once the fee hikes start, there will be no limit.

Mike M
05-18-2012, 05:45 AM
...way to get more money out of the public.
But this does not seem to be the case here, they are only asking for $5 per plane...
I am 99 % sure that this is a total waste of time, that once all these forms are sent in, they will go into some file and never even be looked at again. And not one pilot will be any safer, or have any benefit at all from having any more red tape on file with the FAA.

it's only five bucks this time. but the enacting legislation allows for price increases without coming back to congress. any bets it will stay five bucks for long?

i think (think, meaning no basis in fact need be quoted to back up my dismal prognosis) that the purpose behind all this is to cull the aircraft registry. many folks won't pay even five bucks to keep a dataplate alive. when the dust clears next year and all the registrations are done, i think there will be a big drop in total "general aviation aircraft" and thus reason to discount our interests, freedoms, and concerns relative to other "stakeholders" in various aviation-related issues. such as:

http://www.9news.com/rss/story.aspx?storyid=268207
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/05/17/fighter-jets-in-skies-over-chicago-on-friday-morning-before-nato-summit/

rosiejerryrosie
05-18-2012, 08:46 AM
All you folks who are complaining -- How often do you have to re-regester your automobile? And how much does THAT cost?

Mike M
05-18-2012, 11:24 AM
All you folks who are complaining -- How often do you have to re-regester your automobile? And how much does THAT cost?

gosh gee golly, i didn't realize i even had to register my automobile with the federal government! much less RE-register it! thanks for letting me know.

seriously, since 1903 there has been no requirement to re-register an airplane with the federal government. i find it incredulous that suddenly, with the nation gazillions of pennies in debt, it is suddenly imperative to re-register aircraft every few years for the paltry sum of ANYTHING - other than the opportunity to get the camel's nose into the tent so when the price goes up, people are willing to say, "All you folks who are complaining -- How often do you have to re-register your automobile? And how much does THAT cost?" when we all know that registering automobiles is nothing but a cash cow. after all, when andrew cunanan stole william reese's truck in may 1997, it wasn't found until after cunanan killed gianni versace two months later. if they couldn't find the truck of a murder victim, driven by a nationally-pursued serial killer, until AFTER cunanan committed suicide - why bother to register motor vehicles at all? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FlyingRon
05-18-2012, 11:33 AM
Virginia gives you the choice to register your car for 1, 2, or 3 years. You get a tiny discount for doing more than a year at a time, but it's mostly for convenience. It is more expensive (IIRC about $50/year). However it is a lot more convenient. They mail out a renewal notice, but that's just a courtesy. With your existing registration in hand, it takes you about 3 minutes to type in two numbers (your title number and the last four digits of your VIN) and your credit card info and you can print out a temporary registration right there and then (great for people who wait until the last minute).

martymayes
05-18-2012, 01:20 PM
gosh gee golly, i didn't realize i even had to register my automobile with the federal government! much less RE-register it! thanks for letting me know.

seriously, since 1903 there has been no requirement to re-register an airplane with the federal government. i find it incredulous that suddenly, with the nation gazillions of pennies in debt, it is suddenly imperative to re-register aircraft every few years for the paltry sum of ANYTHING - other than the opportunity to get the camel's nose into the tent so when the price goes up, people are willing to say, "All you folks who are complaining -- How often do you have to re-register your automobile? And how much does THAT cost?" when we all know that registering automobiles is nothing but a cash cow. after all, when andrew cunanan stole william reese's truck in may 1997, it wasn't found until after cunanan killed gianni versace two months later. if they couldn't find the truck of a murder victim, driven by a nationally-pursued serial killer, until AFTER cunanan committed suicide - why bother to register motor vehicles at all? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

LOL......good response. If the fed gov implemented the same oversight for autos they would have to hire 3-4 employees for every car on the road. On a positive note, that would certainly solve the unemployment problem in this country...lol

Racegunz
05-18-2012, 01:40 PM
Well, there is always passive non-compliance.
I have a saying that I repeat often.... "you're as free as you want to be..... as long as you're willing to pay the consequences and fight for it.
The question is, how free are YOU.?? for most the money comes easier than consequences.

Joe Delene
05-18-2012, 02:11 PM
I only had to send mine in twice to get it right. At 1st they didn't seem to like my make-shift 'bill of sale'. All was fine the 2nd time.

MEdwards
05-18-2012, 02:35 PM
For me the re-registration was an absolute cinch. Worked exactly as it was supposed to. I paid attention and did it the last month and therefore got the expiration as late as possible.

Of course, that was a simple re-registration with no changes. If you have bought or sold, or want to change the registration somehow, then you'd have to re-register the plane anyway, so I don't see how you can complain about the new system not working in that case.

I can see how the FAA would want to clean out their database. The previous approach (asking us "any changes?" every three years) had to be prone to error. I agree it won't do us any good, however. Not only will we be a smaller group to be dealt with, but the estimate of hours flown will almost have to decrease, and therefore our estimated accident rate will increase.

Jim Clark
05-18-2012, 04:40 PM
First lets look at the problem: The FAA registration database was 70% crap. I know this because we recently built a program to print Fly In registrations from the Federal database download to use at the National Biplane fly In and saw first hand what a load of s@#$ the information on the books was.
I have re-registered 4 of 6 airplanes and it was simple and easy. Sure I don't like the extra 5 bucks but I do think it is important to have real data on aircraft in todays world. Just recently I received a call from the feds asking if I had operated my aircraft N618N from Florida to South America, specifically Columbia, and back. I advised them I had not and the agent replied, "Didn't think so as the number was registered to a 1929 Waco CSO that really couldn't muster 230 kts." He assured me that they would get to work on tracking the aircraft using my registration number. Gosh, maybe that is a reasonable purpose to have a valid data base.
I have changed N#s on multiple aircraft with no problems and have bought basket cases, put them back in the air, and processed registrations without a hitch. I guess I just don't see the problem

Bill Greenwood
05-18-2012, 05:42 PM
Jim , you say you "don't see the problem".

Well, mostly in my opinion, it is just more pointless red tape and paperwork. Unlike you, I don't fear or suspect that someone is using my N # in Columbia.

But to be even more specific, this morning I went on line to the FAA site and tried to print out these forms. First page you come to it has a blank to fill in your N number; no problem with that. But next it asks some other registration code. I look over the paperwork, no such code. So I phone the FAA number to ask for help. After a reasonable hold time, perhaps 8 minutes, I get a nice lady. She tells me the # should be on the paperwork, and where to look, but it ain't there. She tells me to click "forms" on the website, but "forms" ainlt there either. So she tells me she will mail me the forms. I asked her why they just didn't mail me the forms needed when they sent out all these notices. She doesn't know, it was all done by a computer, no logical thinking was involved.

I tried to go back on line, and even called the FAA back about this supposed re registration code. Another short wait on hold ( a hello of a lot better than United Airlines) and another nice lady. She expalins that this mysterious code was on the first notice sent out months ago , but for some reason is not on the paper the FAA just sent me. So I can't get this code and can't get the paperwork on line.

Now if I had not been put off by the whole idea when I got the first letter months ago, I might have tried to register then , and if I had read the whole page of bumf, I do see half way down the page that the FAA will mail you the correct form if you phone or fax them, so that is what we are doing, and probably what I should have done back then. Frankly, I think I also had in mind that the FAA might even change or get talked out of this nonsense over the winter, but no such luck.

So, let me say that both ladies were very polite, but it is still a waste of our time, and I am certain that it is not going to benefit me and doubt if it is anyone else, except maybe give full employment to the FAA.

And Jim, did you guys ever have that Biplane fly in over the years before the FAA decided to add this in ? Was it successful then? I have particpated in dozens and organized some fly ins and even airshows and never needed any FAA database. Some of the best ones I ever went to were when there was no FAA to gum things up.

And no, M Edwards, I didn't buy or sell any planes recently, just trying to continue to own them as before. One I have had since 1983 until the FAA decided that maybe I don't really own it or shouldn't own it.No changes in N number or titles, no registering in any other name, real or corporate, no shell names.

rosiejerryrosie
05-19-2012, 07:47 AM
Hey guys - if there is gonna be a registered airplane database at all, what's wrong with trying to make it accurate? My personal experience - when I was contemplating changing the Lycoming engine in my Aeronca 65LA, I went to the FAA database and found that there were 52 Aeronca 65LAs registered in the US. With the magic of the computer, I wrote letters to all 52 asking about their expereince with the engine and their source of parts. Fully 50% of the letters were returned as undeliverable by the post office. Of those that were delivered, one generated a reply asking why I was bothering her father who had been dead for 12 years, one indicated that the airplane had burned in a hangar fire and one that the airplane was currently in a museum somewhere. Why have a database at all, if it is going to be that inaccurate? Asking me to fill out a form on my computer, give my credit card number and hitting send does not appear to be that much of a problem. It is just about as hard as buying a coffee mug from eBay, or renewing my EAA membership.....but then it is not the Federal Gomment requiring it, which makes all the difference...
As one writer pointed out above - the Feds didn't require him to re-register his car. Guess that it was the state and not the Feds made it all the more palitable....

steveinindy
05-19-2012, 10:50 AM
I've been working for 12 years to get my wife's name changed to her married name

There's a reason why we're not putting our aircraft in our names but rather in the name of the company. Actually, there are several, but that's one of them.


But, there must have been at least one employee with time on their hands and/or perhaps a grudge against private general aviation.

I think they all work at either CAMI or the Indy FSDO. I've yet to run into anyone at either location who has anything I could classify as a 'grudge'. Hell, several of the FSDO guys were volunteers for one of the GA based charities I'm sort of involved with.


And not one pilot will be any safer, or have any benefit at all from having any more red tape on file with the FAA

Remember that the true role of any government agency is to ensure it's continued existence by doing as much busy work as possible so that they can show how important they are. Whether it serves a practical purpose is beside the point...


The Aircraft Registry has always been a pain in the butt to deal with even BEFORE the new system.

Even the guys I know at the FAA tend to use a lot of four letter words describing that branch. One of the senior guys I know at CAMI actually refers to the Aircraft Registry division as the "pre-retirement parking lot".


I advised them I had not and the agent replied, "Didn't think so as the number was registered to a 1929 Waco CSO that really couldn't muster 230 kts."

Jim, if it could, I would be begging you for a ride in it even more than I already do.


Unlike you, I don't fear or suspect that someone is using my N # in Columbia.

You'd be surprised how many times it happens. I've seen two planes with the same N number at the same airport before. Someone had some (*cue Ricky Ricardo*) 'splaining to do on that one I bet. Rule #1 of stealing someone's N-number: try to avoid parking two planes down from the guy whose number you're using. ;)

martymayes
05-19-2012, 02:20 PM
First lets look at the problem: The FAA registration database was 70% crap.


Hey guys - if there is gonna be a registered airplane database at all, what's wrong with trying to make it accurate?

I agree with both! However, there was already a mechanism in place to register aircraft and keep the database current. It's called regulations. The only thing missing was compliance. So how do we solve that? Hummm, I know, lets create more regulations! I bureaucrat's dream for sure. But that's not what this is all about. It seems every time the term "user fee" is mentioned, aircraft owners and pilots get their feathers in a ruffle. Certainly there must be a way to create a revenue stream, like a user fee, but do it in such a way that the fees are indirect and not really noticeable. Not not only will the owners and pilots be oblivious to the fact they are paying a user fee, they will think it's a great idea. Looks like the bureaucrats were right.

FlyingRon
05-19-2012, 03:13 PM
They already had the Triennial survey, there just was no incentive to fill it out. Oddly enough, the triennial was EASIER to deal with (and free) compared to the current preregistration scheme.

Mike M
05-19-2012, 07:26 PM
As one writer pointed out above - the Feds didn't require him to re-register his car. Guess that it was the state and not the Feds made it all the more palitable....

if i implied it was more palatable, i implied wrong. i specifically cited an incident of national import which proved that registration did NOT deter auto theft nor facilitate speedy apprehension of criminals, including serial murderers. i'd have as much value from making up my own license plates and posting them on facebook. where in the Constitution does it authorize the federal government to register ANYTHING you own? but the tenth amendment reserves that right for - kaCHING - the states, so i gotta qicherbichen there.

rosiejerryrosie
05-20-2012, 08:55 AM
where in the Constitution does it authorize the federal government to register ANYTHING you own?

Prolly in the same place it authorizes the creation of the various classes of airspace. After all - the air is free how can someone even propose to regulate it?

Jim Clark
05-20-2012, 08:13 PM
Prolly in the same place it authorizes the creation of the various classes of airspace. After all - the air is free how can someone even propose to regulate it?I don't know Jerry. I'm beginning to think some of these guys are right. It should be up to every State to regulate and register aircraft. That way we would have 50 different Aviation administrations and our pilots licenses would only be valid in the state we received it. That would simplify everything.

Pearson
05-20-2012, 09:29 PM
Can someone give me the phone number to call to talk to the registration lady at the FAA?

martymayes
05-21-2012, 05:12 AM
Can someone give me the phone number to call to talk to the registration lady at the FAA?

All the current contacts are here:

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/contact_aircraft_certification/

Pearson
05-21-2012, 04:54 PM
Thanks Marty!

Mike M
05-22-2012, 07:49 AM
It should be up to every State to regulate and register aircraft. That way we would have 50 different Aviation administrations and our pilots licenses would only be valid in the state we received it. That would simplify everything.

big smiley face here. that's not what i meant and you know it. i neither wrote nor meant the states should regulate aircraft operations. registration of aircraft is not an enumerated function of the federal government and is thus a state function. just like motor vehicle registration. the majority of states agree, they have state aviation administrations and register aircraft already. or are you advocating the federal government should register motor vehicles and certificate their drivers?

is your motor vehicle operator license and registration only valid in the state of issue? of course not. why not? Article IV, Section 1 of the United States Constitution. which is why a marriage license/certificate is valid in all fifty states, and a concealed carry license/permit, and ......sorry, thread creep.

Eric Brown
05-26-2012, 10:23 AM
Interesting deal. I was reading the forums, took a break and went to my mail box to pick up the mail. In the mail was a brand new registration certifcate for my airplane. I had applied and payed online for re-registration on 5-20. It's now 5-26. I'm totally surprised !

Jim Clark
05-26-2012, 08:54 PM
It was easy, wasn't it? Worked the same way on each of my aircraft so I guess I'm just not sympathetic to those that make a simple thing difficult.

PaulMillner
08-10-2013, 08:44 AM
>> which is why a marriage license/certificate is valid in all fifty states...

Oh yeah? Don't tell my gay nephew that, unless you have time for a lecture! :-)

FlyingRon
08-10-2013, 08:56 AM
It was a pita. You get the letter, you can't renew as soon as it comes because it won't accept it. You wait too long (within a month from expiration) and you can't renew it online either. God help you if you never receive or otherwise lose the letter. There's no way to get the registration code needed for online without it or have it reissued. Not only is it a complete waste of time the implemenation is incredibly stupid.

Mike Berg
08-11-2013, 01:56 PM
Guess I don't really see a problem with having a data base of currently active aircraft. I happen to know there are at least four or five hangar queens on our little airport that will never probably see the light of day (or wind under their wings). Having said that, I agree the five dollar registration "fee" will likely be used as a cash cow and open for 'adjustment' because everyone knows only rich people own airplanes even though my neighbors boat most likely cost a lot more than my little putt putt.

JimRice85
08-11-2013, 03:59 PM
How often do you have to renew your car's registration? How long does that take? Can you do it online? How much does it cost?

I'd rather not have to reregister and pay the $5, but it just isn't that big a deal and has been absolutely painless. Yeah, they might raise the fee. Are you going to stop flying over another $5 or even $50 spread over three years. Would you rather have user fees?

I've had zero problems with the new system after three different instances. In all cases, I had the new registration in about a week.

FlyingRon
08-11-2013, 06:59 PM
My car registration can be done instantaneously online from any time up to a year before it expires and even after it expires. I can print a completely valid temporary registration that covers me for up to 15 days (it typically only takes the state a few days to get the real registration). Compare that to the utter debacle that the FAA registration is. It's pointless. No need. No revenue. Just busy work for all invovled. Net loss to the tax coffers.

Trackwelder
10-17-2013, 07:39 PM
I have to register the aircraft with the state and the feds, it really doesn't make much difference (just borrow someones number from far away)