Auto Pilot ?

[uncleleon]

I have an SLSA (EuroFox), and I would like to have a two axis autopilot installed without spending more than the airplane is worth. I just want a unit that will hold altitude and hold a heading. Tracking an entire approach is not necessary.

My budget for this, including installation is $38. (;>) .....Well....maybe a little more than that.

Suggestions ???

[steveinindy]

Here's my question....why would you need an autopilot for an LSA? I mean, it's not a "get up and go" sort of aircraft and that sort of plane tends to attract folks who are doing it for the "love of flying", etc. Having an autopilot tends to take away that. Even as someone who dreams of the day of having an aircraft where when I'm at top of climb, I can punch the autopilot on and relax (relatively speaking) until time to descend a couple (or several) hours later, I just don't see the purpose behind one in an LSA. To me it would be like installing training wheels and cruise control on a moped.

[kscessnadriver]

An LSA is just as much of a traveling airplane as a 172 is. I've flown a CTSW with an autopilot and it was great. Very smooth, like on rails. The problem with putting an autopilot in an SLSA is that you are going to have to go back to the manufacture to get it approved. Best bet would be to call the manufacture and see if they have something they already have approved, and if not, perhaps see if they are willing to work with you to get one approved.

[uncleleon]

Here's my question....why would you need an autopilot for an LSA? I mean, it's not a "get up and go" sort of aircraft and that sort of plane tends to attract folks who are doing it for the "love of flying", etc. Having an autopilot tends to take away that. Even as someone who dreams of the day of having an aircraft where when I'm at top of climb, I can punch the autopilot on and relax (relatively speaking) until time to descend a couple (or several) hours later, I just don't see the purpose behind one in an LSA. To me it would be like installing training wheels and cruise control on a moped.

Well, Steve...Lemee tellya... In order to minimize drama in the forum, I'll just try to explain:

I've flown a lotta airplanes in my 50+ years of flying. The Fox is extremely sensitive. That makes it fun to fly when yer jes punchin holes in the sky. But if yer distracted fer jes a few seconds, the plane decides to go all over the sky. Ya see; that makes it harder to keep on course when yer distracted with various things, goin X-country. It would be nice if it stayed on course while I'm looking at maps, checking frequencies of the next airport, etc.

Does that answer yer question?

[uncleleon]

Thanx for your input, Cessna. - Good thought.

[S3flyer]

The three main players in the LSA (Experimental?) field are Trutrak, Trio and Dynon. Dynon makes sense if you have a D100 or Skyview installed already although an entire AP system including a D100 EFIS rivals the cost of a comparable Trutrak system. Trio is probably the lowest cost standalone AP at around $3K for a 2-axis system. YMMV.

[uncleleon]

The three main players in the LSA (Experimental?) field are Trutrak, Trio and Dynon. Dynon makes sense if you have a D100 or Skyview installed already although an entire AP system including a D100 EFIS rivals the cost of a comparable Trutrak system. Trio is probably the lowest cost standalone AP at around $3K for a 2-axis system. YMMV.

Thanx, Flyer...Very helpful

[Joe LaMantia]

For $38 or so, you might be able to get a old used "wing leveler" outa of an old Cessna, but you'll have to install it yourself. The next question is can you actually legally modify a SLSA?

Joe:cool:

[Bob Dingley]

Makes sense to me. At times, I wished for one in a single seat sailplane. A lot of the helos that I flew had various levels of automation. Something like the old Mooney wing leveler would be nice.

I am sure that there is little or no lattitude in upgradeing a SLSA. I did check out the web site for Aerotrek that assembles and markets the US version of your plane and they have an option for the Tru Trak Gemini ADI. They could put it in your panel for a bit more than a grand. I guess that it may be possible to upgrade the Tru Trak to an autopilot. But only if you lived in a third world country far from the FAA.
Bob

[S3flyer]

Eurofox site I saw had a line item entry for a Dynon autopilot so that would strongly imply they would approve it for a field upgrade. The worst part about getting LOAs for an SLSA is typically the time it takes (and some charge an admin fee of a few hundred bucks) not in getting approved. You also have the option of taking your plane ELSA and then can do pretty much whatever you want provide you stay within the LSA standards and FAA regs.

[Bob Dingley]

Pappy Boyington says that he strung rubber bands about his cockpit and stick and was able to catch a few winks. If a Marine says it, you can take to the bank.

[M20F_Flyer]

I posted a comment similar to this POST on the Mooney, Beech, Piper and Cessna List(s) and had some Serious replies...But VERY FEW!!!

I recently had concern that a SERVO on my Bendix/King AP was going bad. I spoke with some of the most reputable Bendix/King AP shops in the USA ( AP Central in Tulsa and others) and began to learn- the very Popular King 100 series KAP 100..KAP 150 KFC 150 and many 200 series USE a servo Motor Built by a company in PA. That Honeywell who now owns B/K.. BUT does not support the repair of the 100 and 200 series AP's Servo Motors

The Honeywell rep indicated that his guess was that approx Ten Thousand * King AP's * of the 100 and 200 series are still in use.
Most systems use THREE servo's ...so you can see where I am going with this...

Approx 30,000 little motors or perhaps 30K airplanes should purchase a NEW DIGITAL AP :) if this little servo critter goes SOUTH.

MY QUESTION::: HAS ANYONE REPAIRED a King SERVO MOTOR RECENTLY, WHERE AND HOW MUCH WAS THE REPAIR COST????

Please PM me at my Yahoo addy...plyons820@yahoo.com

[steveinindy]

An LSA is just as much of a traveling airplane as a 172 is.

Eh....I guess to each and to their own. From a speed standpoint, you're right. From a load standpoint or a just plain utility standpoint, not so much. An LSA is a fine "severe clear" traveling airplane but if there's any risk of less than perfect weather I wouldn't use it for long distance flying. Unlike a LSA, a 172 isn't grounded by less than ideal weather (assuming the pilot is competent and instrument rated).


But if yer distracted fer jes a few seconds, the plane decides to go all over the sky.

Unless it was designed to be aerobatic, it sounds like it wasn't designed very well then. If it's designed to be just a point A to point B aircraft, you would think that inherent stability would be a must have feature.


Ya see; that makes it harder to keep on course when yer distracted with various things, goin X-country. It would be nice if it stayed on course while I'm looking at maps, checking frequencies of the next airport, etc.

Does that answer yer question?

That it does. Of course, I try to avoid flying without a copilot whenever I can so that I have a spare set of hands around should I need them (not to mention that it's a source of companionship and I have yet to be able to train my parrot to handle ATC communications)

[rwanttaja]

But if yer distracted fer jes a few seconds, the plane decides to go all over the sky. Unless it was designed to be aerobatic, it sounds like it wasn't designed very well then. If it's designed to be just a point A to point B aircraft, you would think that inherent stability would be a must have feature.

Plus the fact that autopilots aren't magic. If a plane is very sensitive to the controls, then you're going to have a hard time getting the autopilot "dialed in". It's going to overcontrol just like a new pilot will, and an autopilot doesn't "learn." You'll need to do some serious adjustments to get the gearing right.

Back when I was a young 'un, I built a cruise control for my car. The car had a manual transmission, so all I really needed to do was have something hold the engine RPM no matter the load conditions. Taught me a few things about control rates, hysteresis, etc...

Ron Wanttaja

[steveinindy]

If a plane is very sensitive to the controls, then you're going to have a hard time getting the autopilot "dialed in". It's going to overcontrol just like a new pilot will, and an autopilot doesn't "learn." You'll need to do some serious adjustments to get the gearing right.

I never even thought about that. It does make a lot of sense. I certainly would not want to be the one at the controls during the autopilot test flights in an inherently unstable aircraft. That just sounds like a recipe for a rather terrifying ride.


Back when I was a young 'un, I built a cruise control for my car. The car had a manual transmission, so all I really needed to do was have something hold the engine RPM no matter the load conditions. Taught me a few things about control rates, hysteresis, etc...

You're a man of many talents Ron. For stuff like that, I'd just go with off the shelf technology.

[rwanttaja]

You're a man of many talents Ron. For stuff like that, I'd just go with off the shelf technology.
Well, this was nearly 40 years ago; the shelf barely existed. :-)

I was newly-graduated as an Electrical Engineer and brand-new second lieutenant. The former made me THINK I could do it, and the latter ensured both that I was too poor to buy commercial units and also immortal (useful for the test phase).

Early on, I encountered a stuck throttle condition and Lesson Number One was learned: Put LOTS of fail-safes into critical hardware. Eventually, I could disengage cruise by (1) Tapping the brake, (2) Pressing on the clutch, (3) Slapping the control pad (on the center console...hitting it jerked a relay open), and (4) Tearing the control pad away (and, presumably, out the window) - The control pad plugged into the main controller with a power loop across the connector, and pulling it unplugged the connector and powered-down the entire system.

Never had to go higher than #1 again. Good lesson for the autopilot experimenters; Imagine what your worst-case failures would be, and work out what you'll do if they all happen right after another. Are you *sure* you can overpower the servo if it runs away? What happens if it jams the trim wheel at the same time? If you kill power, does it snap loose so quickly that you'll do an outside loop with the forward pressure you have to hold against the stuck servo?

Ron Wanttaja

[steveinindy]

I was newly-graduated as an Electrical Engineer

I'm going to remember that for when I get to the part of my design that involves wiring. I'll probably need to pick your brain.


the latter ensured both that I was too poor to buy commercial units and also immortal

What are the most dangerous words to come out of the mouth of any officer below the rank of captain: "Follow my lead". ;)


Early on, I encountered a stuck throttle condition and Lesson Number One was learned: Put LOTS of fail-safes into critical hardware.

I learned that from reading about the mistakes other people made because I realized I wouldn't live very long if I tried to make them all myself. LOL


Never had to go higher than #1 again. Good lesson for the autopilot experimenters; Imagine what your worst-case failures would be, and work out what you'll do if they all happen right after another. Are you *sure* you can overpower the servo if it runs away? What happens if it jams the trim wheel at the same time? If you kill power, does it snap loose so quickly that you'll do an outside loop with the forward pressure you have to hold against the stuck servo?

....and people on here complain that my focus on crash survivability is fatalistic. My hat is off to you Ron.

Oh, but I will add "and can your aircraft handle the forces involved in such a rapid reversal?"

[S3flyer]

An LSA is a fine "severe clear" traveling airplane but if there's any risk of less than perfect weather I wouldn't use it for long distance flying.
An LSA doesn't require "severe clear" anymore than 172 being piloted by a non-instrument rated pilot.


Unlike a LSA, a 172 isn't grounded by less than ideal weather (assuming the pilot is competent and instrument rated).
I think you're over generalizing -- ideal weather grounds an LSA vs. 172? Don't think so. Now there may be marginal VFR conditions that no VFR pilot really should fly in but the weather doesn't need to be ideal and that is also not dependency on the aircraft.

If you were trying to state that an SLSA cannot be flown in IMC, regardless of pilot rating, then you're correct (although it is expected that ASTM will publish IMC standards in the future). But this statement would not apply to an ELSA provided the ELSA is properly equipped as per the FARs.

[uncleleon]

THIS WILL PROBABLY PUT AN END TO THIS THREAD
At least it's the end of my concern

I just rec'd word from the importer that no AP has been approved for the Eurofox, and none would be.

It's disappointing. I have a friend with an Apollo Fox that has an autopilot. That airplane is almost exactly the same as mine, except: - It has a larger (higher) vert. Stab.

[Frank Giger]

That's the problem with SLSA - it's not truly an Experimental.

@ Steve - high performance LSA's with autopilots make sense. The owner of the CTLS I trained in does serious cross country work in it and with the very long legs it has the autopilot is a godsend for him.

[rwanttaja]

I just rec'd word from the importer that no AP has been approved for the Eurofox, and none would be.
As others have mentioned, you can easily get around this by transferring it to the Experimental Light Sport category. The issue, of course, is whether there's a loss in resale value. If you intend to keep the airplane for a while, this really shouldn't matter.

Ron Wanttaja