Plane rentals at $27 while inspiring others to fly

[WingsAloft]

It seems to me that, of those of us who are both unrich and not the happy owners of a plane, that many times we are driving by and not into the local airport more often than we'd want to think about. But I have an idea that I'm confident most of you have thought out yourselves: The Piper Warrior at DAN rents out at $110 an hour. That's alot for any one person to pay. Now, for a 40 min flight, with the cost split between four people, did you know it would only be $18? Soooooo....why not let the public in on this opportunity? Couldn't you print out some homemade flyers saying something like "Hey, I'm a FAA certified pilot offering $15 plane rides! Have you ever seen Anytown from the air before? Now is your chance!" Leave a stack for people to take, at Kroger, Dick's sporting goods, your church, wherever. Maybe your flyer could advertize a dedicated twitter account or something. You could have a picture of yourself beside your favorite rental, and maybe some aerial shots, too. Obviously you can't take the whole town flying, so maybe you could say something like, "Reserve your seat now! Seats fill up fast!" or "Nine seats available this Saturday! Email me to reserve yours" with people emailing (or tweeting, etc.) you to let you know they're coming, on a first come, first serve basis. Well, it's an idea, and if it works out, you will get a major break with rental costs, while disabusing the public of certain notions, maybe even sparking the desire to fly among dozens of people! Or save your airport! What could be better that that?

[Joe LaMantia]

It's a nice idea, but I think you may need a Commercial License to do this even though your not making a profit. I'd run this through a few experts before running an ad, if your able to pull this off let me know. I fly our club Archer for $100/hr, so I could "charge" $25 a seat and increase my flight time by 75%!

Joe
:cool:

[WingsAloft]

I agree about first seeking an expert's opinion. I think in order to make this work, the means of getting the word out would have to be extremely informal. I was thinking along the lines of the same way people advertize their yard sales, homemade print-outs from home computers, flyers taped onto telephone poles, handouts to the church youth group, etc. And I would absolutelty state I AM NOT A COMMERCIAL OPERATOR---I AM A PRIVATE PILOT.

[WingsAloft]

If we can maneuver this into being common knowlege among the community that "there's always some group of pilots at the local airport, who are more than willing to take people for rides for just ten bucks", then people might just show up with junior at the airport instead of wasting money at the cinema.

[martymayes]

As of 2007, the FAA has overhauled the reg requirements to conduct sightseeing flights. See FAR 91.147. Because you are advertising, they are going to apply the FAR Part 110 definition and label your operation "commercial air tour." You'll have to apply for an LOA from the FSDO. Flights will have to be conducted within a 25sm radius, a commercial pilot certificate is required, drug testing is required and you'll need to list the aircraft you plan to use and comply with maintenance requirements. Since you indicated you'll be renting, the operator will have to be okay with this.

If you want to do this as a private pilot and pro-rata sharing of expenses, you'll have to drop the advertising, even the "word of mouth" type. Even then you'll be walking on thin ice if the FAA investigates.

[WingsAloft]

As of 2007, the FAA has overhauled the reg requirements to conduct sightseeing flights. See FAR 91.147. Because you are advertising, they are going to apply the FAR Part 110 definition and label your operation "commercial air tour." You'll have to apply for an LOA from the FSDO. Flights will have to be conducted within a 25sm radius, a commercial pilot certificate is required, drug testing is required and you'll need to list the aircraft you plan to use and comply with maintenance requirements. Since you indicated you'll be renting, the operator will have to be okay with this.

If you want to do this as a private pilot and pro-rata sharing of expenses, you'll have to drop the advertising, even the "word of mouth" type. Even then you'll be walking on thin ice if the FAA investigates.

I just read the regulations, and they don't seem to affect what I'm planning to do. It seems to affect only flights for compensation or hire, and I am not seeking compensation or hire. Neither is this a sight seeing flight. I guess the FAA is more twisted than I thought. I appreciate the warning, though.

[WingsAloft]

. Because you are advertising, they are going to apply the FAR Part 110 definition and label your operation "commercial air tour." .

But what if I tell people up-front and in my flyers that I will not charge anyone anything, that they can pay me out of the goodness of their heart?

[martymayes]

I just read the regulations, and they don't seem to affect what I'm planning to do. It seems to affect only flights for compensation or hire, and I am not seeking compensation or hire.

In your original post your proposed advertising pitch was "I'm a FAA certified pilot offering $15 plane rides!" which is providing a service (plane ride) for a fee ($15). In the aviation world, the exchange of money for the flight is called compensation and operating for hire. The FAA considers advertising (printed flyers) a form of "holding out" which essentially means you are willing to carry the general public in your airplane for a fee. That makes you a commerical operator.



Neither is this a sight seeing flight. I guess the FAA is more twisted than I thought. I appreciate the warning, though.

If the purpose is other than sightseeing, then your operation will fall under a different set of commercial operating rules that are even more stringent. After all, you're still charging to ride in a plane. For example, if you're planning on "holding out" flights for "mile high club" activities, or traveling further than 25sm or landing at an airport different from the point of departure, you'll be required to operate under Part 135 and get a ATCO certificate. Your intent or description is not relevant, if the flying activity fits an FAA definition, that's what it is and how it's classified.

If you want to erase the commercial aspects of the flights you propose, you can not advertise and there must be some kind of previous relationship with your passengers. They can't be strangers that showed up because they heard you give plane rides in exchange for the monetary compensation of $15. So your proposal is a great idea if you tell 3 of your work associates that you are going flying this weekend and they can come along and equally share the expense. That also erases the 25sm geographical boundary and requirement to land at at the same airport you departed from.

I'm not trying to poo-poo on your party but the FAA has handed out 91.147 violations like AOL trial memberships since the rules changed in 2007. If you end up on the receiving end of a violation you'd probably quit flying and aviation has lost another participant.

[martymayes]

But what if I tell people up-front and in my flyers that I will not charge anyone anything, that they can pay me out of the goodness of their heart?
Then you'll be giving away a lot of free plane rides and the FAA will still violate you.

This is from FAR 110. Pay close attention to #8. If they smell a fish, they can fry it -if in their opinion something fishy is going on.



The FAA may consider the following factors in determining whether a flight is a commercial air tour:

(1) Whether there was a holding out to the public of willingness to conduct a sightseeing flight for compensation or hire;
(2) Whether the person offering the flight provided a narrative that referred to areas or points of interest on the surface below the route of the flight;
(3) The area of operation;
(4) How often the person offering the flight conducts such flights;
(5) The route of flight;
(6) The inclusion of sightseeing flights as part of any travel arrangement package;
(7) Whether the flight in question would have been canceled based on poor visibility of the surface below the route of the flight; and (8) Any other factors that the FAA considers appropriate.

[WingsAloft]

Marty Mayes, this has been a fruitful discussion.

[WingsAloft]

martymayes, I didn't know that was the meaning of compensation. I always thought compensation meant you took your handyman flying for painting your house. Why does the FAA have to be so micromanaging? This really, well, it's too bad. Rats! It shouldn't have to be this way!

[martymayes]

Marty Mayes, this has been a fruitful discussion.

Please don't give up. There's more opportunity than you realize to give a ride and pro-rata share expenses. All you need is one person and you cut your rental cost in half!

[martymayes]

martymayes, I didn't know that was the meaning of compensation. I always thought compensation meant you took your handyman flying for painting your house.

For enforcement purposes, the FAA says "compensation" is any type of economic gain. Cash, promissory note, painting your house, pilot flight time for currency or furtherance of certificates and ratings, free lunch, stock tip, etc., may be considered compensation.


Why does the FAA have to be so micromanaging?

I guess they would say they are protecting the public. It's an area where the data indicated there was room for improvement. The ability to set up shop and offer sightseeing flights and make a quick buck with zero oversight attracted some shady operators. There's some landmark cases where things ended in tragedy. I agree, sad it has to be that way.

[Joe LaMantia]

I'm glad I responded to this "kettle of fish". A few years ago my local airport would stage an annual "Air Fare" which was intended to bring the local community out to the airport in order to promote aviation. This included a pancake breakfast, a small air show and some large static display. In addition, the airport mgr would line up 3 or 4 local CFI's to take customers for rides around town, for $35 per person. I used to volunteer by doing ramp duties parking airplanes and loading kids into the aircraft for rides. I had asked the airport mgr if I could rent one of his Skyhawks and participate in providing rides, not expecting to be paid of course. He told me that only commercial rated pilots were allowed to fly, since they were advertising and charging for the rides. Thanks to Marty for providing some "expert" information regarding this topic.

One last thought having read the frustration of "WingsAloft" is to consider the objectives that were stated back when the CAB was established and carried forward to the present FAA. They are suppose to insure safety and promote the advancement of aviation. This was more or less the "prime directive" back in the early 30's when aircraft were not too reliable and there were few operational rules. Fast forward 80 years, we now have a massive airline industry, that has a big voice in wanting to "promote aviation" and the politics of who benefits is a bit clouded. As for Saftey, things are much better then the 1930's, but deregulation has impacted operating standards in a negative way. In my opinion, the FAA needs to focus on Public Saftey in the air and let the airlines deal with "promoting" aviation, they have too big a voice at the table.

Joe
:cool:

[martymayes]

A few years ago my local airport would stage an annual "Air Fare" which was intended to bring the local community out to the airport in order to promote aviation. This included a pancake breakfast, a small air show and some large static display. In addition, the airport mgr would line up 3 or 4 local CFI's to take customers for rides around town, for $35 per person. I used to volunteer by doing ramp duties parking airplanes and loading kids into the aircraft for rides. I had asked the airport mgr if I could rent one of his Skyhawks and participate in providing rides, not expecting to be paid of course. He told me that only commercial rated pilots were allowed to fly, since they were advertising and charging for the rides.

In 1984 I worked for an operator in SW Louisiana that ran a flight school and Part 135 operation. They had signs, flyers and radio spot ads for flight training and "airplane rides". This was a small private airport, however, at least 4-5 times a week we had walk-ins for airplane rides. Take 'em for a 15-20 min ride in a Warrior, let 'em see the few prominent landmarks around town, easy money. I was always getting chastised for making the flights "too long"...LOL. In Dec. of 1989, those type flights fell under mandatory drug testing programs, then in 2007, FAR 91.147 showed up and now an LOA is required. Except for things like EAA's Ford Tri-Motor, traveling warbirds and rides at big airshows that activity has all but disappeared. What a shame, an easy link for the public to go out to the airport and fly for fun, severed.

[Bill Greenwood]

There are fbos and flight schools that sell rides, our here does. But that is a com op with com pilots.

If you can find a few friends that want to fly you can form a club and rent a plane together legally share the cost.

The critical item is to do it safely, never have an accident, just like how carefully we do free Young Eagle flights. Then there is less for the FAA or some plaintiff lawyer to find fault with.

[martymayes]

There are fbos and flight schools that sell rides, our here does. But that is a com op with com pilots.


An FBO or flight school can sell an airplane ride while hiding behind the banner of "introductory training flight" where a CFI takes a prospective student for a ride. The flight is regulated like any other training flight. Your local FSDO can tell you if they have an LOA for sightseeing rides.

[Bill Greenwood]

I don't think the FBO has to "hide behind the banner of into training flights", there is nothing illegal about their school flying rides. If I know the rider , I do advise them to make it their first training lesson, rather than just sit there inert and look out the window.
Our local glider school and fbo does many dozens of rides each year, as well as training flights.

[martymayes]

There's a difference between giving a prospective student an intro ride vs. giving a businessman a ride who wants nothing more than to fly over and view his new store from the air. I know this is hard to believe but if an operator doesn't have an LOA for sightseeing, they may try to legitimize a sightseeing flight by disguising it as an introductory training flight.

[Frank Giger]

Y'all are super-duper pilots!

I can't get anyone to take a ride with me in an airplane, let alone split the gas!

[bwilson4web]

. . . That's alot for any one person to pay. Now, for a 40 min flight, with the cost split between four people, did you know it would only be $18? Soooooo....why not let the public in on this opportunity? . . . You are thinking the right way but before trying this experiment, ride in the back of a Cherokee with someone else. I had a Cherokee 140 and though I have put two people in the back seats, it was not a 'fun flight' for them. Visibility is limited and the noise kinda of isolates them from what is going on. It is like putting four people in VW Beatle . . . it can be done but usually just once by the first set.

Bob Wilson

[Joe LaMantia]

Yes most "4-place" GA aircraft were designed to take Mom and Dad and the 2 kids for a short day-trip. I've done about a half-dozen Young Eagles events, little kids workout OK in the rear seats, but not adults. I've never done the share expense thing and have been offered compensation on several occasions when taken people for rides. I like to take one or two kids out for an hour, if two, land and switch seats so they each get a shot in the right seat, level off and give them a chance to turn or climb the aircraft...you can't put a price on those smiles!

Joe
:cool:

[WingsAloft]

Please don't give up. There's more opportunity than you realize to give a ride and pro-rata share expenses. That's encouraging, but could you give me an example?