Marvel Mystery Oil?

[skyship]

Lately I'm hearing some remarkable things about Marvel Mystery Oil used as a fuel additive in aircraft, from a VERY experienced and competent mechanic and aircraft owner. (I've read positive evidence from others who are using it too, in everything from lawnmowers to bombers.) Presumably this is not technically an authorized (i.e. legal) aviation product, but based on his testimony I think I'll start using it myself in my P&W-powered warbird. Anybody else out there using it and care to share thoughts or experiences?

[martymayes]

I use to use it to soak parts in cause the place I was working at the time had a 50 yr supply.
It's just a naptha based solvent with a mystical reputation. The testimonials are legendary, kinda like the guy that accidently got the car with the 50 mpg carburetor. Fuel and oils are formulated to give good performance. Adding solvent is not going to make them any better. The last ditch sales pitch used to be "it won't hurt" but I'm not so sure about that.

[Max Torque]

MMO input worth reading: http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?22472-To-MMO-or-not-to-MMO&highlight=marvel+mystery+oil and

http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_52_thinking_about_oil_changes_196730-1.html

and http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm

Basically it's some oil, mineral spirits, dichlorobenzene (about 0.25%), red dye, and a bit of Wintergreen oil for fragrance.

The military certainly used it by the 55 gallon barrel back in the days of planes with round motors which correlates with your warbird. FAA is reported to have used it in their DC-3s too.

It does seem to help loosen up sludge and such just prior to an oil change (1 pint for about every 6 qts an hour or two prior to change).

FWIW - The guys who run it in their fuel say it seems to help with keeping deposits from building up in low compression engines using 100LL.

Read the MSDS for some good info on composition, health hazards, etc.

[flyingriki]

Wow - this stuff?
1,4-Dichlorobenzene (p-DCB, para-dichlorobenzene) is an organic compound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound) with the formula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_formula) C6H4Cl2. This colorless solid has a strong odor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odor). In terms of its structure, the molecule consists of two chlorine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine) atoms substituted for hydrogen at opposing sites on a benzene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene) ring. p-DCB is used a pesticide and a deodorant, most familiarly in mothballs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothball) in which it is a replacement for the more traditional naphthalene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthalene). p-DCB is also used as a precursor in the production of the polymer poly(p-phenylene sulfide) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly(p-phenylene_sulfide)).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Dichlorobenzene#cite_note-Ross-0)

[flyingriki]

Or this stuff:
1,2-Dichlorobenzene is obtained as a side-product of the production of chlorobenzene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorobenzene):
C6H5Cl + Cl2 → C6H4Cl2 + HClThe reaction also affords the 1,4- and small amounts of the 1,3-isomer. The 1,4- isomer is preferred over the 1,2- isomer due to steric hindrance. The 1,3- isomer is uncommon because chlorine, like all halogens, are ortho/para- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophilic_aromatic_substitution#Ortho.2Fpara_d irectors) directors in terms of electrophilic aromatic substitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophilic_aromatic_substitution) and the 1,3- isomer is a meta- compound.
It is mainly used as a precursor to 1,2-dichloro-4-nitrobenzene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,2-Dichloro-4-nitrobenzene), an intermediate in the synthesis of agrochemicals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrochemical).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,2-Dichlorobenzene#cite_note-Booth-1) In terms of niche applications, 1,2-dichlorobenzene is a versatile, high-boiling solvent. It is a preferred solvent for dissolving and working with fullerenes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullerene). It is an insecticide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insecticide) for termites and locust borers.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

[martymayes]

The chlorinated hydrocarbon in MMO likely came from carbon tetrachloride, a solvent used in the old days before it's hazards were known. I can see some guys sitting in the back corner of a garage, after a few to many drinks, mixing up solvents like carbon tet and naptha in a can of mineral spirits, naming it "mystery oil" and selling it like carpet baggers.

I do like the testimonials....I remember the one where the guy got 13 mpg in his new chevy, added some MMO at the next fillup and his gas mileage went to to 21 mpg. Amazing stuff.....lol.

There's millions of internal combustion engines running around the world without MMO and they seem to get along just fine.

[Bill Greenwood]

Vets tell me back in the good ole days when both the airlines and the FAA had airplanes with by god real piston engines like DC-3, D-6 etc. , that they bought and used Marvel oil by the 55 gal drum. That's not proof that it works,but pretty good hearsay.

There are many people who will tell you their theory or honest belief. Some of them are trying to sell you something, but some are earnest and honest.
The problem is belief is not the same as proof. I know a school in Florida that tried multigrade oil in their Merlin and claims it almost runied the engine. Meanwhile guys with the same engines in Calif or Canada are doing just fine on multi oil. And some dinosaurs in England still use single grade mineral oil!

Virtually no one does real factual large scale testing like would be done on a new medicine. Nobody take 50 new or fresh oh engines and runs 25 of them on single grade oil and the other 25 on multi, all the way to run out. And to be more exacting it would have to be under the same conditions, like a twin having one engine on one oil and the other on another oil. Even then you'd need a double blind study where the neither the pilot nor the mech knew which oil was going in which engine.

By the way I use Marvel in my fuel as a top-end lube for valves and stems. I can no more prove it works than I can disprove it. I see less reason to put a thin oil with some solvent which is what Marvel is, into engine oil, unless you are running something like plain mineral oil like back in the 50s. A modern AD oil like 15-50 or 20w-60 already runs pretty clean in an engine and doesn't seem to me to need an extra flush out.

[Max Torque]

Bill Greenwood - you pretty much nailed it. To some it's snake oil, to others it's magic oil. To me it's a pretty good oil thinner & sluge loosener on some engines immediately prior to oil change. It's an ok penetrating oil too. Except for what I just listed, I don't use it in my fuel or oil. Today's oils are very well formulated and far superior to what was available back in WWII. I agressively lean my long time since overhaul O-300 during taxi and flight and I don't have any problems with buildup/leading with 100LL. Same for the other old low compression engines I've flown.

Flyinriki - Instead of going to wherever you cut & pasted your posts, take a look at the MSDS - it lists the type of dichlorobenzene.

martymayes - the MSDS lists p-dichlorobenzene (1,4 dichlorobenzene). I'm just going with what is listed there.

[martymayes]

The reality is there is no science to support the (sometimes ridiculous) MMO claims. No evidence that it removes sludge, lubricates cylinders, etc. Only hope and faith and I try to keep those out of my flying activities.

I use this really neat stuff in my engine. It's called motor oil. Works like magic. I also put something in the fuel tank. It's called gasoline. Amazingly good stuff, but it's expensive!

If you want an oil additive contact Ed Kollin at camguard. Some products really are tested and verified with science, not mystery.

[Joe Delene]

More snake oil than marvel for me.

[Bill Greenwood]

The Camguard guys talk some interesting stuff. But as far as being "tested and verified by science" I have never seen any reports of any large scale unbiased factual testing like I described above. Nothing more than they tried it in an few engines and it seemed to work ok.
Marty if you have results of any such real testing, how about posting it here for us to see.

Aviation Consumer likes Camguard, but again no big test results. It is expensive stuff. Marvel is fairly cheap and has been used for so many decades by so many operators that it probably doesn't harm an engine and may well do some good especially in the big radials.
The main engine overhaulers that I spoke to didn't seem to be even aware of camguard. My overhauler did suggest that I use it in my Cont TSIO 520-UB to combat valve stem wear.

[Tom Downey]

There is nothing as good for increasing engine life as early oil changes, It has been proven that the additive package in the oil is pretty much gone away in 15-20 hours.
Our old engines were designed to run clean pure single weight oil. with basically no additives, and when you start pouring additives in, you are simply waisting money by over dosing the engine. The oils that comply with the Lycoming snake oil additive have chemical polishing agents that in fact shorten the friction clutches in most Continental engines like the 0-200 key start and all the engines with a side way mounted starters 0-300-D thru 0-520 all have friction clutch starters.

I'm with Marty on this,, clean, single weight, AD oil, and change it early.

[Aaron Novak]

Hey Guys,
Couple things to add. One ingredient left off of the MMO list is Tricresyl Phosphate, it does contain it. Also I have heard people say that " its just mineral oil", well there are many types of "mineral oil" and they each behave differently. From a purely technical standpoint, MMO does have some benefits running in an engine, both fuel and oil. As someone that works in engine design, I would never hesitate to use MMO as perscribed.

[flyingriki]

Bill Greenwood - you pretty much nailed it. To some it's snake oil, to others it's magic oil. To me it's a pretty good oil thinner & sluge loosener on some engines immediately prior to oil change. It's an ok penetrating oil too. Except for what I just listed, I don't use it in my fuel or oil. Today's oils are very well formulated and far superior to what was available back in WWII. I agressively lean my long time since overhaul O-300 during taxi and flight and I don't have any problems with buildup/leading with 100LL. Same for the other old low compression engines I've flown.

Flyinriki - Instead of going to wherever you cut & pasted your posts, take a look at the MSDS - it lists the type of dichlorobenzene.

martymayes - the MSDS lists p-dichlorobenzene (1,4 dichlorobenzene). I'm just going with what is listed there.

Yeah: "...used as a pesticide and a deodorant, most familiarly in mothballs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothball)"..... just what I want in my engine.....! Oh wait...it has wintergreen in it. Gee that makes it much more effective.....for..... at least it'll smell nice.

[Tom Downey]

Yeah: "...used as a pesticide and a deodorant, most familiarly in mothballs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothball)"..... just what I want in my engine.....! Oh wait...it has wintergreen in it. Gee that makes it much more effective.....for..... at least it'll smell nice.

actually oil of wintergreen is a very good penetrating oil.

My daughter designs builds and installed spectrograph machines of the free electron type. I sent here a sample of MMM, and asked her to run it and tell me what was in it. her answer, a light distillate oil, i.e. diesel or solvent, red dye, and oil of wintergreen.

[flyingriki]

Tom Downey (http://eaaforums.org/member.php?138-Tom-Downey)

This message is hidden because Tom Downey is on your ignore list (http://eaaforums.org/profile.php?do=ignorelist).View Post

L (http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?1669-Marvel-Mystery-Oil&p=13665#post13665)ove this function! :thumbsup:

[Tom Downey]

Tom Downey (http://eaaforums.org/member.php?138-Tom-Downey)

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ignoring input, is not the way to learn.

[Aaron Novak]

Why is it when discussions like this come up, they are always filled with more emotion than facts? Flyingriki, if you are scared of the ingredients that make up MMO, I suggest you never go near an engine.....ever. There are far worse things in your fuel and oil. I look at it this way, unless someone has some valid testing to support their opinion, it isnt worth anything. So how many people here posting one way or another, have actually taken the time to investigate MMO in either lab or running engine testing? Im betting far fewer than how many are passionately posting about it.

[Max Torque]

flyingriki - you really need to fall back and do some internal evaluation and self-auditing. You haven't the courage to list your experience or background in your "about me" in your profile yet you have a propensity to make crass and degrading posts like you know what you're talking about...which, judging from your posts, you certainly do not. If you don't have anything positive to contribute, then I think most of us would prefer that you don't contribute at all.

[martymayes]

According to the MSDS, MMO contains mineral spirits, not mineral oil. Mineral spirits is a solvent. MMO still claim the actual ingredients remain a "mystery" ya, right. Modern chemistry is stumped by this product..lol.

MMO has a boiling point of ~170F (depending on which MSDS is correct) so dilute your engine oil with MMO and what happens? When the engine reaches normal operating temperatures, MMO boils off and is gone. Probably leaves some residual trace contamination in the oil. So when one hears a claim that MMO provides long term engine protection between oil changes (and the reality suggests it exits the engine breather or exhaust pipe in the first 15 min. of engine operation), some skepticism about that claim may be warranted. Perhaps another marvelous "mystery" ingredient suspends the laws of physics.....? I dunno.

Another issue, MMO flash point is close to kerosene. So mixed in with fuel at the ratio of 1-2 oz per gallon, or roughly 100:1, perhaps slows down the combustion process by 1/1,000,000 of a second? That makes the engine run noticeable smoother, cooler, more power, etc.? Really? And since it quickly burns up during the combustion process, not sure what hangs around to "lubricate" upper cylinder components. Seems like whatever function MMO claims to provide as a fuel additive could be duplicated close enough with kerosene or diesel. Regulating bodies will classify it as fuel contamination but what the hey.

The credibility of 99% of MMO testimonials rank right up there with the urban legend about the car with a 50mpg carburetor. We wanna believe it's true......and it's tough getting through the initial denial stage. Kinda like when reality convinces a kid the easter bunny, tooth fairy and santa clause are not real even though his parents perpetuated this myth for the first several yrs of his life. It's tough to let go.

[Max Torque]

martymayes, I think you made a typo - did you mean MSDS instead of TCDS?

[martymayes]

martymayes, I think you made a typo - did you mean MSDS instead of TCDS?

I think you are right.

[Sirota]

I started adding MMO to my fuel on the suggestion of my IA to lubricate my fuel valve. 2 valve "overhauls" in the first 2 years I owned the plane. None in the 3 years since. I don't know if it boils off during combustion but it sure seems to help my valve.

[WLIU]

Not sure I know any more than anyone else who has posted to this thread, but I will offer some observations from a lot of years watching various folks care for, or abuse their engines.

As noted earlier, for many years we ran radials on mineral oil not AD oil. And we had only screens on the air intake and for the oil. No filters. You gets lots of deposits and sludge. Adding a solvent to those engines helps clean them up. Today we can buy AD oils that are better. You can add an oil filter. Still no air filters. So Marvel Mystery Oil was an improvement to straight weight mineral oil in the engine. Today, a poster observed that a lot of additive packages are gone in some number of hours. But folks want to to 50 hour oil changes and wait to 2000 hrs to overhaul. Hmmm.... sounds like adding something to refresh the additive package is a good idea. Is MMO the right answer? Don't know but do nothing might be a bad idea too.

The Lyco camshaft additive is greatly misunderstood. The camshaft works pretty hard and Lyco chose to locate it where it does not get as much splash lube from the crank as it sometimes needs. The cam additive puts some stuff on the cam that is represented to have better high pressure wear surface properties. You do not need this in a Continental as the camshaft is located where it gets more lube (under the crank). So if your Continental starter adapter does not like the Lyco cam lube, don't buy it. I find it amusing how many folks think that Continentals and Lycos are interchangeable and can be care for, fed, and operated the same. They have different needs and personalities and if you want to run them out to or beyond TBO, you had best learn their individual strengths and weaknesses.

Getting back to MMO, there are lots of parts between the fuel tank and combustion chamber that can benefit from a few of the ingredients in MMO. Valves live a very hard life and every little ingredient that can clean carbon off of the valve seat and valves is a good thing. Don't know if MMO is the right answer but I have observed that O-200, C-145 and O-300 operators have fewer of the problems that occur with the top end of those engines when they use MMO in the fuel and oil. Never understood why, but the observation is persistent and the owners of these engines that often need early cylinder work seemed to go longer before having to spend those $$.

For what its worth, I have never used MMO in anything, but I run my engines as hard as the Lyco and Continental factory manuals allow, exactly as those manuals specify( Note: I follow the engine manufacturers procedures, not the airframe manufacturer's info). The engines that I see have problems are most often flight school engines that spend a lot of time at low power settings, and owners that try to economize by flying with the throttle back and the engine running cool. Its is actually better for an engine to run hard so long as you manage the temps properly. I think that Mr. Busch has written a lot about that topic.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Tom Downey]

Maybe we should invite Ed Kollin at cam guard to come over and talk. he was on AOPA for a while.

[Aaron Novak]

According to the MSDS, MMO contains mineral spirits, not mineral oil. Mineral spirits is a solvent. MMO still claim the actual ingredients remain a "mystery" ya, right. Modern chemistry is stumped by this product..lol.

MMO has a boiling point of ~170F (depending on which MSDS is correct) so dilute your engine oil with MMO and what happens? When the engine reaches normal operating temperatures, MMO boils off and is gone. Probably leaves some residual trace contamination in the oil. So when one hears a claim that MMO provides long term engine protection between oil changes (and the reality suggests it exits the engine breather or exhaust pipe in the first 15 min. of engine operation), some skepticism about that claim may be warranted. Perhaps another marvelous "mystery" ingredient suspends the laws of physics.....? I dunno.

Another issue, MMO flash point is close to kerosene. So mixed in with fuel at the ratio of 1-2 oz per gallon, or roughly 100:1, perhaps slows down the combustion process by 1/1,000,000 of a second? That makes the engine run noticeable smoother, cooler, more power, etc.? Really? And since it quickly burns up during the combustion process, not sure what hangs around to "lubricate" upper cylinder components. Seems like whatever function MMO claims to provide as a fuel additive could be duplicated close enough with kerosene or diesel. Regulating bodies will classify it as fuel contamination but what the hey.

The credibility of 99% of MMO testimonials rank right up there with the urban legend about the car with a 50mpg carburetor. We wanna believe it's true......and it's tough getting through the initial denial stage. Kinda like when reality convinces a kid the easter bunny, tooth fairy and santa clause are not real even though his parents perpetuated this myth for the first several yrs of his life. It's tough to let go.

Hey Marty,
MSDS sheets only list "hazardous" ingredients typically, and not nearly the complete chemical makeup. The bulk of MMO is selected mineral oil base stocks.
-Aaron

[jhw]

If you want to pour something in your crankcase to dissolve sludge then a batter choice might be something that is designed to operate in that environment like 2-stroke oil.

[Bill Greenwood]

Wes writes "still no air filters" . Why not? I don't know of very many planes that don't come with air filters from the factory, and I can't think of any new car in years built without air flliters. I can never understand why anyone would want to run an expensive engine, on the ground or in the air while sucking in raw dirt, whether factory of homebuilt. Especially since there are now such good filters available, paper or foam.
Way back in the 40's top fighters like Mustangs and Spitfires came with air filters, sort of a compressed element, not perfect but much better than nothing.
About late 50s Chrysler was factory racing with stock cars on dirt oval tracks. They found a 300 hp engine might lose 50 hp over the course of a race from sucking dirt in the straight open intakes, no filters., thus a lot of ring wear and loss of power. So they developed the paper air filter and it has been available for 50 years, and now we have even better foam ones.

I have seen some P-51 pilots who will go on ad inftinty about some techno gadget in the cockpit, probably now a debate about using I pd 3 or Ipad 4. Yet they fly their multimillion dollar 51 with the $100,000 engine with no, that is none, air filters. Some say it makes it easier to do plug changes. Meanwhile you can bet that whatever car they drove to the airport, even some cheap made stuff, has an air filter to preserve it's $6000 engine.
They may tell you they only fly in clean air. If you belive that, when you come home after spending a day at the airport , get a clean white washcloth and wipe off your arms and the back of your neck, see what that white looks like after that. And an engine sucks in a lot more air than your skin encounters.
I know one Merlin engine builder that owns a 51, and he sure has filters on his own plane. I think Jack Roush has filters also,and most T-6s seems to also.

[Aaron Novak]

If you want to pour something in your crankcase to dissolve sludge then a batter choice might be something that is designed to operate in that environment like 2-stroke oil.
Nooooooo never add a 2-cycle oil to your crankcase, many times the additive packages dont "Play Well" together.

[Tom Downey]

Nooooooo never add a 2-cycle oil to your crankcase, many times the additive packages dont "Play Well" together.
if you have been running a good AD oil, what will happen when you pour in a qt of 2 cycle oil?

IMHO nothing.

[martymayes]

Hey Marty,
MSDS sheets only list "hazardous" ingredients typically, and not nearly the complete chemical makeup. The bulk of MMO is selected mineral oil base stocks.
-Aaron

I thought the ingredients were a "mystery" ???? .

Since MSD Sheets only list hazardous ingredients, perhaps you can explain why google can locate a MSDS for distilled water, vinegar, mustard and ketchup? Certainly those items do not contain "hazardous" ingredients?

[martymayes]

Nooooooo never add a 2-cycle oil to your crankcase, many times the additive packages dont "Play Well" together.

So we are being admonished to never add 2-cycle oil to an engine crankcase, but on the other hand, adding MMO is perfectly okay? lol....not following the logic.

[Aaron Novak]

if you have been running a good AD oil, what will happen when you pour in a qt of 2 cycle oil?

IMHO nothing.

Actually something CAN happen. Basicly the dispersent package used in aviation 4-cycle oil and your typical TCW-3 oil are completely different. Under the right conditions certain dispersent packages can react and actually gel. Not all oils have these additives, however you as the consumer will never know whats actually in your oil, and so the safer bet is to not gamble.

Marty, there is a BIG difference between MMO and typical 2 cycle oil, not even close to the same chemistry. Care to explain why you seem to have this hostility towards a simple petroleum product? Marketing will always tend to go "over the edge" when selling a product, however if you know what the product contains, and what those ingredients are good for reguarding a particular application, you can weed through the BS and use sound logic. I do know what MMO is, both from supplied information from the manufacturer, and testing in our own lab at work. Believe it or not, even pure mineral oil cleans intake valves and combustion chamber deposits as it acts as a scavenger. So you have your clean mineral oil, some solvents the specificly loosen up oxidized petroleum residues ( varnish ), TCP as an anti-scuff and lead scavenger ( although really too low in concentration to scavenge much lead ), and a little dye. Ok, from an engine designers and tribologists perspective, all good things.....so whats the deal?

[martymayes]

No hostility Aaron. Also not gullible and have no hope and faith (all required for one to be a believer) that MMO is a cure-all miracle product as claimed in testimonials.

[rosiejerryrosie]

If you want to pour something in your crankcase to dissolve sludge then a batter choice might be something that is designed to operate in that environment like 2-stroke oil.

And why would anyone want to disolve sludge that is sitting happily in the bottom of the crankcase and have it floating around all those moving parts? Not trying to be a wiseguy, really interested in knowing.....

[Aaron Novak]

Marty,
Thats why I said that you need to weed through the marketing BS, and see what a product is from a fundamental engineering perspective. Same line of thought goes for lubricants, engines, airframes, avionics, welding technology, paints, glues, etc. SO what I am saying is, purely from an engine designers perspective, there are positive attributes to the chemicals in MMO for certain applications. Do I like all the hype? No, I work in engineering, not marketing. However I wont discredit the engineering attributes of something, just because of overzelous marketing.

[Tom Downey]

And why would anyone want to disolve sludge that is sitting happily in the bottom of the crankcase and have it floating around all those moving parts? Not trying to be a wiseguy, really interested in knowing.....
This is a very valid point, and the reason we use a non "D" oil in engines that do not have filtration. we want the sludge to stay at the bottom of the sump. and remember the "D" is not for detergent, it is for dispersant it does not clean your engine it only prevents slugging, and allows the oil to carry the yuck to the filter.

[Tom Downey]

Actually something CAN happen. Basicly the dispersent package used in aviation 4-cycle oil and your typical TCW-3 oil are completely different. Under the right conditions certain dispersent packages can react and actually gel. Not all oils have these additives, however you as the consumer will never know whats actually in your oil, and so the safer bet is to not gamble.

That's pretty far fetched, seeing as the 2 cycle oil and mineral oil can be blended together and run in a 2 cycle engine, plus the new 2 cycle oils are a lipid oil and thus a synthetic, and there are semisynthetic oils on the market in aviation.

There is a way to find out, simply put the two in a glass jar shake it up sand see what happens when you heat it to the temps we see in our engine oil. I believe nothing will change except the viscosity.

OBTW, there are no dispersant package in 2 cycle oil that is meant to be burned.

[Aaron Novak]

That's pretty far fetched, seeing as the 2 cycle oil and mineral oil can be blended together and run in a 2 cycle engine, plus the new 2 cycle oils are a lipid oil and thus a synthetic, and there are semisynthetic oils on the market in aviation.

There is a way to find out, simply put the two in a glass jar shake it up sand see what happens when you heat it to the temps we see in our engine oil. I believe nothing will change except the viscosity.

OBTW, there are no dispersant package in 2 cycle oil that is meant to be burned.

Hi Tom,
Actually there are dispersents as well as detergents. As far as being "far fetched", well its a rare set of circumstances that it can happen, however it has, which is what prompted the investigation. Is it likely, no. BTW where did you get lipids from in 2 cycle oil??????

[Tom Downey]

Hi Tom,
Actually there are dispersents as well as detergents. As far as being "far fetched", well its a rare set of circumstances that it can happen, however it has, which is what prompted the investigation. Is it likely, no. BTW where did you get lipids from in 2 cycle oil??????

OFF the label of the gallon I just bought.

you need to read "OIL TALK FOR DUMMIES" at
http://www.eci.aero/pdf/BreakInInstructions.pdf

There are no detergents allowed in Aviation oil. and 2 cycle oil has none because of the metallic additives are not allowed to be burned. It's a EPA thing.

Please site your reference

[martymayes]

Getting back to MMO, there are lots of parts between the fuel tank and combustion chamber that can benefit from a few of the ingredients in MMO. Valves live a very hard life and every little ingredient that can clean carbon off of the valve seat and valves is a good thing. Don't know if MMO is the right answer but I have observed that O-200, C-145 and O-300 operators have fewer of the problems that occur with the top end of those engines when they use MMO in the fuel and oil. Never understood why, but the observation is persistent and the owners of these engines that often need early cylinder work seemed to go longer before having to spend those $$.

Wes, looked like this operator had different results:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20020916X01610&ntsbno=NYC02LA181&akey=1

[Aaron Novak]

OFF the label of the gallon I just bought.

you need to read "OIL TALK FOR DUMMIES" at
http://www.eci.aero/pdf/BreakInInstructions.pdf

There are no detergents allowed in Aviation oil. and 2 cycle oil has none because of the metallic additives are not allowed to be burned. It's a EPA thing.

Please site your reference

Tom,
Sorry I should have been more clear. Its not uncommon for 2 cycle oils to have both dispersents and detergents. There are other detergents besides metallic ash, and the EPA does not control any of the metallic ash anyway.
My reference is my employer, and unfortunately as much as I would love to send you internal reports, I cannot.

[Aaron Novak]

Wes, looked like this operator had different results:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20020916X01610&ntsbno=NYC02LA181&akey=1

Marty,
Notice how much was added? Nobody really knows. However it is a sure bet it was well in excess of the 100:1 ish ratio typically used. Mixed at 100:1 there is no octane reduction outside of normal parameters....that has been tested. However mixed at 25:1 you can loose 3 or 4 points of octane and affect AFR. My guess is that the oil was mixed way to heavy, and perhaps was poured into only partially full tank, and not mixed well causing it to be pulled into the fuel system. Thats the only way I could explain the fuel actually feeling oily downstream.

[Tom Downey]

Tom,
Sorry I should have been more clear. Its not uncommon for 2 cycle oils to have both dispersents and detergents. There are other detergents besides metallic ash, and the EPA does not control any of the metallic ash anyway.
My reference is my employer, and unfortunately as much as I would love to send you internal reports, I cannot.

I'll stick with my original opinion that nothing will happen when you add a quart of 2 cycle oil to your aircraft engine oil.

Mind telling us what you do for a living? we won't care who or where you work.
Me? I'm simply an old A&P-IA that has had a few engines apart and knows what he sees.

[Aaron Novak]

Hi Tom,
Sure I work for Mercury Marine in the engineering department, if you are into boating then you might recognize the name. Im not trying to argue with anyone, I just have the privelage of having access to a pretty nice materials labratory, experts in the field of lubrication, and have been able to do some real testing. Just trying to share what I have learned and know....nothing more.

[martymayes]

Notice how much was added? Nobody really knows.

What we know is that an engine failed and the fuel was contaminated with Marvel Mystery Oil.

[Aaron Novak]

What we know is that an engine failed and the fuel was contaminated with Marvel Mystery Oil.

Ok, so really nothing. From a failure analaysis perspective those 2 facts are pretty worthless. There just isnt any data there to support anything one way or another. Unfortunately half-done failure reports like that do nothing but add confustion.

[turbo]

back in my day of sailing and operating an atomic 4 gas engine, sticking valves were a problem. using mmo in the fuel solved the problem. the stuff worked!

my o-360 lyc went 3,150 hrs on the hobbs using mmo. valves, comps, cylinders, oil consumption, were fine. the cam lifter started making metal.

my new o-360 has 950 trouble free hours using mmo in the fuel and oil. to me it is like vitamins, i take them, i feel good and my vital signs are good. each to his own.

1773

[ben]

This is the same hype as power steering fluid which is just hydraulic oil. Type F transmission fluid has been used for years as an upper valve lube when mixed with gas and that's all MMO is.

[Amphib Ian]

All anecdotal and hunch. I consider MMO a solvent or sludge fighter - "hot supper" in a bottle. Didn't I read somewhere three other ingredient are pig fat, perfume, and dye? Dad was Army Air Corps WW2 and growing up I saw even he limited use of it to ground-based equipment that was pretty tired or experiencing treatable ailments... never for the life of machine/vehicle. Usually when something was pretty far gone, rough idle, sticking valves, coming out of negligent storage, etc and sometimes it did provide, like an antacid but likely opposite mechanism, some relief of the problem. When poverty forced me to pick up cheap neglected used cars and high time planes, I did the same, with the same occasionally helpful results postponing the "try to fix it or just junk it" decision. But on those occasions (gone forever?) when I could afford pure fun cars/aircraft/inboards I could also usually afford Camwhatsit so that is what I'd add beginning after breakin - just to vehicles getting infrequent use (like boats and classic cars). No substitute for nor supplementation needed to good quality clean oil in everyday use. Even when the usage analysis programs in my newer GM stuff driven exclusively highway in warm climate tell me oil doesn't need to be changed for 40 or fifty thousand miles or more. I change the first load at 500 miles and then wait for the signal or a year, whichever comes first.

[COMM114]

As long as I have been flying, the myths and legends surrounding Mavel Mystery Oil are ever present.

This much is true: MMO is not an approved additive for fuel or engine oil in any type of certificated aircraft engine. Period. For experimental aircraft, you can use it by the gallon but you have entered the realm of the true test pilot. Good luck with that.

As with prescription drugs, their is no such thing as an additive without side effects. Remember Mobil 1 oil for aircraft? It had lots of engineering behind the product but still was causing lots of problems. Do you really know what MMO is doing inside your engine, oil or fuel? If you have some very expensive engineering data for us to review, please share. Otherwise, the wonders of MMO are right up there with Yetti sightings.

As others have suggested, fly your aircraft often and change oil and filter every 25 to 50 hours. Use an approved aircraft engine oil. Many engineers and oil companies have examined and tested these products for their use as specified. Can you say that for MMO?

M. Young

[turbo]

i know some bonanza owners who swear by the stuff. those engines have terrible valve issues but using mmo they reach tbo. hmmm.

[Frank Giger]

And why would anyone want to disolve sludge that is sitting happily in the bottom of the crankcase and have it floating around all those moving parts? Not trying to be a wiseguy, really interested in knowing.....

Hmmm, I guess if one is running some just before the oil change (as some suggested) it would be good to get the gunk out; otherwise I suppose the thought would be to free it up to go through the oil filter.

[Bill Greenwood]

M. Young asks if you can say that Marvel has been tested? And of course it has, by over 90 years of widespread use by airlines, military, and other owners, in the field in real use,not just by boffins.
If it was likely to do any harm that would be apparent by now, and I have never heard of even one engine damaged by Marvel oil.
Mobil 1 is a different case, it looked good in the lab, but that was over a relatively short time, not decades of actual use. And Mobil 1 was to totally replace normal engine oil, not just be a small volume addative.
Just curious, does anyone know what was in Mobil 1 that caused the problems? I have never known for sure, but think they rushed it onto the market. It seems to work well in cars, doesn't it? other than some leaks reported.
Can one be sure that Marvel is doing good,is worth the small amount of money? No, not anymore than taking some extra vitamin B and C when you might be getting a cold is proven.
As far as claiming that Marvel is not approved for use, I have never heard anyone from the FAA make such a statement or discourage use of Marvel.

I am a Bonanza owner who uses it in the fuel of my Cont TSIO 520-UB, in which I had major exhaust valve trouble in the past. So far no valve trouble yet, did have a cracked cylinder. I try to use it especially in cold weather, it was recommended by my overhauler. And using Marvel does not change or affect oil changes, do them same as before. I can't say that I expect to reach TBO with or without Marvel. The Bonaza is a fine plane, but many Continentals have had more valve problems than Lycomings. I had one cylinder with zero compression, the exhaust valve actually was missiing a piece like a slice being cut out of a pie.

As for Rosie writing, as "gunk sitting in the bottom of your crankcase", I don't think so. Anyone who is using a modern ashless dispersant engine oil is probably going to have a pretty clean engine, without a lot of "gunk" sitting anywhere. And if you have a full flow paper type oil filter, ( you should) that is going to remove impurites pretty well. And some people call A D oil, "detergent" which is wrong, there hasn't been any detergent in airplane engine oil made in years, since the 50s. These people may also call mineral engine oil, "non detergent", which is factual, but silly, they might as well call mineral oil, "non mustard" or "non vodka", since it also doesn't have these, but then neither does A D oil.

[Mike M]

M. Young asks if you can say that Marvel has been tested? And of course it has, by over half a century of widespread use by airlines, military, and other owners, in the field in real use,not just by boffins.
If it was likely to do any harm that would be apparent by now...

MMO was developed in the 1920's by a guy who designed and built carburetors, to make Marvel carburetors work better. presumably, without harming the engines those carbs were mounted on. just a wild guess here, but if one is using a Marvel carb then using the additive developed by the guy who designed the carb might make sense.

http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/index.php/site/about/

who still uses Marvel carbs today?

http://www.msacarbs.com/
http://www.kellyaerospace.com/carburetors_charts.html
http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/prodparts.asp?catid=6&subcat=13&mfgid=AVS
etc etc etc


...does anyone know what was in Mobil 1 that caused the problems?

yes. not what was in it, what wasn't:

http://www.avweb.com/news/news/182891-1.html

[Aaron Novak]

As long as I have been flying, the myths and legends surrounding Mavel Mystery Oil are ever present.

This much is true: MMO is not an approved additive for fuel or engine oil in any type of certificated aircraft engine. Period. For experimental aircraft, you can use it by the gallon but you have entered the realm of the true test pilot. Good luck with that.

As with prescription drugs, their is no such thing as an additive without side effects. Remember Mobil 1 oil for aircraft? It had lots of engineering behind the product but still was causing lots of problems. Do you really know what MMO is doing inside your engine, oil or fuel? If you have some very expensive engineering data for us to review, please share. Otherwise, the wonders of MMO are right up there with Yetti sightings.

As others have suggested, fly your aircraft often and change oil and filter every 25 to 50 hours. Use an approved aircraft engine oil. Many engineers and oil companies have examined and tested these products for their use as specified. Can you say that for MMO?

M. Young

M.Young,
In fact there are many engineers at engine companies that have tested the materials that are in MMO and their function in an engine. Simple stoddard sovents and mineral oils make up the bulk of chemicals sold to clean varnishes from fuel system components, clean intake valves, etc etc. There really is no mystery in MMO, and thats what I always stress to people. See it for the chemicals it contains, and use sound logic to determine its usefulness. The engineering data you ask for is in the hands of every oil company and engine company out there, however as you know it rarely ever leaves the doors of engineering. There are business legal issues with an engine company saying you can run additive XYZ unless it is either sold uder their own label, or there is some performance specification ( API, SAE, JASO, ASTM etc ) that they can specify.

[58boner]

Holy crap, anyone want to buy a bridge!

[EAAbipJ3]

A good sales man can sell anything to anyone who does not need what they are selling. Even if it is the best stuff ever made for everything. LOL! Change your oil at the times specified and you won't go wrong.

[Bill Greenwood]

Question for EAAbip ? You say "change your oil at times specified and you won't go wrong". What does that have to do with Marvel oil? Nothing on the Marvel can or in any literature that I have ever seen or even heard about has anything to do with not changing the oil at specifies times. I have never read or heard of an owner who says he is not changing oil because he is using Marvel. So I think that idea exist only in your head. If you don't like Marvel that is fine ,but don't try to set up a case against them on some bogus boogey man.

And as far as your "won't go wrong" , that is nonsense. While oil changes a normal 25 or 50 hour interval is a good practice, it alone does not make an engine failure proof. I have had exhaust valve failure and turbo failure in my Cont TSIO 520 despite regular oil change, both before I used Marvel and I use it in the fuel, not the oil.

And as for as "a good sales man can sel anything to anyone who does not need what they are selling" , who is the "good sales man" in you tale? I haven't seen Marvel hawking its product at EAA or elsewhere. It is carried by independant dealers ,but it don't see the type of over claims that other products have.

[knickc]

More snake oil than marvel for me.

I agree with everyone regarding the efficacy of this product, it is like anything a person is "Sold", a good product if it didn't do any harm to alter one's opinion! On the other hand, one individual mentioned Camguard, and that is indeed a good product with the appropriate testing and results to prove same. It's designed, among other things, to protect parts such as cams from rusting when engines aren't run on a regular basis, which is true for many of us. This is particularly true of Lycoming's where the cams are only lubricated when the engine is running, hence the oil drains off when they sit allowing the potential for rust to develop. My last real job (I volunteer at the Frontiers of Flight Museum, Dallas, TX) was with Superior Air Parts, so understand the problem and how Camguard is a good solution, and yes it's in my Comanche's O-540! Also, never heard one engine shop ever suggest MMO was a product they would recommend anyone use!

[Blue Chips]

60 Post, wonder if anyone's mind is changed :D

I've used that stuff for decades (regularly) in numerous air cooled engines including a number of aircraft over many hundreds of hours, did it help? no idea, did it hurt anything? no real idea there either, my use was only as an upper cylinder lube though.

[tspear]

60 Post, wonder if anyone's mind is changed :D

I've used that stuff for decades (regularly) in numerous air cooled engines including a number of aircraft over many hundreds of hours, did it help? no idea, did it hurt anything? no real idea there either, my use was only as an upper cylinder lube though.

I doubt it. I know I do not use it :D
Based on what a few mechanics have told me, one of the few uses I would try if needed is for a sticky valve. Fill the cylinder with MMO and pull the prop through to push the MMO against the valve and create a hydraulic lock; let it sit overnight and flush. The solvent aspect of MMO will sometimes fix this problem.

Tim

[1600vw]

I doubt it. I know I do not use it :D
Based on what a few mechanics have told me, one of the few uses I would try if needed is for a sticky valve. Fill the cylinder with MMO and pull the prop through to push the MMO against the valve and create a hydraulic lock; let it sit overnight and flush. The solvent aspect of MMO will sometimes fix this problem.

Tim

I would find a new mechanic....

[Blue Chips]

I would find a new mechanic....
I've some personal stories and opinions about so called "Certified" aircraft mechanics, same with "Certified" instructors as well as "Certified" parts" that are not in the least comforting and certainly "Certified" is not all that it is cracked up to be and certainly not all bad either. With regard to the use of MMO, considering the decades of use in countless types of engines by countless individuals with no history whatsoever of causing any failures/damage and countless of those that felt it is helpful that it would be a very reasonable, almost singular conclusion to consider it safe to use in spite of the fact it has not gone through any aircraft certification process. This is not my recommendation to use MMO but my own personal sentiment about the product.
I used to have a goal to see what was the best mile Per gallon I could get with this Harley I owned and the MPG clearly increased with it's use in test runs. About the only negative aspect ever mentioned about MMO is that it didn't seem to help.

[1600vw]

My comment was not about MM oil but about any mechanic who wants someone to flood the cylinders with anything and cause a hydro lock situation, and to solve a stuck valve problem. I myself like the product and have seen it do some amazing things. I have posted this info before and others just walked over everything I said. I dropped it.

But here is a personal, I saw it with my own eye's type of thing I did with this stuff.

I rebuild the axle in a couple trucks. I had all the old axle grease setting for about 6 months in an open container. One day I decide to drain this container and get me a funnel. I stick the funnel in a 50 gallon barrel and pour this fluid into the funnel. It plugs right up and would not drain. If you ever dealt with axle grease its stinks and I did not want to touch it at all.

I let it drain on its own for about 2 hours and I still had a full funnel. I then grab a drip oil can you use to oil things around the house and shop and dripped TWO drops on top of this greasy sludge. It instantly started flowing, it flowed so fast it made the tornado effect in this grease. After the funnel drained it took seconds I poured more of this sludge into the funnel. It plugged up again and would not flow. I took the oil can and put Two drops on top and again it just took off and again made the tornado effect. I drained all that axle grease in just a few mins. To this day it amazes me.

Tony

[Aaron Novak]

I've some personal stories and opinions about so called "Certified" aircraft mechanics, same with "Certified" instructors as well as "Certified" parts" that are not in the least comforting and certainly "Certified" is not all that it is cracked up to be and certainly not all bad either. With regard to the use of MMO, considering the decades of use in countless types of engines by countless individuals with no history whatsoever of causing any failures/damage and countless of those that felt it is helpful that it would be a very reasonable, almost singular conclusion to consider it safe to use in spite of the fact it has not gone through any aircraft certification process. This is not my recommendation to use MMO but my own personal sentiment about the product.
I used to have a goal to see what was the best mile Per gallon I could get with this Harley I owned and the MPG clearly increased with it's use in test runs. About the only negative aspect ever mentioned about MMO is that it didn't seem to help.

B-C,
I think people can be divided into 3 groups on just about any subject, explaining why internet research is futile at times.

A) people that have little/no understanding of "WHY", and are easily swayed by marketing.
B) people that have limited understanding of "WHY" and distrust all marketing thinking they know better.
C) people that have a complete understanding of "WHY" and use that knowledge to make decisions.

Most people that think they fall into "C", are actually in the "B" group. Few in "A" or "B" will listen to "C", However "A" people will trust a "B". The largest and loudest group is "B". Quietest, smallest, and most seldom heard from usually is a "C" (Mostly because they get tired of group "B" arguing with them) .

[Blue Chips]

LOL, not sure what you are saying but I disagree hahaha

[Blue Chips]

Tony (1600vw),
That is quite interesting on the gear sludge flow.
Those are the type of reports that are beneficial, regardless of the product.

Ken

[Bill Greenwood]

I have found that many mechanics have some prejudices for or against products or procedures. Sometimes they may know and sometimes not. Think of it like this; if you went to the doctor for a knee pain, would you just take a quick solution or would you want to get a fuller explanation. My doctor showed me my xray, and I can see the thinner than normal cartildge due to years of ski racing and running. We discussed how to deal with it, that certain injections may help, with no real side affects and that I certainly don't need any major surgery soon. I have given up running the annual Boulder- Boulder 10k, too much impact. So Iknow what why and how, not just a quickshot opinion. If the mech tells you something ask why, and it should be a better reason than, "I don't use it". If he doesn't use it, or never has how does he know one way or the other. Also a lot of mechs are not airplane owners, may not be pilots and may not fly anything. I recently went to the NWOC with some of the top pilots in the country and a panel of 6 of the top engine builders, 2 for Merlins, 2 for radials, and 2 for Allisons. Someone asked about the use of CAMGUARD and it brought sort of a blank look to everyone's face on the panel. No one really knew anything except they were generally against it. One of the radial engine guys was even from the SAME TOWN where Camguard is made, yet he was a blank. Not one of these guys had even tried it, probably had not read up on it. I had asked the same question at an earlier meeting, with the same blank looks. And you can bet that virtually no one really does a full and fair test of any additive or probably any oil. By that I mean take 100 new engines, run 50 of them to TBO on one additive and 50 without it and monitor the results with oil analysis and teardowns. Or take a fleet of say Barons and run one engine on one oil and the other on another type. No one even comes close to what would be scientific knowledge, provable, repeatable knowledge. What there often is really is only educated guesses and often more guess than education. In one airplane that I fly the struts in the landing gear can leak as they wear and the seals are hard to find and it takes some major work to replace a seal. I read about an additive, Granville strut seal and asked around. Mechs and owners virtually all gave it a thumbs down, but since they had not used it they really didn't know what they were talking about. So we tried it, very little to lose, it cost $75 and only took an hour to service both struts. AND IT WORKED! Now all the experts said when a seal is worn out you have to replace them. Not so fast, Granville will not repair a seal that is torn or cracked but if the seal is just old and has dried out and shrunk it softens and expands the seal and you can gain another year or so of good service and certainly wait till the annual to replace the seal.

[Yellowhammer]

Ive been using it for years. I had a lifter out of prime on my 2006 GMC truck. Solved the issue but I have to add more every now and then.

[rwanttaja]

The A&P who did the annual on our old club Fly Baby started out as a mechanic on Northwest Airlines Constellations. He told me to use MMO on my Fly Baby's Continental to help forestall valve problems. And I have, for the past 30+ years.

Oh, and it has kept the hangar clear of elephants, too.

I posted a story of my old A&P to the Fly Baby web page:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/stories/legacy.html

Ron Wanttaja

[high time cub]

This much is true: MMO is not an approved additive for fuel or engine oil in any type of certificated aircraft engine. Period.


Actually, Kinner service bulletin #130 recommends the application of Marvel-Oil as a valve stem lubricant to extend the life of valves guides.

Best,

HT & V

[Desert185]

I added some to the crankcase of an old Dodge pickup in storage at another state. The engine would run, but not pull a load. I suspected lifter problems after troubleshooting the ignition system. After 20 minutes at a high idle, the truck ran like a top. The solvent will eventually burn off leaving only the engine oil. Normally, I don’t use it, but i always have some onhand for those times of need.

I’ve also had a friend use it in an IO-520 with a noisy lifter. Cured the issue.

[Aaron Novak]

Actually, Kinner service bulletin #130 recommends the application of Marvel-Oil as a valve stem lubricant to extend the life of valves guides.

Best,

HT & V



Not only Kinner. Technical bulletins from American Cirrus and Continental ( for the A-40 ) suggest the same thing.