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mmcgrew
03-24-2012, 08:15 PM
I had promised myself that I would not write this post - but I break promises to me all the time. I have been to OSH many times over the past 30 years of flying. Last year was the first time I made the decision to fly my plane instead of driving or going commercial. I had always been some what nervous of all the air activity that occurs during OSH (arrival and departure). Before the flight, I downloaded the NOTAM and studied it in detail. I made flight notes and checklist of the important items. I arrived on a clear afternoon, flew over Rippon and turned toward Fisk along the rail road tracks. A few miles up the tracks my apprehension hit me full face. Planes appeared off of my left wing, my right wing, on my nose (towards me). under me and over me. The controllers were going wild trying to sort things out. When I received my clearance (acknowledged with a wing rock) another plane cut in and took my landing slot. Shot past Fisk and went for the hold. While in the hold, I waited my turn only to see numerous inbound planes take the lead and make their approach in front of me. I had made up my mind to leave the area and land at one of the alternates but I received clearance for 36L, shot out of the hold, did a left base along the lake and put it on the dot. On the ground I sat in the plane refelected on the past 45 minutes. What should have been a simple procedure (I am Inst. rated) turned into a nightmare for ONE very simple reason. MORON pilots that think the rules and procedures are meant for others. I know other pilots have experienced this same thing and some of you will no doubt post your hair raising experience. But it would be educational to hear from one of the MORONS as to why they chose to disregard procedures, put themself at risk and put others in the air at risk. I would also like to have some input (from the good guys) as to how we can stop this dangerous activity.
Thanks
Michael

steveinindy
03-24-2012, 09:00 PM
This reminds me again why I have little interest in arriving via Fisk.


I would also like to have some input (from the good guys) as to how we can stop this dangerous activity

Fly something fast enough to qualify for the turbine/warbird arrival? ;)

Bill Greenwood
03-24-2012, 10:12 PM
I have flown in via the standard airplane Fisk arrival some years ago as well as the last two years, and didn't have much problem. I sure never saw any airplanes coming directly toward me. Perhaps the difference was that I wasn't preloaded for it to be a bad experience, I was alert but not fearful. Or maybe we came at a less busy time. I have never had to hold, that might get pretty crowded. The only problem I have is that in my Be 36 TC, it is hard to slow down and maintain 100 mph, if I throttle back that much the gear waring horn comes on at 17 inches manifold pressure, so we just lowered the gear and flew that way despite being a long way out.

What day and time did you arrive? What kind of plane?

And it is a day vfr, vmc procedure, an instrument rating has nothing to do with it, and in fact one needs to be looking outside, not at instruments, other than to set up the initial altitude and speed.
And despite your frustration, you landed safely.
And you say you came from Fisk, which is on the SW then made a" left base entry" to the north runway, 36L, "along the lake". I don't see how you did that, the lake is on the east side of the airport, and you would not be over that if you came from the west and made a left base entry.

By the way, warbird/turbine airplanes have their own arrival, but when you get to the runway you still may have to blend in with traffic coming from Fisk to land.

However you come, keep coming and enjoy the convention. Some of us morons like to have fun when there.
Maybe next year bring a friend with you who has done it before, and/or come at a less busy time.

Fred Stadler
03-25-2012, 08:54 AM
Wow, Michael, the account of your only flight to AirVenture is certainly colorful, dramatic, and disturbing. My own experiences have been quite different. Last summer I flew the Fisk VFR arrival to OSH twice, intentionally picking what I hoped would be busy times in order to capture an instructional video. Those flights, as well as others in prior years, were active, but nothing like what you describe.

Let me suggest that you pass along your experiences directly to FAA using their AirVenture feedback form at https://secure.eaa.org/airventure/atc_feedback.html . You will want to be specific as to the time you arrived and your assigned routing. Positive suggestions for procedure improvement are generally more useful than complaints about other pilots.

And I do hope that you decide to fly to AirVenture again this summer, possibly selecting a quieter time of day, such as in the morning hours when arrival traffic is generally lighter.

-Fred Stadler, AirVenture NOTAM volunteer chairman

WLIU
03-25-2012, 03:36 PM
I have been fortunate to arrive at OSH via almost all of the published procesures - the standard arrival over FISK, the warbird arrival, and the NORDO (no radio) procedure. I will suggest that for a first timer, picking your time is really important. My first arrival was NORDO. I intentionally spent the night at Fon du Lac and launched at 7AM since that is when OSH opens and my guess was that I would beat the rush. My arrival was a non-event as there was only one other airplane visible in the pattern. Fast forward a few years and I had the experience of flying an afternoon Warbird arrival in the middle of a formation of 20 and a Beech Baron decided to cut in behind me uninvited. Fortunately my tail end charlie guy called a warning on the radio and I/we were able work around the idiot.

I will agree that based on my arrivals under all sorts of conditions, it is uncommon for things to get out of hand. The ATC guys do a GREAT job. The flip side is that if you are not used to seeing other airplanes in relatively close proximity, it looks like a big fur ball. Calmness is a great asset. If you have other seats in the airplane, bringing friends to be extra eyes is good in many dimensions. And you can always go around, find your way back to Ripon, and try again.

Go back next year and it should be much easier.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

mmcgrew
03-25-2012, 05:59 PM
It was a left base to 36. The lake was off my left wing prior to turning base. I arrived in an Arrow. I had stoped for fuel and waited out the afternoon air show closing and planned my arrival to arrive when the field was open. What I did not know was that after the airshow - priority was given to departing traffic while in bound traffic was placed in a hold. There were probably 30 planes holding to get in. In fact it was so congested - approach was telling traffic at Ripppon to not come up to Fisk but go to alternate airports. Traffic was actually doing a 180 and flying back down the tracks to Rippon (or to leave the area)

Mike

mmcgrew
03-25-2012, 06:17 PM
Bill Greenwood - I just checked the chart. On a left base to 36. A portion of the lake is off of your left wing. A portion is off of your nose and when you turn on final - you do skirt the lake with it off your right wing.

Mike

Kyle Boatright
03-25-2012, 06:50 PM
It was a left base to 36. The lake was off my left wing prior to turning base. I arrived in an Arrow. I had stoped for fuel and waited out the afternoon air show closing and planned my arrival to arrive when the field was open. What I did not know was that after the airshow - priority was given to departing traffic while in bound traffic was placed in a hold. There were probably 30 planes holding to get in. In fact it was so congested - approach was telling traffic at Ripppon to not come up to Fisk but go to alternate airports. Traffic was actually doing a 180 and flying back down the tracks to Rippon (or to leave the area)

Mike

What day was this? I arrived Tuesday evening after the show, did one lap around the lake waiting on something, and had a fairly straightforward arrival. I didn't pick up on the chaos you reported, but there is no question that stacked up traffic during a hold does make things more intense. In general, I won't accept the inbound hold going to Osh or SnF, just because it does get intense. Instead, I'll depart the area and return later. Tuesday evening wasn't particularly busy, so I went against my general rule.

That said, I believe the NOTAM states they attempt to release the bulk of the outbound traffic before opening the field to arrivals in the evening.

Bill Greenwood
03-25-2012, 07:27 PM
Mike, it doesn't really matter much, but if by "the lake" you mean Lake Winnebago, and you are coming from the west on left base from the Fiske area, and about to turn left to 36 L, which is the main north runway, then you are not over or along the lake shore. You would be coming over hwy 41,and down at the south end of field past the small LSA runway. Lake Winnebago is ahead of you to the east of the airport. You would not or should not be over (along) the lake shore as that is the arrival path for the warbirds up high and the seaplanes down low going into the seaplane base. I don't know of a lake that would be off your left wing on base, unless you mean the Fox river which is way up to the north of rny 9-27.
There is a small lake that is in the holding pattern, Rush. It's not really in the traffic pattern to 36 anyway, quite a ways west.

Obviously the big problem and hard luck that you had was to arrive at the most crowded time when the departures were leaving.
One day that you or others may have been waiting to land, I and perhaps a hundred others were taxiing and idling on the ground to take off on 9 or 27. Many of us waited for an hour, except for the Citations and TBMs which were sent around all the other airplanes to the front of the line for takeoff. All that really matters is that we are on the ground safely, the rest is just mundane.
Just come earlier in the day next time. I am not sure if they do, but the notam should make it clear that inbound planes may be delayed at that time.

Kyle Boatright
03-25-2012, 09:02 PM
Mike, it doesn't really matter much, but if by "the lake" you mean Lake Winnebago, ... <snip>.

Bill, there is a lake SW of OSH which is used in the holding procedure for inbounds on the Ripon/Fisk arrival. I believe this is the lake he was referencing.

FlyingRon
03-26-2012, 07:46 AM
Rush Lake is the hold point for the RIPON-to-FISK transition.
There are idiots everywhere. I've been behind a 182 that hasn't quite got the concept of 90 knots as the target speed, then there was this guy:

IDIOT: Bonanza 35X four mile south.
OSH: Are you IFR?
IDIOT: No.
OSH: Do you have the NOTAM?
IDIOT: No.
OSH: (with a resigned sigh) Make straight-in for 36L.
IDIOT: Which one is 36L
OSH: It's the big long one with the numbers on the end and the dotted line down the middle.

TeenDoc
03-26-2012, 08:15 AM
...On the ground I sat in the plane refelected on the past 45 minutes. What should have been a simple procedure (I am Inst. rated) turned into a nightmare for ONE very simple reason. MORON pilots that think the rules and procedures are meant for others. I know other pilots have experienced this same thing and some of you will no doubt post your hair raising experience...

...I would also like to have some input (from the good guys) as to how we can stop this dangerous activity.
Michael,

I can sympathize with you and can say, based on personal experience, that you're not alone. What I'm gonna write now is intended as a simple advice from one pilot to another.

As you realized it by yourself, no matter how much work the FAA and EAA put into designing, implementing and monitoring procedures, ultimately it is up to individual pilots to make the right decision and fly within safe parameters. Unfortunately, that is not the reality.

That it is why I personally choose to fly into Oshkosh as part of one of the mass arrival groups. My group is Cessnas 2 Oshkosh, but the other groups follow similar procedures. I strongly recommend the mass arrival with the group because it is predictable and safer. Each pilot in the mass arrival flight has trained and practiced for it. Each pilot knows exactly what the other pilots in the group, those in his same element, and those in the rest of the flight, will be doing and when. In addition, we practice contingency procedures, in case something doesn't go as planned.

I invite you to check out our website http://www.cessnas2oshkosh.com (http://www.cessnas2oshkosh.com/) even if you are not a Cessna driver. I'm also available by phone. My number is in the Contact Us (http://www.cessnas2oshkosh.com/contact.aspx) page of our website.

I don't know how to solve the "MORON" pilot issue. I haven't been able to solve it at my local airport either. I just look out for them and steer away when I see them, and try to avoid the places and times where and when they are known to be.

rawheels
03-26-2012, 08:35 AM
That does sound like a bad experience. Seems like the first time is always exciting, I remember the spacing getting too tight on our first run because of someone at the higher/faster level "fitting in" at the wrong moment and then having to go back and restart our run too. Oh well, it happens. In nearly a decade of flying in we've had very little real trouble, but you do have to be vigilant. Don't give up.

The worst experience was when the airport was closed because of a crash and we had to circle the lake. Pilots can be such whiners and tattlers; had to exit the holding pattern for fuel, but I wasn't too sad about it.

The controllers are saints. Like FlyingRon, I remember someone coming in and calling 5 miles from the airport, totally unaware of the procedures. After the controller asked if the guy had the NOTAM, he said he had forgotten it at the last FBO. It was very obvious he never had it, as once you've printed it I don't think anyone would think they could glance at it on the way in. Amazingly the controller stepped him through the whole thing; What he probably should have done was to tell him to go back to Madison or somewhere and get the NOTAM before coming back!

Another time they were landing us on 36L&R and a Waco that landed right in front of me on 36R stopped on the runway and was determined that he was going to taxi directly to show center as opposed to taxiing to the end of the runway like the controller was repeatedly & excitedly telling him to do. I ended up doing a go around and the controller put me right in for another landing with a big thank you. Great bunch of people up there!

Kevin O'Halloran
03-26-2012, 09:34 AM
I've flown into Oshkosh for the last 17 years--only had a problem once. A guy in a funk decided to skip RIPON and cut in front of our Baron at Fisk--after missing him by 20 feet--went back to Ripon and started over. We decided to find the guy after we landed and "talk" to him. BUT the airplane Gods had already taken care of him---saw him by the runway with a messed up wing where he had ground looped :D

I now come in on thursday before AirVenture starts. Always come in on a IFR flight plan ( helped when we had the heavy rain in 2010--tower could not see us after we landed:eek:).
We hit the ground running getting stuff ready for B2OSH --Take 4 or 5 truck loads of camping gear from the storage lockers to the north 40 camp grounds, and arrange for the welcome party.
The formation groups are by far the safest, and best way to come into Oshkosh--Its also the quickest way to land over 100 planes and to get them parked.
The formation groups are also the best way to meet some great people and to develop some life long friends
Anyone who comes in with one of the formation groups will tell you they come to Oshkosh because its a great way to see old friends--the planes, airshow, vendors are just icing on the cake :D
Kevin

steveinindy
03-26-2012, 09:37 AM
Rush Lake is the hold point for the RIPON-to-FISK transition.
There are idiots everywhere. I've been behind a 182 that hasn't quite got the concept of 90 knots as the target speed, then there was this guy:

IDIOT: Bonanza 35X four mile south.
OSH: Are you IFR?
IDIOT: No.
OSH: Do you have the NOTAM?
IDIOT: No.
OSH: (with a resigned sigh) Make straight-in for 36L.
IDIOT: Which one is 36L
OSH: It's the big long one with the numbers on the end and the dotted line down the middle.

Honestly, given the number of idiots that strut their stuff annually, I'm surprised we don't have more crashes and that the FAA doesn't suspend or revoke more tickets at Oshkosh. LOL

Rick Rademacher
03-26-2012, 11:27 AM
I believe that Rick Durban said it all in his AVweb Oshkosh Arrival -- Let's Stay Alive This Year in 2008
http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/pilots_lounge_128_oskhosh_arrival_198208-1.html (http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/pilots_lounge_128_oskhosh_arrival_198208-1.html)

If there is no slow plane arrival procedure this year, please be on the lookout for many, many J-3 Cubs flying at 61 knots using the standard Fisk approach. As the mass arrival for Cubs is limited to 75 aircraft and as it takes place at 5 P.M. on Monday, most of the Cubs will be arriving in groups of two or more on Saturday or Sunday from Hartford. We can only approach 90 knots in a power dive with the wings about to depart the aircraft.

We J-3 Cub owners can only dream about doing this ->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLC4El0YJro

steveinindy
03-26-2012, 11:50 AM
We J-3 Cub owners can only dream about doing this ->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLC4El0YJro
LOL Nice....

Speaking of dreams, my dream involves something like this (only with something smaller than a 737 and with a reciprocating engine):
http://youtu.be/HF7byeoKwF0

or something like this but not so slow in cruise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L7UqK3rMJU&amp;feature=related

TeenDoc
03-26-2012, 11:56 AM
The formation groups are also the best way to meet some great people and to develop some life long friends
Anyone who comes in with one of the formation groups will tell you they come to Oshkosh because its a great way to see old friends...

Amen to that Kevin!

MEdwards
03-26-2012, 01:01 PM
Wow, Michael, the account of your only flight to AirVenture is certainly colorful, dramatic, and disturbing. My own experiences have been quite different.Mine too. In 8-10 times flying that approach I've had two minor problems. One when the controller at Fisk asked me if I and the aircraft behind me were "a flight" which told me he was way too close. I never saw him. The other time the aircraft I was following just plain flew off someplace, never turned final for 18 like he was supposed to. Eventually I gave up following him and turned final myself. Not a big deal. Every other time it's gone very smoothly even when there was lots of traffic.

I think you have to be realistic that there will be a few idiots out of the thousands that fly the Fisk approach every year. Credit the vast majority of pilots with adequate skill, concern and consideration, and credit the controllers with more than adequate skill and enormous patience, all of which together make it work.

Bill Greenwood
03-26-2012, 01:07 PM
Rick,you have been breathing too many Jet A fumes. "61 knots, 90 knots"? No real Cub ( that is built by Piper in the 30s or 40s) flys at any knots, anymore than a real Ford Model T goes 50 kilometers an hour.

A real J3, like mine will cruise about 70mph, stall at 38 indicated for landing,and will go 100 mph in a dive. I use about 100 for entry to do a loop, seem to remember VNE is 122 mph, but don't have the data in front of me as the plane is in the shop. I probably will not have it back for Osh, have to arrive in brand B unless there is anyone that needs a co pilot.But I'll be watching. What I'd really like to do is fly my Cub in and land on both the LSA runway and Pioneer field.

Rick Rademacher
03-26-2012, 01:51 PM
Rick,you have been breathing too many Jet A fumes. "61 knots, 90 knots"? No real Cub ( that is built by Piper in the 30s or 40s) flys at any knots, anymore than a real Ford Model T goes 50 kilometers an hour.

Bill,

I know that! I tell people that J-3 Cubs will be flying the Fisk approach at 70 M.P.H. Then they tell me that most aircraft should have no problems staying behind an aircraft going 70 knots. NOT the same speed!

FlyingRon
03-26-2012, 03:36 PM
All the other mass arrivals prearrange direct long finals for 36 L/R. The rest of the crowd is sent to 9/27 while that's in progress.

steveinindy
03-26-2012, 03:50 PM
All the other mass arrivals prearrange direct long finals for 36 L/R. The rest of the crowd is sent to 9/27 while that's in progress.

I see nothing wrong with that and wouldn't mind getting routed that way. It seems like all the high performance stuff that isn't "performing" (or ultra-heavy) gets routed that way anyhow....

mmcgrew
03-26-2012, 05:29 PM
I got from the thread what I wanted - Great discussion and sound advise. Group arrival and early am arrival (good ideas). I can not remember if the NOTAM noted priority for departing aircraft. I will be sure and remember that little bit of info. I do know that here are 100 times more of the "good guys" at OSH then there are of the "MORONS". A second pilot in the right seat is also good advise. This year - keep an eye out for a Piper Turbo Arrow.

Michael

steveinindy
03-26-2012, 05:37 PM
A second pilot in the right seat is also good advice
I always fly with a second pilot. I've never understood a desire to fly alone. It gets boring that way.

Fred Stadler
03-26-2012, 07:06 PM
I can not remember if the NOTAM noted priority for departing aircraft.
For the past several years the AirVenture NOTAM has had the following sentence on page one in the section which lists the times when the airport is closed for the airshow: "Arrivals at Wittman Regional Airport are normally resumed 30 minutes after each afternoon airshow." What this means is that on the days when the airshow ends at 6:30 the airport is first opened to departures only. That allows many more aircraft to depart safely than would be possible if departures were interspersed with arrivals. No one can accurately predict how many departures there will be on any given day, so when tower personnel observe diminishing departure queues, they then allow aircraft to begin arriving from the Ripon-Fisk VFR arrival. That means on a "normal" day, arrivals might begin at 7 PM, but many days are not "normal." Sometimes the airshow ends early and the whole process happens sooner, but any number of situations can delay the opening to arrivals. Anyone planning to arrive in the evening after the airshow should be prepared for the possibility of extended airborne holding. Early morning arrivals are generally much less dramatic.

Jim Hann
03-26-2012, 09:11 PM
All the other mass arrivals prearrange direct long finals for 36 L/R. The rest of the crowd is sent to 9/27 while that's in progress.

Ron, reread what Rick is saying.


If there is no slow plane arrival procedure this year, please be on the lookout for many, many J-3 Cubs flying at 61 knots using the standard Fisk approach. As the mass arrival for Cubs is limited to 75 aircraft and as it takes place at 5 P.M. on Monday, most of the Cubs will be arriving in groups of two or more on Saturday or Sunday from Hartford. We can only approach 90 knots in a power dive with the wings about to depart the aircraft.

His concern is the larger than normal amount of Cubs that will be arriving separate from the mass arrival (mass Slo-Mo arrival?? :D) I would be concerned also, 'bout ran over an Ercoupe many years ago on the arrival, I was doing 85 kts and he was doing 90 mph (I'm guessing). The larger problem is there isn't a lot of spare airspace left to add another arrival "lane" for airplanes that cannot maintain 90 knots.

Rick Rademacher
03-27-2012, 06:24 AM
Jim,

That is my concern! The closing rate of an aircraft going 90 knots upon one going 61 knots (70 M.P.H.) may be a problem for some. As my J-3Cub has no glass in the back, I can’t see what is approaching from the rear. So, I will have to trust the approaching aircraft to do the correct thing.

We hope to have five to ten times more Cubs at Airventure this year than have ever been on the field in the past.

I believe that the EAA and FAA will try to resolve this issue in the Oshkosh Notam for 2012. Now, if everyone would just read that document and know how to act, everyone can have a safe flight into Oshkosh.

Kyle Boatright
03-27-2012, 11:31 AM
I believe that the EAA and FAA will try to resolve this issue in the Oshkosh Notam for 2012. Now, if everyone would just read that document and know how to act, everyone can have a safe flight into Oshkosh. [/SIZE]

I hope you're right. The possibility of coming up behind a Cub, Aeronca Champ, or some other slow mover has always spooked me at SnF or Osh. I can make good decsions on what to do in that instance. My concern is more about what is happening behind me with a stack-up of Comanche's, Bo's, Glasairs, and other aircraft (and pilots) that won't be safe flying a loaded-for-the-show airplane at those speeds.

FlyingRon
03-28-2012, 05:30 AM
I've run up on slow movers (in the this case it was some 182 who seemed unclear on the concept and was bopping along at 70). Simple solution if you can't slow down or S-turn behind him, take a left turn and go back to Ripon. Fortunately for me after I bailed I could see there was nobody behind me so I just kind of made a nice 360 and reentered. I still caught up with the clown before I got to 36.

I think the Fisk guys do an OK once you get there, they'll put the segregate the slow mover from the rest of the traffic.

Other than clogging up the Ripon->Fisk transition, it shouldn't be a problem. People need to have their head on a swivel on the Ripon convergence and closure rate isn't a problem...

Ideally, they should have a lower transition altitude for those who can't maintain 90 like they have the high one for those who can't get down to 90.

90 is an uncomfortable speed in the Navion. It's faster than my gear down speed (but they want the gear down too).

steveinindy
03-28-2012, 05:51 AM
90 is an uncomfortable speed in the Navion. It's faster than my gear down speed (but they want the gear down too).

How so? Does the handling get sloppy or something?

Rick Rademacher
03-28-2012, 07:15 AM
I am so happy we are having this discussion and would hope that the powers to be are listening. I am always amazed how creative we pilots can be.

The 2011 Oshkosh AirVenture Notam clearly states:
Pilots are required to adhere to all published OSH arrival and
departure procedures and to all ATC instructions. Failure to do so
may jeopardize your safety and the safety of others. Enforcement
actions may be taken following ATC and FSDO investigations.
found twice in the notam :
If you have to “S-turn” to follow an
aircraft, break off the procedure; return to
Ripon; and follow another aircraft of similar
speed and altitude.

I have flown as pilot in command into Oshkosh 12 plus times in a 59 Cessna 182, 3 times in a 76 Cessna 210 and once in 2003 in a J-3 Cub. When flying the Cub, no aircraft would or could follow in trail. All would pass on the right of the Cub.

steveinindy
03-28-2012, 07:54 AM
I am so happy we are having this discussion and would hope that the powers to be are listening. I am always amazed how creative we pilots can be.

The 2011 Oshkosh AirVenture Notam clearly states:
Pilots are required to adhere to all published OSH arrival and
departure procedures and to all ATC instructions. Failure to do so
may jeopardize your safety and the safety of others. Enforcement
actions may be taken following ATC and FSDO investigations.
found twice in the notam :
If you have to “S-turn” to follow an
aircraft, break off the procedure; return to
Ripon; and follow another aircraft of similar
speed and altitude.

I have flown as pilot in command into Oshkosh 12 plus times in a 59 Cessna 182, 3 times in a 76 Cessna 210 and once in 2003 in a J-3 Cub. When flying the Cub, no aircraft would or could follow in trail. All would pass on the right of the Cub.

I promise that once I get my plane built, I'll be more than happy to fly behind your J-3. Granted, your cruise speed is ten knots above the stall speed of my design with a full load of fuel, passengers and baggage but if I go light it should open that margin up a bit.

Larry Lyons
03-30-2012, 03:46 PM
I will second the suggestion to come in early for your first time. We purposely arrived just at 7am and were still in a small pack of 6 or 7 but it was interesting but fun. Another way to make it fun is try to come in a flight of 2 or 3 or ? We do that now and then we camp together too. We alway put the most experienced in first ( he handles the radio too) then follow along like ducks. This gives a newbie a lot more confidence and even a bit of time to rubber neck on his way in. Larry

jhw
04-02-2012, 09:32 AM
I promise that once I get my plane built, I'll be more than happy to fly behind your J-3. Granted, your cruise speed is ten knots above the stall speed of my design with a full load of fuel, passengers and baggage but if I go light it should open that margin up a bit.no goes into oshkosh "light"

Kevin O'Halloran
04-02-2012, 09:49 AM
the only things I hate about AirVenture---my face hurts the whole time from muscle spasms because I have this huge smile on my face as soon as I get within 30 miles of Oshkosh:D
And the way my feet hurt after 7 or 8 days of walking the grounds:(
Kevin

steveinindy
04-02-2012, 10:47 AM
no goes into oshkosh "light"

'Light' is a relative term when a third of your MTOW is fuel and you're designing to carry 300 lbs of baggage and 400-800 lbs of people (depending upon how one configures the back of the "cabin"). ;)

Wilfred
04-02-2012, 11:16 AM
I have flown to OSH four times; had to turn around due to weather in Nebraska once. The other three times I arrived over Ripon and used 36L twice and 18L (a taxiway) once. All went well except for a moron ground "handler" that didn't know what he was doing...waved me through a barricade then gave me hell for doing it...I really think this guy was either drunk or high on something...I mentioned earlier I filed a formal complaint with EAA and never heard anything. Air operations were just fine, but for the ONE jerk, the ground handling was really sad.

jhw
04-02-2012, 11:46 AM
'Light' is a relative term when a third of your MTOW is fuel and you're designing to carry 300 lbs of baggage and 400-800 lbs of people (depending upon how one configures the back of the "cabin"). ;)Doesn't seem relevant, whether it's been in a cherokee or a 421 my wife has been able to max it out with "necessities" without even trying

steveinindy
04-02-2012, 12:26 PM
Doesn't seem relevant, whether it's been in a cherokee or a 421 my wife has been able to max it out with "necessities" without even trying

It is relevant because I'm pretty sure that if it's just the two of us, there's no need for us to bring more than 300 lbs of crap. That working baggage load was picked because it equates out to about weight of dive gear for 4 people (I weighed my stuff and multiplied it by four). Theoretically, we could actually carry quite a bit more than that with the lower fuel load but the point remains that some of us will have a little more of a weight margin to play with and if you really need to bring more than three or five hundred pounds of stuff it might be wise to consider whether bringing the kitchen sink is really necessary. LOL ;)

That said, maybe I am just lucky insofar as having a fiancee who packs light for trips.

Jim Hann
04-04-2012, 05:38 AM
the only things I hate about AirVenture---my face hurts the whole time from muscle spasms because I have this huge smile on my face as soon as I get within 30 miles of Oshkosh:D
And the way my feet hurt after 7 or 8 days of walking the grounds:(
Kevin
Kevin, you don't smile until within 30 miles? :) And ONLY 7 or 8 days of walking? :D Heck, I smile like a dum bass as soon as I pull out of the driveway with the camper and stay until I'm walking on my ankle bones (I think my record is 11 days!) :eek:

My summer and funds are still up in the air, but I am going to do my best to be there again as I've only missed two since 1995, we moved in 1998 and my youngest showed up three months early in 2009. See ya there!

Rick Rademacher
05-03-2012, 08:25 PM
The Notam for AirVenture 2012 is now on theAirVenture site http://www.airventure.org/flying/2012_notam.pdf

One of the minor changes from last year is to present both knots and MPH on one chart so that everyone knows 90 knots is equal to 104 MPH. Again, please note that many J-3 Cubs will be using the Fisk approach doing 70 MPH.

The mass flight of Cubs is limited to only 75 before 7 A. M. on Sunday. So, the remaining Cubs at Hartford, numbering up to 150 will leave in groups of 4 or more using the Fisk approach from 7 A.M. to 9 A.M. that same morning. Everyone will want to be on the ground at Oshkosh around the same time.

Remember, if you can’t stay behind Cubs doing 70 M.PH, no “S-turning” and you should return to the end of the line. Sorry, that’s the rules per the Notam.

MEdwards
05-04-2012, 11:31 AM
Sounds to me like the Cub people are trying to be very accommodating by concentrating the majority of their arrivals into a small period of time during and after their mass arrival. Certainly those of us who hear about that can easily avoid that time period. Of course, compared to the number of people flying the Fisk approach on Sunday, the fraction of those that read this thread is about zero percent, so some conflicts and aggravation are to be expected. EAA and each of us can help by getting the word out as best we can.

Jerry Petro
05-06-2012, 08:19 AM
I have often wondered why there is not a low speed arrival at Oshkosh? I have brought my Taylorcraft BC65 twice and both times had aircraft overtake and pass me inbound on the arrival. The first time a Bonanza passed over head by less than 50 feet, I'm sure he never saw me. Since then I fly the arrival 200 feet low to keep from getting run over. There is another thread that questions where all the antique airplanes are ? The answer is, we have been told we are not welcome by the EAA arrival notam. How about a 70 kt arrival at 1600 ft ?

rawheels
05-07-2012, 06:59 AM
I have often wondered why there is not a low speed arrival at Oshkosh?

That is a good question. Seems like it would be just as important to separate the slower aircraft as it is the ones that use the Turbine arrival. It would be awesome if they could open up another arrival path and use the pioneer airport runway for slow or antique aircraft. Although you'd have to add in a bunch of sod replacement work to the budget every year for that.

I'm not sure that you can get the 500' separation in altitude needed for a lower flight level on the approach without getting into the towers. I wonder if you could call the ultralight barn and get permission to use the ultralight runway (~1000' long).

Mike M
05-07-2012, 08:06 AM
...Since then I fly the arrival 200 feet low...


I'm not sure that you can get the 500' separation in altitude needed for a lower flight level on the approach without getting into the towers.

first, i've only flown to KOSH for the show three times. once during the evening rush in an AA5, twice at mid-morning in a Mustang II homebuilt. twice in the low line, second time in the MII in the high. i studied the NOTAM and the chart beforehand, carried them open to the proper place, flew as published, looked out the canopy, and corrected for the excursions of creative PICs around me. study. plan. think. do. no unsolvable problems. 99% of all aviators think they're above average, and if you don't believe me make up your own statistic.

500' LOWER flight arrival path? now, lemme get this through my stupid head. published arrival procedure is 1800' msl and some of us are thinking - writing - about flying lower altitudes? like, fly 200' below the published altitude? field elevation KOSH is 800' msl. i'm a bit slow on math, but i think 1800' msl minus 800' msl equals 1000' agl, which is the minimum CFR 14 pt 91.119 altitude allowable over towns like ripon, settlements like fisk, and open-air assemblies of persons like the friendly aviation advisors at the checkpoints under the route? i might not have written that i willfully violated the CFR, ignored the NOTAM, and intended to do it again. but that's just me.

back to the original question, my input as to how we can stop this dangerous activity - fly the procedures as published.

be heads-up about the potential conflicts over ripon due to PICs flying the rush lake hold too wide while green lake hold entries are flown too late. also the heightened collision hazards as both groups rejoin the stream while looking cross-cockpit for arrivals and simultaneously try to track the plane they're following and time the rollout into trail. the rush lake re-entry track is prone to be a bit sharper than a right-angle turn, too, a bit more head-on. be honest about your proficiency, practice slow flight maneuvering before your trip if necessary; stay within your limitations. think. act. remember what Christ knows, we're all sinners - so expect it, work around it, and be forgiving.

PS look out the WINDOWS all the fancy expensive anti-collision gear won't work because the xpdrs are all in STANDBY.

MEdwards
05-07-2012, 11:42 AM
I wonder if you could call the ultralight barn and get permission to use the ultralight runway (~1000' long).I would hope not. The ultralight runway is for ultralights. They have their problems too.

Bill Greenwood
05-07-2012, 12:51 PM
If you are really that worried about flying into Oshkosh, you can go to FLD 18 miles south, leave your plane there, and for about $10 take the bus that runs every hour down to the transportation center at EAA, west of the tower, near the middle of most things.

And as for as antiques, I don't think there is anything against them in the notam, I'd bet on it. There is an arrival just for the no radio planes.

It does make good sense that if you are flying something real slow to perhaps try to do your arrival first thing in the morning or some off peak time.

FlyingRon
05-07-2012, 01:40 PM
Hey, they did put a cub on the cover of the NOTAM!

The NORDO is a lot different than it used to be. After some abuses, they made it so you have to call right before you want to use it to get the procedure.

But hey, I can't fly the FISK arrival as stated. 90 Knots is 3 knots above my gear speed. So I can either fly it at 87 with the gear down, or 90 with the gear up.

(of course I can just keep the gear up and blast in on the Warbird arrival :)

Rick Rademacher
05-07-2012, 02:05 PM
The EAA is using the mass flight of Cubs to AirVenture for the 75th anniversary of the J-3 Cub as a headline event. They are encouraging Cubs to fly in. They are making arrangements for a very large number of Cubs to be at Oshkosh.

The Cub Club volunteered to have Hartford as a staging area for the short flight into Oshkosh. So, most Cubs will stop at Hartford in preparation for the mass flight.

Yet, the EAA will only allow 75 Cubs to participate in a Dawn Patrol flight before 7 A.M. on Sunday. And, they have done little if anything, other than the picture of a Cub on the Notam to highlight to other pilots to be watchful of ten times the number of slow aircraft flying at 70 MPH, not 104 MPH that will then be using the Fisk approach.

I feel like a one man band trying to sound the alert. Although my new HERO2 GoPro will be recording my flight, I will forgive all sinners as long as they don’t hit me, my little friends or any other aircraft.

Mike M
05-07-2012, 08:39 PM
But hey, I can't fly the FISK arrival as stated. 90 Knots is 3 knots above my gear speed. So I can either fly it at 87 with the gear down, or 90 with the gear up. (of course I can just keep the gear up and blast in on the Warbird arrival :)

that's not the first time you've mentioned the gear speed, Ron. are you bragging or complaining? either way, yes, you can fly the FISK arrival as stated. the NOTAM doesn't require gear down. page 4 says "If possible, lower your landing gear prior to reaching Fisk." you write your aircraft limitations make that not possible. so don't. leave it up, the optional part, and fly 90 kts, the required part. big deal. they'll get over it. just remember, for noise abatement, put it down before landing.

Frank Giger
05-08-2012, 01:39 AM
I always fly with a second pilot. I've never understood a desire to fly alone. It gets boring that way.

I find that the lack of horrified screams makes the flight more enjoyable.

I might just fly to OSH in 2013 or 2014, but the fact that my poor little Nieuport makes a Cub look zippy (my cruise will be 55 MPH) may make it far more interesting than I desire. Maybe I can fudge a bit and lie my way onto the UL strip (my plane is just over the ultralight limits).

rawheels
05-08-2012, 08:06 AM
as for as antiques, I don't think there is anything against them in the notam, I'd bet on it.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the Old Rhinebeck, Pioneer airport, Antique Aircraft Assoc, and even evens like the National Biplane Fly-in have grass runways. I'm sure there are some really neat old tail-skid, no-brake, WWI style aircraft that would make an appearance if there was a grass runway option. As I mentioned, it probably isn't practical since the sod would get pretty beat-up (especially when a majority of taildragger pilots learn there is a grass option), but it would be neat to see some of those old planes and provide another approach route for slower planes.


I would hope not. The ultralight runway is for ultralights. They have their problems too.

Yeah, they are slow, handhelds or no radios, generally like grass runways, some without brakes...but despite that maybe the ultralights would allow the Aeroncas & Cubs in anyway! ;)

AndyNZ
05-08-2012, 02:39 PM
Hi all,

I am flying over from New Zealand, and then flying a Tiger Moth in from Cedar Rapids. Never been to the US before, so I think this will be an experience and a half. Luckily the owner will be with me who has been in a tonne of times. Our biggest International Airshow attracts a dozen warbirds and around 100 aircraft in total so this outta blow me away!

Looking forward to it.

PS If anyone is interested, have a look at the Vintage Aviator Website. One of the largest collections of ww1 aircraft anywhere, and they all fly regularly.

FlyingRon
05-09-2012, 08:55 AM
that's not the first time you've mentioned the gear speed, Ron. are you bragging or complaining? either way, yes, you can fly the FISK arrival as stated. the NOTAM doesn't require gear down. page 4 says "If possible, lower your landing gear prior to reaching Fisk."

Yeah, but the Fisk controllers go bonkers if you don't put your gear down...been there, done that. I usually drop them after I make a fuss, from there to 36 isn't that far and usually the guy ahead of me is slowing down by then anyhow.

Joe Delene
05-10-2012, 04:46 AM
Last year I saw a guy or 2 cutting the corner inside of Ripon. Yes I can handle it, but it's nice to be lined up on the inbound course over Ripon, not cutting in from the East 1 mile inside. Maybe I'm asking for to much.

FlyingRon
05-10-2012, 07:35 AM
Last year I caught a guy high and not over the tracks came merging in at me and had the nerve to tell me I flew under him. It's best when you've got an idiot, to keep him in sight ahead of you.

If you ever want to have fun and you have a car (or are willing to hike the couple of miles), go down to Fisk and sit with the controllers. The first year I visited Oshkosh (and we flew into Fond du Lac, I wasn't the pilot), I got to go both out to Fisk and up in the control tower, to see how things looked from the controller's side before I had to fly it for real.

Rick Rademacher
07-04-2012, 05:24 AM
Just a reminder->

I have been told that a slow plane approach has been discussed for years at Oshkosh. I had hoped that the 75th anniversary of the J-3 Piper Cub would spur the EAA/FAA into making it a reality.


As that didn't happen, I can only caution pilots as to the larger numbers of very slow planes, J-3 Cubs that will be using the Fisk approach flying at 70 M.P.H.


Please be extra careful out there this year for many slow movers!

Inspector Fenwick
07-04-2012, 06:56 AM
Just a reminder->

I have been told that a slow plane approach has been discussed for years at Oshkosh. I had hoped that the 75th anniversary of the J-3 Piper Cub would spur the EAA/FAA into making it a reality.


As that didn't happen, I can only caution pilots as to the larger numbers of very slow planes, J-3 Cubs that will be using the Fisk approach flying at 70 M.P.H.


Please be extra careful out there this year for many slow movers!

Avoiding the times of the mass arrivals, whether they be Cubs or RV's is a good plan. Those times are published.

As for the Fisk, what is it with the guys or gals that can't seem to fly in trail over the railroad tracks? I suggest some practice in that very basic skill, you know, like your second or third flying lesson when your instructor had you do that? Nothing frosts my gizzard more than seeing, out of the blue, a plane 200 yards off of either wingtip when I am centered on the tracks. Things fall apart pretty fast after that discovery.

Mike Berg
07-04-2012, 09:55 AM
I've flown in several times either by myself or with one other person. Weather permitting I intend to fly my 'new' 1947 L16 in this year. It's only about a 150 mile flight for me as I live on the other side of the state but flying an old tail dragger you need to be respectful of the cross winds on a hard surface runway. I'd really wish for a nice turf runway about 2500' long but I suppose that would take all the fun out of it.

Trafficwise, I've never had a problem as long as you follow the 'rules' which I understand some don't I've never arrived after the airshow but think I'd avoid that time if possible as there is a lot of departing traffic and once you're out of the 'control area' it seems like everyone for themselves as they turn on heading.

Mike