LSA qualified Classics

[Badcellist]

After many, many years and many hours flying high performance SELs, I have decided to make a sojourn into the world of a downgraded (no offense intended) PPL to Sport Pilot. That being said, I have been reviewing the specs for a variety of Classic aircraft with the intent to purchase one that I can fly under the LSA category. The Luscombe 8A is one that (with some attention to Max gross weight) seems to fall into that category.

My query is: Are there other classics that are candidates for LSA that I should also consider and what are the hidden pitfalls for which I should be aware?

[Dana]

There are lots. J-3 Cubs, of course, though Cubs are slower (and more expensive!) than almost any other aircraft of that vintage. All B model Taylorcrafts. Aeronca Champ, probably Interstate Kadet, Porterfield, many others. Cessna 120, I think (but not the 140). Some models of Ercoupe (later ones, like the C-140, have too high gross weight). Later Lucsombes are too heavy, too. The rag and tube planes like the Cubs, T-Craft, and Champs are probably easier to repair than the all metal planes. There's a wing strut AD on the T-Craft and I think there's something on the Luscombes, too.

Note that you can't reduce the gross weight of an aircraft to meet the LSA specs; if it was ever certificated at a higher gross weight then it's permanently ineligible for LSA.

[Dave Stadt]

Neither the Cessna 120 or 140 qualify. Same 1450 pound gross weight for both.

[cluttonfred]

Here is a partial list from EAA that covers the more common ones.http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/standard_certificate_aircraft.htmlDon't forget that there are many light, low and slow experimental amatuer-built aircraft that can be flown under Sport Pilot rules. J-3 Cub replicas, Pober/Corben single- and two-seat Ace models, Pietenpol Air Camper and many more.

[Badcellist]

Note that you can't reduce the gross weight of an aircraft to meet the LSA specs; if it was ever certificated at a higher gross weight then it's permanently ineligible for LSA.

Thanks for the heads-up... This is a tidbit for which I was unaware...

[Bob Dingley]

I owned two of the "classics." A 7AC Champ and a Luscombe 8A with a 1250 GW. I later converted it to an E model using a factory letter as authority.

I liked the Champ, but I really liked the Luscombe because it was faster. 85 MPH vs 105 MPH. Also, the Luscombe was/is the only classic that was approved for aerobatics. I had an aerobatic supplement to my POH.

The Champ rode better in turbulence than the 8A/E. 8's through 8C's have a 1250 GW. The rare 8D is 1310 and the E's and F's dress out at 1450.

Bob

[Badcellist]

An interesting twist to the Sport License...

As I mentioned, as part of a plan to fly under the Sport Pilot category (downgrading my PPL) and avoiding the requirement for a 3rd class medical exam I went to my local FBO yesterday to plop down my PPL, Logbook, and CA drivers license and complete a BFR.

As I was about to start the BFR in a Cessna 162 Skycatcher, the Flight Instructor mentioned that I would be unable to rent this plane even if I had a current BFR. When asked why, he informed me that a 3rd class medical was required if I wished to rent it unaccompanied by a Flight Instructor.

I think this falls under a 'Catch 22'. Yes, you can have a Sport Pilots License but, No, you can't use an airplane...

Ergo, the BFR ended abruptly. It appears that there are other limitations to the Sport Pilot License beyond the flight and loading specs....

If I want to fly in the left seat as a PIC, I just as well get my 3rd class medical and fly the Mooney's and Pipers in which I have many hours...

Food for thought.

[Dave Prizio]

The FAA does not require any medical (other than drivers license) for LSA flying, but many insurance companies that cover FBO rental fleets do. It sort of defeats the purpose of the LSA regs, but until insurers get a clue as to the safety of the drivers license medical it appears to be something we have to deal with.

For my personal LSA airplane the insurance company has no such requirement.

Dave Prizio

[Badcellist]

For my personal LSA airplane the insurance company has no such requirement.

Dave Prizio

You answered my unstated query... That is - if I buy a Luscombe 8A, or equivalent, will I be able to get insurance as the PIC?

I may go ahead and get my 3rd class anyway. Although, at 62, I am concerned about passing it... :confused:

[Matt Gonitzke]

You answered my unstated query... That is - if I buy a Luscombe 8A, or equivalent, will I be able to get insurance as the PIC?

Why not simply call an insurance company and find out? That's the only way to know for sure...

[Bob Dingley]

Another course of action could be to find a soaring center and get an additional private glider rating. It counts as a revue. THEN buy your LSA compliant classic. Good luck.

Bob

[Frank Giger]

As I was about to start the BFR in a Cessna 162 Skycatcher, the Flight Instructor mentioned that I would be unable to rent this plane even if I had a current BFR. When asked why, he informed me that a 3rd class medical was required if I wished to rent it unaccompanied by a Flight Instructor.

That's crazy - I'm a Sport Pilot and wonder why they would have a Skycatcher if they can't rent it out to Sport Pilots or those flying under Sport Pilot rules.

I think the FBO was being way too cautious on the one hand and too lazy to call the insurance company to clarify on the other.

[Badcellist]

Another course of action could be to find a soaring center and get an additional private glider rating. It counts as a revue. THEN buy your LSA compliant classic. Good luck.

Bob

This is one of those 'why didn't I think of that' situations.. :-)

[Badcellist]

Great idea... Now, where did I put that number... ;-)

[Badcellist]

Why not simply call an insurance company and find out? That's the only way to know for sure...

Oops, forgot the quote... As I said, great idea...

[rosiejerryrosie]

You answered my unstated query... That is - if I buy a Luscombe 8A, or equivalent, will I be able to get insurance as the PIC?

I may go ahead and get my 3rd class anyway. Although, at 62, I am concerned about passing it... :confused:

If you are concerned about passing it, I'd suggest that you just let it lapse and go the drivers license route. If you are denied a medical, you will not be able to use your drivers license as a medical. If you have never been denied a medical the drivers license rule is good for you.

[kscessnadriver]

That's crazy - I'm a Sport Pilot and wonder why they would have a Skycatcher if they can't rent it out to Sport Pilots or those flying under Sport Pilot rules.

I think the FBO was being way too cautious on the one hand and too lazy to call the insurance company to clarify on the other.

No, they bought the Skycatcher to do primary training in. They probably have no desire to let someone without a medical fly the airplane when they can schedule it with people who have one. If I had an LSA at a busy flight school, you would be darn sure I'd look and see what the difference in insurance is when you don't allow pilots with no medical to be the PIC of the aircraft.

[Badcellist]

No, they bought the Skycatcher to do primary training in. They probably have no desire to let someone without a medical fly the airplane when they can schedule it with people who have one. If I had an LSA at a busy flight school, you would be darn sure I'd look and see what the difference in insurance is when you don't allow pilots with no medical to be the PIC of the aircraft.

With all respect to those who are flying under the Sport License rule...

I have thought long and hard about the issue of DL vs 3rd class medical. I have also reflected upon the limitations imposed upon the AC type and the flying that is permitted as a Sport Pilot vs my PPL.

Although a 3rd Class Medical does not guarantee that I will not fall out of the sky due to a severe physical event (heart attack, stroke, et al), as a PIC, I accept the responsibility for the life and safety of both my passenger(s) and people on the ground. If I choose to find a 'get around' for a medical condition that may prevent me from flying as PIC, I am violating that trust and responsibility.


That being said, and for what it is worth, I will meet with a flight surgeon and take a physical for the 3rd class medical.

If I fail the physical, I will 'hang up my goggles' and reflect upon the blessing that I have had in the many hours I flew.

If I pass, you won't be able to pry me out of the left seat... :-)

As for the hardware - 3rd class medical in hand... Give me a AcroSport II and there will be a few new holes in the night sky....

[kscessnadriver]

With all respect to those who are flying under the Sport License rule...

I have thought long and hard about the issue of DL vs 3rd class medical. I have also reflected upon the limitations imposed upon the AC type and the flying that is permitted as a Sport Pilot vs my PPL.

Although a 3rd Class Medical does not guarantee that I will not fall out of the sky due to a severe physical event (heart attack, stroke, et al), as a PIC, I accept the responsibility for the life and safety of both my passenger(s) and people on the ground. If I choose to find a 'get around' for a medical condition that may prevent me from flying as PIC, I am violating that trust and responsibility.


That being said, and for what it is worth, I will meet with a flight surgeon and take a physical for the 3rd class medical.

If I fail the physical, I will 'hang up my goggles' and reflect upon the blessing that I have had in the many hours I flew.

If I pass, you won't be able to pry me out of the left seat... :-)

As for the hardware - 3rd class medical in hand... Give me a AcroSport II and there will be a few new holes in the night sky....


Don't get me wrong, I don't think a Sport Pilot should have to have a medical. I'm all for what we have today. But if I had $130,000 worth of my money in an airplane, I think that I would say, you know, I want to do it this way.

[Frank Giger]

No, they bought the Skycatcher to do primary training in. They probably have no desire to let someone without a medical fly the airplane when they can schedule it with people who have one. If I had an LSA at a busy flight school, you would be darn sure I'd look and see what the difference in insurance is when you don't allow pilots with no medical to be the PIC of the aircraft.

Weird. Mostly when one sees a Skycatcher for training it's for Sport Pilots - which don't have a medical!

If I was going to require a medical to do flight training I'd buy a Cessna 150....loads cheaper and easier to train in.

But it's their airplane and they can do what they want with it.

I suspect they just don't want to rent it to people they don't know well and are using the insurance dodge as an excuse.

[kscessnadriver]

Weird. Mostly when one sees a Skycatcher for training it's for Sport Pilots - which don't have a medical!

Nothing says they can't have a medical though. And FBO's are most certainly picking up 162's for more than sport pilot training, which is very much a niche market. They are picking them up so they can run a new airplane right around 100/hr for students who want the new airplane feel.

[Badcellist]

Just thought this might clear up a few queries... from http://flightphysical.com/Exam-Guide/CV/index-cardiac-amd.htm A good website that is worth a visit...

"There are many types of heart problems, and all are significant to aviators. ALPA reports that 23% of almost 10,000 pilots contacting their office each year do so for cardiovascular disease. If your doctor tells you about a heart problems, or you suspect symptoms, don't take immediate dispair! The FAA granted nearly 6,500 Special Issuance Authorizations/SIA (waivers) for pilots with coronary artery disease in 1997. Of these, most were for coronary artery disease or heart attacks (myocardial infarctions). The majority of these pilots were treated with bypass grafting, angioplasty and/or intracoronary artery stents. The FAA granted 509 waivers for First Class, 512 for Second Class and 5,555 were for Third Class Certificates. Pilots with heart valve replacements, rhythm disturbances, pacemakers and heart failure were also granted waivers. According to Virtual Flight Surgeons, only 0.1% of medical applications to the FAA receive a final denial."

Based on these numbers, only 3 pilots/year are denied a medical through the process.

There is a bit of work to do, such as Stress testing, ECG, et al. The good news is that those of us who may have had issues in the past, and have taken better care of themselves since the incident, may still pass the 3rd class.... I did undergo bypass twelve years ago and my cardiologist tells me that I have the heart of a 62 year old.. wait a minute - I am 62!?!?

Food for thought (as long as it is low in fats and cholesterol :-) )

[Amphib Ian]

A few years ago I sat in on a Sport Pilot presentation at SunNFun by "Doctor Dave" ... author of the exhaustively complete and funny but kinda disorganized Sport Pilot Encyclopedia. He practically shouted at us that if we loved to fly but were concerned about passing our next medical, to NOT TAKE ONE. Failing meant never flying solo/PIC in airplanes again. He said first take a mock medical unofficially testing all parameters and then decide if worth the risk... or just resign yourself to old age and head straight for sport pilot status. Someone who just bought the kinda old original SPE version says its latest added reg update pages now advise people to not sell their too heavy too fast too many seats airplanes right away either since there is a chance the AOPA/EAA no medical for fixed pitch fixed gear <180HP request to FAA might fly later this year.
PS I have noticed some online shady dealing on used supposedly SP eligible aircraft that aren't. Yes, brand new LSA versions of stuff like Zenith and Arion Lightning with detuned engines, no speed mods, or fine pitch props from day one are approved and licensed originally as LSA and OK. But older versions of the same aircraft may not be. You can't just say "I'm operating what was a 1400 pound gross aircraft exclusively under 1320 now" nor can you just take the slick wheelpants and controllable prop off a Lightning experimental and now claim it is OK to fly the same airframe that last year zipped along at 160mph as a Vh 120 LSA. It will fly of course but ramp check or investigation after gahd forbid accident will screw you to the max... likely also disqualifying you for payout from that insurance discussed elsewhere on this thread.

[Badcellist]

... by "Doctor Dave" ... first take a mock medical unofficially testing all parameters and then decide if worth the risk... there is a chance the AOPA/EAA no medical for fixed pitch fixed gear <180HP request to FAA might fly later this year.

Ian,

Wow, talk about a 'prop strike'..... more damage than is apparent from the outside...

After I had my 'procedure' 12 years ago, I had given up on the idea of flying PIC again and never attempted a 3rd class flight physical, ergo have never been denied. Then, as outlined previously, I discovered the SP rule and went down that path... only to discover the additional limitations in renting an airplane as a PIC due to FBO insurance requirements... Then, after additional research, discovering that there is a possibility to 'pass' my 3rd class so, I filed a flight plan and taxied out to take that journey (figuratively speaking)...

So, your recomendation, based upon Dr.Dave's presentation, is:

Have a 'mock' physical, review the results with the Flight Surgeon and, based upon his considered opinion and without a guarantee for success, go official and cross my fingers
OR take the Sport Pilot route with its limitations and look for an FBO whose insurance carrier recognizes the SP rule
OR await the results of the AOPA/EAA 'no medical' effort and the amenability of our government to acquiese
OR ad infinitum, ad nauseum....

Whew, lot to think about.

[Badcellist]

After reflecting on many of the comments in this post, I decided to call around San Diego to see if I could get the PPL downgrade (no offense intended), complete a BFR and be able to rent an LSA as PIC....


SUCCESS.... I found a club that meets these qualifications. I am scheduling the BFR and getting back off the ground..... :cool:


I think that I will persue a 'MOCK' physical as suggested by Ian, but wait for the results of the EAA/AOPA efforts in the PPL self certifying efforts before I do anything else.

Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions... :D

[Frank Giger]

No offense taken, but it's not a downgrade - it's a limitation on when you can fly (and how high).

If you're a big IFR guy that loves flying at night it might seem like a downgrade - but if most of your flying is daytime VFR below 10K with only one passenger it's just the same (although in a light aircraft).

I was talking to a guy that owns and flys a Champ today about Sport Pilot rules (he was suprised that someone under 50 would hold the ticket) and he started laughing; paying for a medical for him is kind of dumb when he thought about it....

[Badcellist]

No offense taken, but it's not a downgrade - it's a limitation on when you can fly (and how high).

If you're a big IFR guy that loves flying at night it might seem like a downgrade - but if most of your flying is daytime VFR below 10K with only one passenger it's just the same (although in a light aircraft).


Frank,

Thanks for the comment. I never completed my IFR but, when current, flew high performance hardware for 90% of my FT with night as big part of that. The night flying was always the best part of my hours logged.

It's not much of a stretch to decide between flying light, two occupants, under 10K altitude, in daylight OR not flying PIC at all.

I am looking forward to the BFR and flying not unlike I did in the straight tailed, coffee grinder radio, Cessna 150 flying that I did back in the 60s. Whew, that was a LONG time ago... ;)...

I am going on holiday for the rest of May and will do the BFR when I get back. I will let you know how it goes.

This brings up a new query, since it has been so long since I have wandered around the skies, skirting TCA's, etc., anyone have a suggestion for an iPad app that will help me refresh for the BFR? Bringing up my flying skills is less of a concern than bringing my PILOTING skills... I think that I will post another messageon this topic...

[Frank Giger]

skirting TCA's

Wow, it has been a long time for you!

:)

[Badcellist]

Wow, it has been a long time for you!

:)

Frank,

I completed my PPL in 1968 at the age of 18 at Brackett Field in Pomona, CA.

I could only find one of my logbooks. There is a newer one that is MIA. In the logbook I have... the final entry was in 1988 when I took my family in a Mooney from San Jose, Ca to Riverside, CA for a family reunion... I probably logged another 120 hours after that but, since the logbook is missing, I do not have a record of when or what. It is probably twenty years ago since I sat in the left seat...

Really looking forward to flying again.:cool: