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Steve Stephenson
07-27-2011, 12:48 PM
Hey Guys, I am a longtime EAA member and am building a scratch built biplane at home.
I remember long ago when the Sport Aviation magazine was all about homebuilt airplanes.
Now it seems that the magazine has changed directions. It does not seem to be centered around
homebuilt airplanes anymore. I see more certified aircraft and adds than anything.
I will probably renew my membership this month, but if this trend continues I may not next year.

I wish we could do something to get the organization back on track. I was thinking about emailing all the EAA Chapter Presidents and ask them to bring this topic up at their meetings to get an idea of what everyone else thinks. I am working twelve hour shifts and trying to make progress on my plane, so I don't have much free time to devote to the issue.

What do you guys think?

Steve Stephenson

jhausch
07-27-2011, 03:06 PM
I think the latest version of the magazine is top notch and a great balance of all sorts of articles. EAA is also doing a great job of balancing out all the content with the website and hints for homebuilders videos. I tried "Light Sport" for a while and then went back to the main magazine. Shortly thereafter they did the re-design and the content and quality has been top notch.

I do think their email newsletter is sort of long winded, but I still can't seem to stop myself before reading the whole thing :)

One of the email newsletters (maybe the main one) has been featuring old articles from "Experimenter". have you seen those? That seems like it would be right up your alley.

Offered respectfully: Scratch building is an important part of EAA, but not the only part

Chad Jensen
07-27-2011, 03:12 PM
You have to remember that there a lot (a LOT) of EAA members that are not building airplanes and really are quite happy flying their certified airplane. Take a look at the North 40 during the show...The magazine is wonderful in my opinion and I think it's a great balance as well to meet the needs of all members.

sdilullo
07-28-2011, 08:12 AM
I'm in no way a builder, however I have to say I think the magazine's redesign last year resulted in a SUPERB publication. Sport Aviation is now by far my favorite aviation magazine.

Chad's comments hit the nail on the head - EAA has a lot of members and I think the organization does a great job producing a magazine that appeals to everyone.

Don't forget you can get homebuilder-specific information thru EAA's weekly newsletter:
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/

Nels_Anderson
07-28-2011, 12:12 PM
The EAA long ago outgrew just being an organization for homebuilders. In my local chapter there is not even one pilot who is now or ever has homebuilt a plane so if the magazine was just about homebulding most of us would get nothing out of it. I'm sure it's tough for them to maintain a balance to satisfy everyone but they are doing a reasonable job of it.

KDoersom
07-28-2011, 12:48 PM
Sport Aviation is my favorite aviation pub. And what is really great is all the issues are online for reference. No hugh piles stacking up around the house.

Eric Witherspoon
07-28-2011, 11:00 PM
I agree with KDoersom - if there's anything you feel like you are missing out on, search the Sport Aviation archives. I hope they're working on making the other titles available. They also are creating a LOT of to-the-point you-can-use-it homebuilding how-to advice in VIDEO on the web. So there still is a lot out there that they deliver for the active builder, but in the big scheme of things, unless you're a repeat offender (in which case, you have your sources for advice or choose projects which use similar skills like only building with riveted metal...), you are only a builder for a relatively short while - most of "the aviation hobby" will consist of figuring out what you want to build or buy and doing things with it once you have something flying... Besides, another great benefit of the internet is the huge number of builder websites - why do you need a centralized organization publishing articles on paper monthly when you can spend a few hours and see how dozens of other people have already done the EXACT thing you are contemplating... Uh, and not to throw you right off these forums, but there's a special place for the scratch built biplane fan - http://www.biplaneforum.com

Neil
08-01-2011, 10:40 PM
Steve, I'm kind of old school and don't really care for the current magazine format either, but change is one of those things that comes with growth. The magazine is still a good read, just not the same as 30 years ago. Back then, if you had a building question you wrote a letter, put a stamp on it and if you were lucky the response would show up in the magazine in about 3 months. I don't want to go back to that either.

Admittedly, I have said that Sport Aviation looks more like Flying Magazine than a builders magazine but at some point, we do fly these things. As builders we need for the work EAA is doing in Washington to continue giving us a voice there. Without that I believe the bureaucrats would try to do away with any type of private pilot activity. The number of non builders that have found their way into EAA, and there are a lot of them, help fund those efforts. We couldn't do it without them.

Since you are building a Biplane you have resources at your disposal to get near instant response to any question you may have regardless of type at <Biplaneforum.com> and other sites that are biplane type specific. Hope to see you there.

Dave Stadt
08-02-2011, 08:06 AM
You will find that homebuilders are a very small percentage of chapter members. Those that are get the support they need from the internet in the form of builders forums and directly from kit manufacturer support. The number of scratch builders is extremely small and could not support a publication like Sport Av.

Neil
08-02-2011, 05:21 PM
You will find that homebuilders are a very small percentage of chapter members. Those that are get the support they need from the internet in the form of builders forums and directly from kit manufacturer support. The number of scratch builders is extremely small and could not support a publication like Sport Av.

I don't agree. There are still a large number of scratch builders. There are over 2,000 members on "The Biplane Forum" alone. I have no idea how many others are out there but I'm sure this is a small percentage. Then add in the kit builders. That makes for a lot of Experimental Aircraft. There is enough to easily support a magazine, but EAA reaches much farther than just Homebuilding.

Steve Stephenson
08-02-2011, 08:59 PM
Thanks Neil, you make a lot of sense. I think they are doing a great job with the magazine, the photography is fantastic!
I really like FiFi on the latest cover. As a scratch builder I know how much heart and soul and ton of gumption it takes to really "build" a airplane. We put years of time and effort into our projects. I think a lot of builders deserve more than a tiny picture with a one paragraph write up. We do need the political force that the EAA has. I have a Sport Aviation collection that starts from the first issue. I like to randomly pull a oldie out every now and then. I also have some EAA aircraft design books published in Hales Corner Wis. They are great. The online videos that the EAA has are good.
I'm having a easier time accepting the change now. Thanks for the input from all of you.

Mike M
08-03-2011, 05:18 AM
Steve, I agree, SA isn't what I'm interested in any more. I quit taking FLYING magazine in the mid-70's because I got bored reading about aircraft and avionics I couldn't afford. Lately SA has been FLYING with a different title. I expect that to accelerate under the ex-FLYING honcho running it now. If they'd make SA a "delete option" and let me buy a few more gallons of avgas with the savings, I'd dump it in a heartbeat in favor of the website offerings.

Chad Jensen
08-03-2011, 07:30 AM
Lately SA has been FLYING with a different title.
Really??? I don't see this at all. I, too, dropped Flying years ago because of all the expensive avionics and jet articles, but SA has SO much more to offer, and doesn't deserve the flak it's taking. Sure there are articles about 182's and such, but there are also GREAT articles on how-to's, and maintenance, and technical engine articles, as well as the tried and true "What our members are building" section-*which I do agree can be expanded*. I think they are doing a great job of spreading the interests of the membership over the scope of the magazine.

Flying with a different title??? Nah, it's different magazine with a BETTER title. ;)

Mike M
08-03-2011, 03:07 PM
i think we have now entered the tweetch zone. to each, his own. no sweat. your mileage may vary.

Fareed Guyot
08-03-2011, 03:28 PM
Steve, I agree, SA isn't what I'm interested in any more. I quit taking FLYING magazine in the mid-70's because I got bored reading about aircraft and avionics I couldn't afford. Lately SA has been FLYING with a different title. I expect that to accelerate under the ex-FLYING honcho running it now.

Who is the ex-FLYING honcho you are referring to? EAA did hire two columnists that used to write for FLYING but the Editor of Sport Aviation has not changed.

Mike McMains
08-03-2011, 06:40 PM
Love it or hate it, the latest issue (Aug.) of Sport Aviation pretty much slammed the door on the homebuilding segment of EAA. The EAA was built as a low cost & creative alternative to laying out large sums of cash for something ready-built. EAA still has something for all of us, but much as it is owed, experimental homebuilt is not where the money is. Those of you who love the glossy picture book SA now is, probably just never experienced the passion with which early members devoured each issue of the member-produced magazine. If, like me, you no longer care to receive Sport Aviation, join (or renew) Vintage or IAC divisions with basic EAA membership & save $20 to $30 dollars. I hate that it has come to this, but that's the reality of it.

CarlOrton
08-03-2011, 08:39 PM
Love it or hate it, the latest issue (Aug.) of Sport Aviation pretty much slammed the door on the homebuilding segment of EAA. The EAA was built as a low cost & creative alternative to laying out large sums of cash for something ready-built. EAA still has something for all of us, but much as it is owed, experimental homebuilt is not where the money is.

Not really relevant to the magazine context, but to echo Mike's comment above, I found it interesting that the majority (OK, quite a few) of the homebuilt awards went to Lancairs with turbines in them. That's a whole different animal than the types that were front and center in the earlier days of EAA.

Adam Smith
08-03-2011, 09:43 PM
As far as I can see 2 of 32 awards were given to turbine Lancairs, and neither of them were the top ranking awards: http://www.airventure.org/news/2011/110731_awards.html

CarlOrton
08-04-2011, 08:16 AM
Hi, Adam;

Well, I'll gladly concede, since I don't have data to back up anything I say. I was present in the Homebuilder's Hangar when the awards were presented (with photos of the winners), and I could've sworn that I saw more PT-6 style exhaust stacks than just two. Of course, I have no idea as to the various Lancair models, so from the text description in the awards listing, I'm at a loss.

I'll just stand down for now. ;-)

Mike M
08-04-2011, 10:11 AM
Who is the ex-FLYING honcho you are referring to? EAA did hire two columnists that used to write for FLYING but the Editor of Sport Aviation has not changed.

I stand corrected, with apologies to Mary Jones. I misunderstood the PR release:

http://www.eaa.org/media/pr/2010/2010-09-20_mcclellan.asp

There is a big difference between "Publications Director and Editor" and "Editor-at-Large". From the look of recent SA issues and the patter on the boards (http://www.oshkosh365.org/ok365_DiscussionBoardTopic.aspx?id=1235&boardid=147&forumid=175&topicid=5475) there is a lot of perceived FLYING-ification. "Mc Clellan said his focus will be "conventional" airplanes (factory built). He mentioned specifically how the Cessna Citation and the Gulfstream 650 have new features to write about." Last I looked, those aren't homebuilts, vintage, or warbirds. Oh, wait a minute, the Navy has flown some T47's!

Kyle Boatright
08-04-2011, 03:43 PM
I've been disappointed with SA in recent months. An article on used certified twins? An article on C-182's? Columns that could have been lifted straight from the pages of Flying or AOPA? Not what I expect from Sport Aviation and redundant with what you find in those other publications.

Show me something interesting. Chapter activities. Interesting projects. Antiques, Warbirds, Experimentals. Seriously, the magazine's representation of all three of those core groups has declined significantly over the years. That's why I read the magazine, not to read about an aircraft I can find on every airport ramp in the country.

Aaron Novak
08-04-2011, 04:23 PM
I see the lack of homebuilt information a 2-fold problem. The writers of SA are not actively seeking information to print, and people do not contribute. The people out there in the homebuilt world that have the knowledge and skill apparently do not feel the need to help the next generation. Every year the BEC at AV struggles to get instructors to teach basic skills of homebuilt fabrication. Every year I will have some fellow come up and tell me that he has welded up a dozen fuselages or something like that, I ask him if he wants to teach the skills then and he gives me a funny look as if to say " why would I wast my time teaching others?". I think its a fairly selfish attitude. So write an article for SA and submit it!! If you have something to share, share it! Its hard for SA to print articles that are never written. Some people think that once something is written about in 1968 it doesnt have to be re-hashed later, I dont believe that. Some materials change, some dont. Sometimes we learn lessons since the last article was written and that information needs to be passed out to the homebuilding community. Its on our shoulders to keep the technical and homebuilding information in SA.

martymayes
08-04-2011, 08:42 PM
The hardcore fabricating, building and restoring articles still exist in SA, unfortunately, it's down to about 5 pages. The rest of the magazine content is "how to fly articles" like how to fly at night, how to program a GPS, how to make a forced landing, how to avoid midairs, how to fly without a checklist, etc. Then there are a couple of what appears to be Flying magazine reprint articles, at least one "romance" article, i.e. "There I was floating amongst the white puffy clouds in my Tomahawk," and advertisements. A while back I answered a questionaire about what kind of content I wanted to see in SA. I figured based on the changes, not many folks want the hardcore stuff anymore. Or maybe they didn't respond to the questionaire.

At any rate, until something better comes along, I'll read the 5 pages that interest me then throw the magazine in the trash.

sdilullo
08-05-2011, 12:28 PM
For what it's worth, while I am a fan of the overall Sport Aviation re-design and content, I think adding Mac McClellan was a terrible move. I agree 100% with everyone who says his articles don't belong in an EAA publication. We don't need to be reading about bizjets and fancy pressurized twins in Sport Aviation.

steveinindy
08-05-2011, 01:13 PM
The writers of SA are not actively seeking information to print, and people do not contribute.

I'll bite. Who do I speak to about contributing? They don't even have to pay me (although if they comp me my EAA membership I wouldn't complain).


Some people think that once something is written about in 1968 it doesnt have to be re-hashed later, I dont believe that. Some materials change, some dont. Sometimes we learn lessons since the last article was written and that information needs to be passed out to the homebuilding community. Its on our shoulders to keep the technical and homebuilding information in SA.

The problem isn't so much that things have changed with the technology of (as an example) the fabric-covered bug smashers, but that there is a perceived attitude among a fairly decent sized swath of the rank and file members of the EAA that anything that isn't built using traditional means (wood, fabric or aluminum) or non-turbine powerplants isn't living up to the "true spirit of what experimental aviation is all about!". That is in quotes because it came from a rant I watched a member of a local EAA chapter go off on when there was a mention of the fact that I'm designing something with a turboprop and a fuselage of carbon fiber and Kevlar. The fit continued with a tirade about why didn't I just use a modified engine out of a car or focus on something other than this "new fangled obsession with plastic planes" (his words).

In some circles, you mention that you are building something that can't run on mogas, you better start running lest the members of the local chapter come after you with pitchforks and torches. In my admittedly limited experience, it seems to be that the folks who are most resistant to the idea of anything other than the "classics" are the elder members of the EAA. A lot of these folks are thrilled to hear that I do, as a point of fact, want to learn wood frame construction and how to put on a fabric covering. One of my dream planes is a Piper Cub so it's not all about going fast for me. The other side of the coin is that the moment some hear about my design (usually through one of my friends introducing me and pointing it out) they immediately want to clam up, not teach and will not answer questions.

Articles about building are fine, wonderful and have their deserved place in SA and other EAA publications, but at the same time if we simply serve those interests then we are missing the bigger role that our organization plays. Education first, education foremost from the first line on a new design to the last entry in a retiring pilot's logbook, we must continue to learn and to teach. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending upon which side of the camp you stand on) the flying side of education these days involves a lot of avionics, regulation, psychology and other factors that might not seem to initially fit. How dare we bemoan the safety record that has led the FAA and NTSB to scrutinize us and at the same time complain about efforts to improve the operations of EAB aircraft.

What seems to be missing is that the realization that while there is a significant and important "vintage" component to the EAA's mission, we oft forget that first word in the group's name: Experimental. It's more than a moniker, it's more than just our certification class and it is most certainly more than simply a throwback to the days when Mr. Poberezny (my apologies to the family if I misspelled that) and his fellow brand of trailblazers were working out their landmark designs. Our place, our rightful goal in the aviation community is as standard bearers for the advancement of all aviation. Never forget where we come from, never stop looking for somewhere new to go (literally and figuratively) and support each other in whatever we endeavor to do.

Sorry for going a little overboard....this is just something I feel very passionate about.

Steve

Petrinko
08-05-2011, 10:07 PM
Steve / Neil: I fully agree. I grew up with a aircraft in my living room as it took shape it eventually went into the basement. I watched both of my parents read SA cover to cover scowering the magazine for this building tip or that. Having worked in aviation field for over 30 years (military), I know I will never put a PT6 turbine on my aircraft, never fix my Thorp T18 with kevlar or install a EFIS in my aircraft. About 20 years ago I stepped away from EAA, continued to build my aircraft because SA use to stand for homebuilt aircraft, classic, warbirds, grass roots, etc. Sadly the focus shifted to corporate, and for most of us aircraft and technology that many can not afford.

I came to the realization that, I find more support for my aircraft via aircraft forums, and the internet. I suspect that your scratch built aircraft would fall into this catagory as well.

Great post.

steveinindy
08-05-2011, 10:12 PM
I suspect that your scratch built aircraft would fall into this catagory as well.


I have found a nice mix between forums, the various magazines out there and the technical journals (since a lot of what I am trying to do is practical application of things that have been previously described but not really applied to general aviation). I don't disregard or shy away from any potential source of information. My approach is simply "trust but verify". I cannot afford to do any less.

Neil
08-05-2011, 11:24 PM
Steve, as someone who has built a good portion of several Carbon Fiber/Turbine Powered aircraft, my hat is off to you. They are a tremendous amount of work and are in the true spirit of homebuilding. I am however glad to be back to work on my tube and rag biplane.

We have to remember that the old Sport Aviation was written by builders for builders. Not so much any more.

steveinindy
08-06-2011, 12:12 PM
We have to remember that the old Sport Aviation was written by builders for builders. Not so much any more.

Well, let's get back to that then. I'm a believer that if you're not willing to fix a problem you have zero room to grouse about it publicly.

Aaron Novak
08-08-2011, 09:58 AM
I think art of why the technical homebuilt information gets "stale" is that its always written for the beginner. Thats fine but at some point there needs to be some advanced material added as well. I will take welding as an example as its something I am familiar with on aviation materials. Over the last 10 years there has been a number of beginner type articles, and a few articles that are just BS from the welding machine companies. If a person were just to read those articles they would not get 1% of what they needed to know, and would be swayed by marketing more than anything. So I can see something like this, a series of articles on designing and fabricating tubing weldments, not too wordy, but filled with sound engineering and background. No articles written to sell welding machines, or filler material. Just sound basic welding engineering translated from industry to homebuilding. Start with a 101, then do an advanced article answering the "why" questions. Heck Id skip for joy to write that! Someone can do the same for composites, metalworking, woodworking, wiring and such. Just keep out the politics, the corporate funding and get back to real engineering.

steveinindy
08-08-2011, 12:09 PM
Heck Id skip for joy to write that! Someone can do the same for composites, metalworking, woodworking, wiring and such. Just keep out the politics, the corporate funding and get back to real engineering.

Then let's do it.

martymayes
08-09-2011, 06:53 AM
Well, let's get back to that then.

I agree with what Aaron said, the editors of SA intentionally got away from that. Is it possible that their vision for the magazine doesn't align with yours?

Aaron Novak
08-09-2011, 07:13 AM
Maybe its the whole direction EAA wants to take, not just SA? So a dumb question, if another organization formed that was what EAA used to be, how many would "jump ship"? Not saying it would happen, or already hasnt to some extent. I would just hate to see the organization lose sight of the core group that got them where they are.

steveinindy
08-09-2011, 07:37 AM
I agree with what Aaron said, the editors of SA intentionally got away from that. Is it possible that their vision for the magazine doesn't align with yours?

Well, then you write the information and put it out there publicly through alternative means. Either what matters is the educational aspect or exercising some sort of control beyond that...personally I think the former is the more important here.

Greg S
08-09-2011, 09:01 AM
Previous posts are pretty much right - Sport Aviation is becoming Flying Magazine. I'm tired of reading about $150,000 "homebuilts". EAA has gone to chasing the dollar, thats why the big influx of non-aviation corporate types at HQ. I think Paul P. saw this change after he stepped down. Tom got wrapped up in the "business" end of EAA, while Paul realized why it came to being in the first place - people who couldn't afford factory planes and took to homebuilding as a result. Airventure now has a county fair feel. It's all about people through the gates. If this is the change EAA is looking for, I think people will vote with their feet. Quite frankly, I enjoyed Oshkosh a lot more years ago when the crowds were smaller, Camp Schoeller wasn't a zoo, "metros" prevailed. It was a different atmosphere. Unfortunately, not all change is for the good.

martymayes
08-09-2011, 09:01 AM
Maybe its the whole direction EAA wants to take, not just SA? So a dumb question, if another organization formed that was what EAA used to be, how many would "jump ship"?

I'll hold out for an long time and would have to grow really frustrated before I "jump ship" because EAA is more than a monthly magazine. I'm just a little surprised that "how to fly articles" dominate "Sport Aviaition" now, at least six entries per month under the "Better Pilot" heading. Seriously, do those articles appeal to reader majority?

martymayes
08-09-2011, 09:23 AM
- Sport Aviation is becoming Flying Magazine.
Ya, just look at the masthead.

steveinindy
08-09-2011, 12:14 PM
I'm tired of reading about $150,000 "homebuilts".

LOL *pushes design he is working on out of line of sight before speaking* At least I'm taking the time to design my own. ;)


I'm just a little surprised that "how to fly articles" dominate "Sport Aviaition" now, at least six entries per month under the "Better Pilot" heading. Seriously, do those articles appeal to reader majority?

One would assume so. We are pilots after all and there are more non-builders in the EAA than the builders. Given the number of us dying every year in crashes, no effort to educate folks how not to wind up another smoking hole should be viewed as a bad idea. I do agree that there is a definite money-making mindset in a lot of the things that the EAA is doing but then again that money helps fund the things that are making what I want to do as a designer, builder and pilot possible. My view might be different if I were content with a Pietenpol or something of that ilk, but it is what it is.

Hangar10
08-09-2011, 12:42 PM
I agree that Sport Aviation is a top notch publication. Like many others, I receive several publications every month... I look forward to Sport Aviation the most.

PaulDow
08-09-2011, 12:59 PM
...if another organization formed that was what EAA used to be, how many would "jump ship"?...Paul tried that a few years ago with the Sport Aviation Association. It was a side organization that was supposed to be like the early days of EAA. They organized a couple of fly-ins, but it never gained critical mass. Personally, I didn't hear about it until it was too late. The Wayback Machine (http://web.archive.org/web/20020326123040/http://sportaviation.org/) has several versions of their web site.

This may need to be migrated over to the Homebuilders section here instead of on a discussion on the magazine, but did anyone else to go to the Homebuilder's dinner this year? Paul commented that he would like to see homebuilders get organized like the Vintage and Warbirds groups are. He commented that homebuilders don't have their own magazine like the others.

My opinion is that the building process often isn't a very social process. That makes it difficult to develop a culture that promotes group activities.

Aaron Novak
08-09-2011, 02:09 PM
Paul,
You gave me an idea.....one of those that puts a smile on ones face a mile wide....Ill post it in the homebuilt section.

steveinindy
08-09-2011, 02:10 PM
Paul commented that he would like to see homebuilders get organized like the Vintage and Warbirds groups are. He commented that homebuilders don't have their own magazine like the others.

I'm game if anyone else is. I love a good challenge. Who do we talk to about doing something about this?


My opinion is that the building process often isn't a very social process. That makes it difficult to develop a culture that promotes group activities.

Agreed, although if anyone wants to come over and look at my design, lend a hand, etc once I get started building please let me know. I am actually going to host parties where folks get to crawl over the design with a fine toothed comb, magnifying glass, etc and try to find things that are potential issues. I figure the more eyes I get on it before the outer skin panels go on, the better. Food and non-alcoholic beverages will be provided.

Fareed Guyot
08-09-2011, 03:01 PM
I agree homebuilders should get organized and work together more as a group. Whether having your own magazine helps or not is hard to say. But, EAA does have a publication, Experimenter (http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/issues/default.asp) that is dedicated to homebuilding with in-depth, detailed articles, including nitty-gritty stuff that many posters have lamented is missing from EAA. This information never left, it just migrated to our online publication. I can speak for its Editor Pat Panzera (ppanzera@eaa.org) who asks every month for people to submit articles that will continue the spirit of EAA which in part is sharing information.

martymayes
08-09-2011, 05:44 PM
One would assume so. We are pilots after all and there are more non-builders in the EAA than the builders. Given the number of us dying every year in crashes, no effort to educate folks how not to wind up another smoking hole should be viewed as a bad idea.

I get some hot rodding magazines. Lots of features on cool restorations, custom builds and such. Lots of techno articles, metal shaping, welding, painting, engine building, etc. No "how to drive a car" articles or even on how to improve your driving.....

I'm sure EAA knows it's readers because they do the surveys, however, I'd like to see a current poll on how many readers really want the Flying magazine stuff in SA.

martymayes
08-09-2011, 05:50 PM
I agree homebuilders should get organized and work together more as a group. Whether having your own magazine helps or not is hard to say. But, EAA does have a publication, Experimenter (http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/issues/default.asp) that is dedicated to homebuilding with in-depth, detailed articles, including nitty-gritty stuff that many posters have lamented is missing from EAA.

I read and enjoy Experimenter. If they included the 5-6 pages out of SA that I like, I'd vote to replace SA with Experimenter.

steveinindy
08-09-2011, 06:57 PM
I don't see what the gripe with Flying is, but then again my tastes seem to be a little different than your own.

Janet Davidson
08-09-2011, 08:17 PM
has gone to chasing the dollar, thats why the big influx of non-aviation corporate types at HQ

Greg,

I'm sitting here scratching my head & wondering to whom you are referring here :confused: Of the president & 6 VPs at EAA, 5 of them are pilots; 3 of those own, between them, at least 4 aircraft, & 1 is working on building an aircraft.

Bob Meder
08-09-2011, 09:47 PM
I'm a proud member of EAA. I have no plans of ever building my own airplane; I have neither the time nor talent to do so. It is my opinion that EAA, along with the other groups in aviation should not only focus on designing and building aircraft, but also to foster aviation education among pilots. Not only those that already know how to fly, but future pilots, no matter what age.

There is room in the organization for all. Some folks won't like what I have to say, but I like the magazine. If Sport Aviation serves the broad spectrum of the membership, it is serving it's purpose. Specialized publications, like Experimenter, fill the role for those that are interested in that aspect of aviation.

The biggest failing that we, as pilots, have is that we become clannish. We must learn to be inclusive, otherwise we will lose what we have.

Dave Stadt
08-09-2011, 09:58 PM
Greg,

I'm sitting here scratching my head & wondering to whom you are referring here :confused: Of the president & 6 VPs at EAA, 5 of them are pilots; 3 of those own, between them, at least 4 aircraft, & 1 is working on building an aircraft.

The president own two outright and part of a third.

Fareed Guyot
08-10-2011, 01:26 AM
Specialized publications, like Experimenter, fill the role for those that are interested in that aspect of aviation.

The biggest failing that we, as pilots, have is that we become clannish. We must learn to be inclusive, otherwise we will lose what we have.

Well said Bob. EAA needs SA to have broad appeal and for the organization as a whole to have broad appeal. If Frito-Lay only made Fritos, it would be Rockford, Illinois' Mrs. Fishers: Great potato chips but regional distribution. EAA is not out to make money...its out to grow aviation....which is pretty broad. If we stay clannish no one will join our club and will continue to wonder why no one new comes to chapter meetings anymore.

Dana
08-10-2011, 05:39 AM
...It is my opinion that EAA, along with the other groups in aviation should not only focus on designing and building aircraft, but also to foster aviation education among pilots. Not only those that already know how to fly, but future pilots, no matter what age...

The problem is that all those $100K plus airplanes don't do much to "foster aviation" since few can afford them.

Greg S
08-10-2011, 07:48 AM
I agree homebuilders should get organized and work together more as a group. Whether having your own magazine helps or not is hard to say. But, EAA does have a publication, Experimenter (http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/issues/default.asp) that is dedicated to homebuilding with in-depth, detailed articles, including nitty-gritty stuff that many posters have lamented is missing from EAA. This information never left, it just migrated to our online publication. I can speak for its Editor Pat Panzera (ppanzera@eaa.org) who asks every month for people to submit articles that will continue the spirit of EAA which in part is sharing information.

They DID get organized - A gentleman started the EAA. They DID have a magazine, it was called Sport Aviation. But in chasing the dollar, the "new" EAA has forgotten it's roots. Don't get me wrong, the EAA does a lot of good things, it's jusy my personal observation that in its desire to continue to GROW Airventure, they have created a monster - constantly needing more and more money. I'm of the belief that maybe instead of focusing on growth so much, they should focus on improving and refining what they already have. Pretty hard getting someone interested in flying when you keep throwing 6 and 7 figure planes in their face. No wonder most people don't think they can get into aviation.

steveinindy
08-10-2011, 08:18 AM
Pretty hard getting someone interested in flying when you keep throwing 6 and 7 figure planes in their face. No wonder most people don't think they can get into aviation.

I don't know. Most of the planes I saw there this year (unless you go out to the North 40 or Warbirds section) were not multi-million dollar machines. The proliferation of LSAs has certainly filled the aviation equivalent of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kse0MG5n9wI (No offense intended...I'm just using it because of the "We can rebuild him, we have the technology, we just don't want to spend a lot of money" comment)

Fareed Guyot
08-10-2011, 08:30 AM
Greg,

I guess you are going to see what you are going to see...EAA still puts out the same information it did before...just in different ways. Just because it is not in SA in a way you were used to seeing doesn't mean that EAA has abandoned its mission.

Seerjfly
08-10-2011, 09:13 AM
.

Janet Davidson
08-10-2011, 09:17 AM
scratching my head & wondering to whom you are referring here :confused: Of the president & 6 VPs at EAA, 5 of them are pilots; 3 of those own, between them, at least 4 aircraft, & 1 is working on building an aircraft.

The president own two outright and part of a third.

Ok, make that 4 + part of a third then ;)

Then add in all the other staff members who are enthusiastic pilots, aircraft builders, aircraft owners & chapter members. I'm still puzzling where Greg gets the whole "corporate types at HQ" impression from. It would be interesting to understand that one if he would care to expand on it?

Hangar10
08-10-2011, 09:46 AM
The problem is that all those $100K plus airplanes don't do much to "foster aviation" since few can afford them.

I'm not sure that is entirely true.

While I am a builder on a budget, I do know people that can and do purchase those "$100k plus" airplanes. Many of them also love to roll a Piper Cub or small single out of the hangar when they have time. Must the entire experience be "experimental" in order to qualify for our convention or magazine? That would eliminate an awful lot of what people enjoy seeing each month/year, but if you think about it... ALL of the items on display in print or in person were experimental at one time or another. What about the non-builder or aspiring young person that might be interested in aviation or aerospace? Shouldn't we be proud to help introduce cutting edge technologies that might inspire people to educate, consume, work, refine, fly, build, etc.?

Actually, where aircraft are concerned, "$100k plus" accounts for an awful lot of the GA fleet. An RV-10 or nice restoration could get you there pretty quick. How about the Warbirds? I know, they have their own division/magazine, etc., but have you priced any of them lately? A nice P-51D will set you back a couple million... even the AT-6 and other trainer types are well above the $100k mark you mention, never mind the maintenance cost. Surely we don't want those folks to stay home too? I don't, I appreciate them bringing their toys to share with us. I like it all, and if people or manufacturers are willing to showcase their goods at OUR convention or in OUR magazine, I'll look at it. Oh, perhaps I can't afford it... heck, I may not even have a use for it... but I'll look at it and take my son along to look too. Never know where we might find our next idea or interest... and as far as my young son, I have no idea what might inspire him to greatness. I have high hopes for him (as parents do), and I love to see the amazement on his face as we walk the grounds and flip the pages of SA. He can appreciate a nice looking Champ, Tailwind, Pietenpol, ultralight, etc., but also likes the other flying machines that frequent the pages of SA and AirVenture grounds.

I know this is slightly off the topic of SA, but the argument of high end commercialization seems to be a common thread in discussions about our magazine and convention. I would argue that if the opposite were true (experimental trade and techniques only), many would likely be upset that no one provides any of the widgets that we might like to see in our hobby. Seems to me that industry has done a pretty good job at offering reasonable priced widgets and materials as a result of the work that went in to developing those high end offerings. Could there be more stuff geared towards the lowly builder? Perhaps, but we aren't the only one's paying the bills.

My family and I are relative newcomers to EAA, so we don't remember Rockford or the early days of OshKosh, but we enjoy it and I don’t know of anything else like it. The last two years we have returned home ramped up and energized about our project and the EAA. For those that don't like the overblown style of our convention, or multi-page articles about the latest widgets... join Vintage (you’ll still see many $100k+ birds), sign up for a type newsletter or Experimenter or Contact or one of the many lively web forums or e-mail lists. One thing is for sure, regardless of your interest, we have more material available to us today than at any other time... I'm ok with the broad appeal of SA. As for the event on the ground... there are several low key events like Brodhead, WI, Lee Bottom, IN, Gardner, KS, Reklaw, TX, to be had all over the country, not to mention the abundance of local events.

Alright... off my soapbox. I'm really not trying to start an argument, I'm just hoping to point out that EAA SA and AirVenture offer a variety of things to a variety of aviation enthusiasts and I hope that we keep it that way.

Bob Meder
08-10-2011, 11:24 AM
I'm not sure that is entirely true.

<snip>

Alright... off my soapbox. I'm really not trying to start an argument, I'm just hoping to point out that EAA SA and AirVenture offer a variety of things to a variety of aviation enthusiasts and I hope that we keep it that way.

No argument here. I'm only annoyed that you said what I wanted to say, before I could say it. And better, too! :)

David Gray
08-12-2011, 10:12 PM
I think art of why the technical homebuilt information gets "stale" is that its always written for the beginner. Thats fine but at some point there needs to be some advanced material added as well.I think this kind of hits the nail on the head. If you omit the word homebuilt from this quote it explains the content of Sport Aviation. Scratchbuilders are definitely a minority (although I am one) yet the EAA has not left us high and dry. Sport Aviation is my favorite magazine. It used to be Kitplanes.

flybuddy
08-13-2011, 02:02 PM
I think this kind of hits the nail on the head. If you omit the word homebuilt from this quote it explains the content of Sport Aviation. Scratchbuilders are definitely a minority (although I am one) yet the EAA has not left us high and dry. Sport Aviation is my favorite magazine. It used to be Kitplanes.

I agree..What's ironic is that you responded to someone pointing out the need for advanced technical material. Kitplanes always has that but it is as dry as toast and tough to digest. I'll take Sport Aviation over any other aviation magazine.

Frank Giger
08-21-2011, 07:36 PM
I stopped reading the thing when it shows up. Very litte seems relevant to me, a homebuilder.

[edited out, no use grousing]

Fortunately my EAA chapter is excellent with a broad mix of builders (past and present) with different aircraft (from RV's to Legal Eagles), which is why I joined in the first place. After my plane is completed I'll stay around to help out the next new guy that walks into a meeting with a completed rudder asking if someone wouldn't mind checking it over (which is how I introduced myself).

Jim Hann
08-23-2011, 08:16 AM
Since we are talking about Sport Aviation... When will 2010 be added to the search engine on OSH365? I know that Jan 2010 is when the format changed, so maybe that is part of it, what say the folks in 54903?

Also, I'll add my $.02 about getting the other titles up like SA, please!!!!!! I'm sure that everybody wants to see their division first, I don't care which one, but I'd love to see some of the "new" Experimenters or Vintage Airplane up on line, even if it means joining the division to read it! Thanks you very much for all the hard work.

Jim

Hal Bryan
08-23-2011, 09:12 AM
Hi Jim -

I know all that work is in progress, but I haven't heard any updates on a timeline. Things are stalled, a little bit, because we're looking at some alternate solutions for the archives. If the powers-that-be decide to make a change, obviously we'd like to have that in place before adding another big batch or batches of magazines.

For now, though, you can always access and search any issues too "new" to be listed in the archives by going to the current issue online (first link on the EAA Members tab on Oshkosh365) and then clicking the "Back Issues" tab.

Hope that helps in the interim!

- Hal

boevad
09-04-2011, 11:40 AM
I am so disappointed in the "evolution" of SA. I do not understand how emulating the format of Flying magazine meets the needs of EAA's members. I don't need accident recaps, Lane Wallace's regurgitation of a trip she took a while back, or what was in Sport Aviation 50 years ago. This evolution is not bringing me any value, especially when I can get those identical sections in Flying, AOPA Pilot and many others. I maintain my membership because I want to see something DIFFERENT. I want to read about what people are building and restoring. I want to read about those one-off models I see at Oshkosh, both homebuilt and rare production aircraft. Is the editorial board of this magazine telling me they are running out of ideas and so we need to imitate what other established magazines have already been producing for years and market it to its members as "evolutionary"? With all of the gorgeous homebuilts, antiques, warbirds, ultralights, etc. I see at Oshkosh every year, I cannot understand why we cannot see more pics and stories behind those aircraft. Why can't the various chapters be invited to submit stories of what their local clubs are restoring, building or flying? Every new feature that is a knock-off of Flying just frustrates and disappoints me. I read Experimenter and Light Plane World and I think to myself, why isn't more content like this featured in SA. All I'm asking for is content that is unique to EAA, homebuilding, warbirds, etc. Bring back the value that this magazine once offered!

Dave

CarlOrton
09-04-2011, 03:29 PM
Dave;

Not flaming you. However, the issue is that there just aren't any writers out there creating the material for publication. At the Chapter Leader sessions at AirVenture, the SA folks come in and just about *beg* us to send in articles and photos. Additionally, I'm a newsletter editor. I receive "zero" publishable material (i.e., not copyrighted) from my membership.

I like your idea about in-depth stories about the great planes we see at AirVenture - but EAA doesn't have the staff or $$$ to cruise the country on followup to write stories about planes they see on the flightline.

Mike Switzer
09-04-2011, 03:49 PM
I have been reading some back issues online (early to mid 60s) doing some research, and the difference in content is very noticeable. The thing is, most of the articles I am reading were written by EAA members at the local level. I don't know if they were compensated or not, in some cases I suspect they were not.

boevad
09-04-2011, 04:47 PM
Hey Carl,
I appreciate your input. I know the almighty dollar tends to be the issue with many things in life. Since that is no doubt part of the equation, why not either, take the articles from the Experimenter and Light Airplane World and incorporate them into SA. Another suggestion, just do stories on the Airventure award winners. That would limit the pool of aircraft considerably and we could hear the stories behind their superb workmanship. If they are paying Mac and Lane to write, then pay them to write about what the members want to see. The tilt of SA has changed dramatically since those two came on board.

Dave

Mike M
09-04-2011, 06:42 PM
Frank Giger, Mark Switzer and others - since i mistakenly complained about how the magazine hired a new editor from "Flying" and has become mainstream, less what made EAA great, i HAVE been reading each issue. just to see where else i was wrong. regarding content shift, i wasn't. with each succeeding one, culminating in the most recent, it has become less distinguishable from "Flying", "Private Pilot" or "AOPA Pilot". more bang for the buck in "Kitplanes" in only 80 pages. again, this is the tweetch zone, your smileage may vary.

steveinindy
09-04-2011, 06:57 PM
what was in Sport Aviation 50 years ago.

Well, it is helpful for those who are designing LSAs....I mean, you copy what Piper, Luscombe, Aeronca, and company did, only in the cheapest composite you can find and TAA-DAA! You have yourself an LSA.


I want to read about what people are building and restoring.

The problem is that the same ol' articles about some guy's RV or Supercub isn't any more interesting than a regurgitation of the glass cockpit articles that annoy you.


I want to read about those one-off models I see at Oshkosh, both homebuilt and rare production aircraft.

Then how about writing about it yourself? I'd love to see those articles but I'm too busy working on my design for a new homebuilt to go run down such stories.


At the Chapter Leader sessions at AirVenture, the SA folks come in and just about *beg* us to send in articles and photos. Additionally, I'm a newsletter editor. I receive "zero" publishable material (i.e., not copyrighted) from my membership.

I've tried to get in touch with the SA folks about writing but never seem to be able to get in touch with anyone. If you want safety articles for your newsletter, feel free to PM me. That is what I'm doing for a career and have a lot to offer in that regard.

Steve89P
09-04-2011, 07:40 PM
I agree with sdilullo on Mac. He doesn't really fit the sport flyer niche. We can read that kind of article in AOPA. I also stopped readling Flying Mag years ago.

Mike Switzer
09-04-2011, 07:41 PM
Oh I agree, the content of Sport Aviation is significantly different from what it used to be. Yes, Kitplanes has more of what used to be in SA, that said, Kitplanes has the most screwed up subscription department of any magazine i have ever dealt with. (I went round & round with them since March over them saying my subscription was expiring this spring when it was paid thru September) And I have seen things published in Kitplanes that I didn't agree with.

steveinindy
09-04-2011, 08:48 PM
I stopped reading the thing when it shows up. Very litte seems relevant to me, a homebuilder.

Feel free to forward your copies to me. I know a few science teachers to give them to in order to help get kids interested in aviation.


And I have seen things published in Kitplanes that I didn't agree with.

Such as?

That said, I have yet to encounter an aviation magazine that doesn't publish things that are not necessarily defensible from a scientific standpoint....often because the only data source used was the manufacturer or type club (read as "potential bias") or the opinion was based on supposition and/or tradition.

Dana
09-05-2011, 07:06 AM
As a couple of others have pointed out, most hobby magazines rely on article submissions from readers... they don't have enough paid staff (if any) to write them. I wrote a couple of articles for Ultraflight magazine a few years back. The editors just format the articles and correct spelling or grammatical errors... and yes, sadly, sometimes introduce factual errors. Nor do they [generally] pay for submitted articles.

It would be worthwhile for SA to offer anybody who submits an article and gets it published a free year of EAA membership. That would give an incentive to put the effort (and it is a fair amount of work) into writing and submitting an article. The breadth of articles would increase, and the magazine would regain that slightly amateurish touch that made it appealing and "real" to the reader.

PaulDow
09-05-2011, 07:37 AM
I'm going through the Sept. Issue now, and it does look like there's a decent size "Hands on" section. Mike Busch has some real good information in the magazine, and on the webinars.
I am disappointed that safety seems to be synonymous with reinforcing the "scary little aeroplanes" stereotype. The new I'll Never do That Again column seems to be a clone of Flying's I Learned About Flying From That column. NTSB reports are printed in many aviation magazines since they're easy content, but I think they have an adverse affect on someone considering taking up flying.
I was surprised to see a display in the AirVenture Museum with a display of scary I Learned About Flying From That articles, sponsored by Flying Magazine. I would think the reaction from someone considering flying in a small plane after seeing those would be to say that risking their lives isn't worth the benefit of flying.
We need to learn from the mistakes of others. We'll never know how many people now recognize that they're in a spiral after hearing what happened to JFK Jr., but I wonder if safety content could be presented as something positive, instead of emphasizing the consequences?

spungey
09-05-2011, 10:31 AM
Dana raises an interesting point. Why don't we contribute to Sport Aviation? Virtually every one of us has something useful to say--recognizing odd noises, knowing what increasing density altitude feels like, selecting the right engine, selecting the right kit, outfitting your garage, finding the right building partner, and so forth ad nauseum.

Come to think of it, some of us have enough expertise to ensure the accuracy and completeness of candidate articles. I wonder if our magazine or our club would be willing to handle the mechanics of a list of peer reviewers.

steveinindy
09-05-2011, 01:42 PM
I am disappointed that safety seems to be synonymous with reinforcing the "scary little aeroplanes" stereotype.

No, it's reinforcing the idea that one should learn from the mistakes of other because you'll never survive trying to learn from doing all of them yourself. I guess if you want to view it the way you choose to, that's your prerogative, but that's not how I take it at all. However, if you want to see a real uproar, try taking the other tack to safety which is design improvements both on new and existing aircraft. The only time you'll ever see someone get more defensive is if you accuse a Republican politician of being gay.


NTSB reports are printed in many aviation magazines since they're easy content, but I think they have an adverse affect on someone considering taking up flying.

As opposed to the daily reports on every local news program and in every local newspaper about the far greater carnage due to cars? Would you rather we gloss over the safety aspects of our hobby simply to bump up our numbers?


We need to learn from the mistakes of others. We'll never know how many people now recognize that they're in a spiral after hearing what happened to JFK Jr., but I wonder if safety content could be presented as something positive, instead of emphasizing the consequences?

I agree there needs to be more positive reinforcement of the "This is how you handle X" or (even better) the "This is how you avoid Y" but at the same time, either we get the issue of getting away from the "original purpose of the magazine" or- at least judging by a lot of the opinions espoused here and by PM to me on this forum- we go back to having our heads in the sand and focus on the latest multi-million dollar restoration of a Mustang and tips and tricks for how to get an extra five knots out of your RV or Sonex. There needs to be a happy medium between the two.

steveinindy
09-05-2011, 01:44 PM
It would be worthwhile for SA to offer anybody who submits an article and gets it published a free year of EAA membership.

Heck, they give me a lifetime membership, or just a free year's membership and pass to Airventure, I'll start writing a regular column for them on safety that actually goes beyond "So....there I was...."

steveinindy
09-05-2011, 01:45 PM
I wonder if our magazine or our club would be willing to handle the mechanics of a list of peer reviewers.
I will, for one, volunteer to do that if anyone would like me to.

boevad
09-05-2011, 04:15 PM
I will, for one, volunteer to do that if anyone would like me to.
Steve, with the way you sit around and find snide little retorts to people's opinions, I doubt any submitted article would make it to publication after you tore it apart. Just keep sitting around and telling everyone how wrong we are...you seem to have that down pat. By the way, does Mac give you a stipend for every retort?

PaulDow
09-05-2011, 05:49 PM
No, it's reinforcing the idea that one should learn from the mistakes of other because you'll never survive trying to learn from doing all of them yourself.

As opposed to the daily reports on every local news program and in every local newspaper about the far greater carnage due to cars? Would you rather we gloss over the safety aspects of our hobby simply to bump up our numbers?

...either we get the issue of getting away from the "original purpose of the magazine" or- at least judging by a lot of the opinions espoused here and by PM to me on this forum- we go back to having our heads in the sand and focus on the latest multi-million dollar restoration of a Mustang and tips and tricks for how to get an extra five knots out of your RV or Sonex. There needs to be a happy medium between the two.
I guess I didn't fully elaborate that I also believe there's good lessons in learning from past accidents. I've found the information presented at FAASteam and AOPA Foundation seminars very useful. I also realize that not everyone lives In an area where they can go to so many presentations. I'm concerned that the scary stories in aviation interest magazines could be hindering new pilot starts.

I know the local newspapers will put a front page photo of an off-airport landing with no injuries, while a car crash that kills several people gets a couple of paragraphs deep inside. I may be wrong, but I don't think motorcycle, boating, or other recreation magazines cover scary or deadly issues related to their activities.

As Paul mentioned at this year's Homebuilder's Dinner, he would like to see a homebuilder's magazine again. As we've seen in the past, there wasn't enough interest to keep Expementer going the way Warbirds and Vintage groups do for their magazines. I wonder if the current electronic version could be issued in an e-book format instead of the email format that requires you to click to read the full article or get more information? I'm sure there would be complaints from people still using their Coleco computer with a dial up modem, but I think the Kindle/Nook/PDF group might like it.

Mike Switzer
09-05-2011, 05:54 PM
I wonder if the current electronic version could be issued in an e-book format instead of the email format that requires you to click to read the full article or get more information? I'm sure there would be complaints from people still using their Coleco computer with a dial up modem, but I think the Kindle/Nook/PDF group might like it.

I would like to see that. I get hundreds of emails per day, I usually forget I got the experimenter email by the time I have time to look at it, if it was available in pdf format I would download it to read later.

steveinindy
09-05-2011, 06:59 PM
Steve, with the way you sit around and find snide little retorts to people's opinions, I doubt any submitted article would make it to publication after you tore it apart.

Oddly enough, I am a reviewer for several magazines (none related to flying just for the sake of clarification) and about 90% of articles pass with only minor revisions for things like grammar, sentence structure, etc.

Just keep sitting around and telling everyone how wrong we are...you seem to have that down pat.

Disagreeing with your views on a magazine is not the same as thinking you are wrong on technical matters. It's no different than my disagreeing with my colleagues on politics or religion (I'm a Jew....so I'm almost always in the minority when it comes to social situations which is why I don't bring it up) but can still agree with them on things related to work. I think you guys are being overly harsh on the magazine. That's all. Welcome to creative friction. If we all have to march in lock step to get along, we can kiss any progress on this or anything goodbye.


By the way, does Mac give you a stipend for every retort?
You mean MacClellan or however you spell his name? Actually, I have never met him nor talked to him. Thanks for being just as snide and sarcastic as you accuse me of being. I am not purposefully trying to be sarcastic. It's just a rather blunt way of stating something that is said without the benefit of tone of voice or body language being taken out of context.



As Paul mentioned at this year's Homebuilder's Dinner, he would like to see a homebuilder's magazine again. As we've seen in the past, there wasn't enough interest to keep Expementer going the way Warbirds and Vintage groups do for their magazines.

Then let's stop bickering and complaining and do it. As someone pointed out, there's enough experience and knowledge just in the handful of us on this thread alone to fill a magazine.

PaulDow
09-06-2011, 12:33 PM
Well, this is interesting...According to the EAA ChapterGram that came out a couple hours ago, Mac McClellan is now the Director of EAA Publications.

Mike M
09-06-2011, 02:17 PM
Well, this is interesting...According to the EAA ChapterGram that came out a couple hours ago, Mac McClellan is now the Director of EAA Publications.

the definitive end of Sport Aviation as we have known it. expect more generic articles about stuff available in any issue of AOPA Pilot, Business and Commercial Aviation, Flying, Professional Pilot, Rotor and Wing, Private Pilot, the Controller, Pacific Flyer, etc, etc, and less stuff about what built this franchise. farewell, Mr. Poberezny, elder and younger. the death knell of homebuilt experimental aviation exceptionalism? perhaps. but remember - kitplanes.com

Mike M
09-06-2011, 02:20 PM
"I've tried to get in touch with the SA folks about writing but never seem to be able to get in touch with anyone."

yeah, i submitted an article once. learned my lesson from that.

Mike Switzer
09-06-2011, 03:43 PM
yeah, i submitted an article once. learned my lesson from that.

Freshman year of college we were required to write & send a letter to the editor. Mine was printed in a major publication - heavily edited. (Edited enough it made me look like an idiot)

Never again...

martymayes
09-06-2011, 06:15 PM
the definitive end of Sport Aviation as we have known it. expect more generic articles about stuff......

I'm on the edge of my seat anticipating the second installment of "How to fly VFR with an iPad."

sdilullo
09-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Well, this is interesting...According to the EAA ChapterGram that came out a couple hours ago, Mac McClellan is now the Director of EAA Publications.

What the heck happened to Mary Jones?

M. Jones
09-08-2011, 08:54 AM
Mary Jones here … alive and well. Thanks for asking. I’m still around; just have a new title of Executive Editor at this time. The title switch is essentially related to "corporate structure" stuff.

While we (the entire Pubs team) don’t necessarily have time to regularly monitor all the forum threads, we definitely check in on this thread frequently, so be assured we're reading and hearing your thoughts and opinions. Combined with our monthly survey of members regarding the magazine, we get a lot of input to consider.

Beyond that, the Pubs teams doesn't necessarily monitor every forum thread continuously, but Hal Bryan, EAA's social media manager, monitors all the forum posts and keeps us aware of the various conversations taking place. So, again, know you're being read and "heard."

Thanks to all for being caring EAA members.

boevad
09-08-2011, 05:56 PM
Mary,
I appreciate you checking in on this forum. I would like to ask... Where is SA heading? While it retains some of the content that I came to expect from SA, at the same time, the content seems more generic. There are less and less articles that focus in on projects and completed aircraft. I read Flying and AOPA pilot. I'm seeing the content in those magazines now mirrored in SA. Is that the direction that the Pubs team wants to lead SA in? It disappoints me that we, IMHO, are drifting away from what made SA THE magazine for the EAA member. Accident recaps, columnists that have nothing to do with homebuilding, and how to fly articles are not what I want to see in SA. I can get those from other aviation based journals. I maintain my membership to read about what's being built, the stories behind those aircraft. I read to learn about aircraft that do not get covered in other magazines. I don't want to read about topics already covered ad nausea m in other journals. Can we please consider that the evolution that you mentioned is not so much an evolution, but rather a regression that is blurring the lines between SA and magazines like Flying? Please....bring back SA.
Dave

Joe LaMantia
09-09-2011, 07:42 AM
I've been an EAA member for the past 21 years, and yes there have been changes to the publication and to the organization. Aviation is all about change, new designs, new materials, changes in avionics, ATC rules, and just about everything connected with aircraft. Piloting an aircraft requires constant adjustments to changes in attitude, speed, and altitude, change is a constant in aviation. The new publication covers a broader range of topics for the broader audience that makes up EAA today. I had 4 aviation magazine subscriptions back in the 90's, today I have 2, Sport Aviation and AOPA Pilot. I dropped Kitplanes and Flying simply because I couldn't read all four cover to cover every month. In the case of Kitplanes, I found that Sport Aviation covered that subject very well and today we have several ex-Flying writers now doing articles for Sport Aviation! When I joined we had no web site, we are now on our second generation forum which is much better than the first attempt. As indicated above, there is a Homebuilders forum which gives members an opportunity to raise topics and questions within that segment of the EAA community. Sport Aviation as a publication will not return to a Homebuilder only publication, but yes that is it's roots and they do articles every month on that segment. Keep in mind that EAA started out with a handful of guys in Paul's basement and today it's got a global reach with international chapters and an audience in D.C. I would hope we don't lose a member as a result of reaching out to the aviation community.

Joe

spungey
09-10-2011, 03:36 PM
SA is the public face of the EAA.

The EAA is (or should be, IMHO) all about "open source" aviation. And that means "Whatever it takes to get everyone who wants to fly into the air, and everyone who wants to build into the hangar."

It is not clear to me at this point that SA properly represents that viewpoint. Heck, it might not be the viewpoint of anyone but me. Whitman regional (not during AirVenture) sure feels a lot like a local meeting of linux users or dorkbots though, so it might be the official viewpoint. I do recognize also that a great deal of political legwork goes into keeping American aviation free (as in open-source, not necessarily as in beer.) SA seems to be doing OK keeping us abreast of issues with the FAA, FCC, etc.

We who want to design, to build, to contribute more meaningfully should look seriously at what we can do with "Experimenter." I have some ideas that seem like they belong somewhere more technical than SA is (or should be) and also more broadly available than just my chapter.

PaulDow
09-10-2011, 06:06 PM
I just caught up with my SA reading, and caught the statement from Rod that said the magazine will be available for sale in a few pilot shops. I wonder if there's plans to expand that to other magazine racks? If they're going to use the magazine to expand the face of EAA and aviation, I hope they cut back on those scary articles I mentioned earlier.

steveinindy
09-10-2011, 07:44 PM
Whitman regional (not during AirVenture) sure feels a lot like a local meeting of linux users or dorkbots though, so it might be the official viewpoint.

As opposed to what precisely? That pretty much describes a lot of the members of most EAA chapters I am familiar with. ;)

IanXBrown
09-19-2011, 02:34 PM
I think I might be fairly typical. I have built an aircraft - an RV-9A, and probably will not build another one. I like articles about all aspects of flying, building, repairing and I love the new format. There seems to be MORE for the home builder than there used to be - even if it's in small tips and gadgets. Remember if you're a home builder you're also going to be a pilot again one day!

sdilullo
09-30-2011, 07:06 AM
This really can't be a good thing, can it?


McClellan, who said he is “very excited about this opportunity,” will apply his experience at Flying to Sport Aviation by expanding the magazine's content to match the diversity of aircraft at EAA AirVenture. McClellan explained that many EAA members who fly homebuilts and warbirds also fly or own standard aircraft, including light jets and turboprops. Even though each issue will model the diversity of AirVenture, Experimental aircraft will continue to be featured.

Something about that last line sure doesn't sit right...

Source: http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2011/110924new-plans-on-horizon-for-eaa-pubs-airventure.html?WT.mc_id=110930epilot&WT.mc_sect=gan

Neil
09-30-2011, 08:00 AM
Sounds like he plans to eventually kick EXPERIMENTAL to the curb!

Chad Jensen
09-30-2011, 08:06 AM
Sounds like he plans to eventually kick EXPERIMENTAL to the curb!
Not gonna happen...:)

Mike Switzer
09-30-2011, 08:45 AM
Not gonna happen...:)

I sure hope not

dewi8095
09-30-2011, 12:40 PM
Flying magazine lost me as a reader years ago. It did not report on the type of flying that I do. It looks like the new editor intends to follow a similar path with Sport Aviation. We may have a clone of the AOPA Pilot soon. That said, EAA is still the only game around for homebuilts and we'll have to stick with it until something better develops.

Bill Greenwood
09-30-2011, 12:48 PM
McClellan often wrote about IFR flying in his Baron or similar when he was at FLYING. That's great for that market, but is one of the reasons that I don't subscribe to that magazine anymore.
I am not very interested in reading much about jets and turboprops. If you've smelled one diesel burner, you've smelled them all.
I don't want Sport Aviation or EAA to change focus and convert to a mag about business flying. That's for FLYING or maybe the turbine part of AOPA mag.
This seems like the lure of the almighty dollar at work here, and not related to the fun side of sport or gen aviation that EAA has always been about.
Maybe if there are enough protests over this to headquarters it can be stopped.

Neil
09-30-2011, 01:01 PM
Glad to see you over on the Biplane Forum, Chad. Hope to see you there often.

Chad Jensen
09-30-2011, 03:27 PM
Glad to see you over on the Biplane Forum, Chad. Hope to see you there often.
Thanks Neil! I plan to stop in there at least once a day as long as schedule permits. :cool:

Mike Switzer
09-30-2011, 04:12 PM
Thanks Neil! I plan to stop in there at least once a day as long as schedule permits. :cool:

You lucky dog, you get paid to browse aviation forums... :cool:

martymayes
09-30-2011, 04:14 PM
Sounds like they also need to "expand" the North 40 parking to make room for all those jets and turboprops that many EAA members own or fly.

Eric Page
09-30-2011, 04:56 PM
My $0.02:

I'd prefer to see Sport Aviation stick to the core of what EAA is: home building of experimental aircraft. I want to see more articles profiling builders and their aircraft; building techniques, methods and best practices; when they're available, reader contributions about trips they've taken in their experimental aircraft; features about new technology, whether it's experimental engines, avionics, advances in aerodynamics, whatever. SA could also do great service to the factory built S-LSA market, but anything bigger than that -- unless it's experimental -- should be left to others. In short, stick to the core of what EAA represents.

I'm also a long-time AOPA member and I love their magazine. I think Pilot is the best magazine out there for "mainstream" GA pilots. They feature lots of great info on factory aircraft and certified engines and equipment. Their training and safety focus is legendary and worth the annual dues alone. I get the Turbine Pilot edition because it interests me, and I appreciate the option to read that info at no additional cost. They don't have much coverage at all about experimental aircraft, and I don't expect them to. They wisely leave that to EAA. I hope EAA comes to the same conclusion and leaves factory built GA coverage to AOPA Pilot, Flying, Plane & Pilot, etc.

rwanttaja
09-30-2011, 09:31 PM
Steve Wilkinson built a Falco and used to be editor of Flying Magazine. Y'all might remember his name. But Steve Wilkinson also writes for car magazines and history magazines. When I read his stuff in Military History magazine, I don't see references to his Falco or to bizjets or even to cars. The first thing any successful writer learns is to *write to the audience*. No doubt Mac will need a bit of "re-calibration," but there's a pretty good headquarters staff to keep him oriented.

With the downturn in aviation, I'm suspecting the advertising revenue for SPORT AVIATION is down quite a bit. Mac has enough visibility and respect within the industry to help encourage the remaining pool of money to gravitate towards the EAA publications.

Ron Wanttaja

Marlhalbrook
10-03-2011, 11:54 AM
Found this interesting----quote from the very 1st "Sport Aviation" magazine (well, actually, the 1st Experimenter that was published from Paul's typewriter in 1953)
" This association has been in the planning stages
since November 1951. A number of meetings wereheld at Curtiss Wright Airport in Milwaukee over aperiod of a year. We found that enough interestwas shown by people to form a non-profitorganization to encourage the development of anytype of aircraft by individuals throughexperimentation and home building. "

There it is---in Papa Paul's own words---the ORIGINAL motivation for the formation of EAA.

I don't think we are out of line to request that that basic premise be at the heart of the magazine that represents EAA to the world. I agree wholeheartedly that the aviation world has changed, but EAA, at it's core, is ABOUT the experimental/homebuilding side of things. I really hope that the management of the publication side of things will stay centered on EAA's history and not head down a different road, but if the last few issues of SA are an indication of things to come, I think we've passed the proverbial "fork in the road".

I have read Flying magazine for the last 30 years---loved it when J. Mac was the big man over there----but I reallllllllly hope that SA does not become another Flying or AOPA Pilot under his tenure at the helm. Those markets are being covered well enough, thank you!

SA has grown over the years to include pretty much all aspects of SPORT aviation....which I feel does honor the spirit of the original concept of EAA. Developing any type of aircraft does include the restoration and preservation of warbirds, antiques, classics, etc....as well as LSA, ultralights, powered parachutes, gyros, helis, etc... But, the other key thought is that of experimentation and homebuilding. SA should be dedicated to those aspects of aviation above and beyond others----and by having such dedication, SA would stand out from the crowd of other aviation mags---and would truely represent what EAA was originally intended to be.

Of course, this is all just my opinion........

Yellow Peril
10-04-2011, 10:15 AM
Case in point. What does a 84 Bonanza that some doctor has thrown his checkbook at and has dual redundant everything that he flies IFR everywhere have anything to do with "SPORT" aviation?

Kyle Boatright
10-04-2011, 10:25 AM
As I wrote elsewhere, if you exchanged the Baby Ace article in the current SA for an article on something turbine powered, the magazine would be indistinguishable from Flying magazine. The really odd thing in this month's edition of SA was the 3-4 page ramble by Jeff Skiles. Is SA really the place for a column about the guy's experience flying an overnight airline route in a modern jet? Sheesh.

Note to the powers that be: I discontinued my subscription to Flying magazine because it wasn't interesting to me and didn't address the type flying I do. Don't turn SA into the very same magazine.

Chad Jensen
10-04-2011, 02:00 PM
As I wrote elsewhere, if you exchanged the Baby Ace article in the current SA for an article on something turbine powered, the magazine would be indistinguishable from Flying magazine.
I can't agree with this statement in it's broad perspective...the fact that the Baby Ace article is there, the Hands on section with tips, What Our Members are Building, and a new large section devoted to Members (Member Central), is a far cry from Flying Magazine. That's strictly my opinion, and I can respect those of you that don't agree with me.

The fact of the matter is, Sport Aviation has changed. We all know that. The membership of EAA has also changed over the years. Approximately a third of our members are involved in some aspect of Homebuilding (building, built, or bought). The other two thirds are...Warbirds (remember, Paul flew and loved these airplanes), Vintage/Restoration (a staple of EAA's Pioneer Airport), and other interests such as IAC, and yes, even "spam cans". With the membership now being very diverse, Sport Aviation has to adapt to that diversity. It will NEVER be without homebuilding content, but it will probably always now contain "other" stuff that appeals to a large portion of the membership.

I like the new format, and I like the diversity it covers as well as the diversity of the membership. The magazine is the biggest "perk" of being an EAA member, however, it's not the biggest reason for being an EAA member.

Remember, if all you want is homebuilder news, Experimenter is the best place to be...we'll use your articles, and that's where you'll find a lot of my articles and input as well in future issues. I am reviewing past issues of Experimenter to see how things can be better formatted to be more reader friendly, and we welcome input on that too. I'm not the publisher or editor of it, so all I can do is recommend, but it is the best place for ALL homebuilt news all the time!

As the "Homebuilt guy" at EAA now, I completely understand the frustrations of the Homebuilder community over the direction of Sport Aviation, but know that we will always have a part of the magazine, even if it isn't the entire thing anymore. :cool:

Frank Giger
10-04-2011, 03:51 PM
Okay, I take back my post on the magazine. Last issue was Light Plane heavy, with a bit on the T-6 that's interesting.

As a back yard builder (no way my wife is gonna let that thing into our home) I'm already thinking maintenance and repair. The "always for the rookie" problem could be solved with the occasional article on fabric repair, Danger Signs To Look For, etc.

Kyle Boatright
10-04-2011, 07:39 PM
I can't agree with this statement in it's broad perspective...\\

<<much snippage>>

As the "Homebuilt guy" at EAA now, I completely understand the frustrations of the Homebuilder community over the direction of Sport Aviation, but know that we will always have a part of the magazine, even if it isn't the entire thing anymore. :cool:

Chad,

I'm not only interested in homebuilding, as the Champ in the basement proves. I like warbirds, ultralights, LSA's, and experimentals too. But Mac's column doesn't fit with any of those. Nor does the guy who was featured in the "Hands on" section who is doing a checkbook upgrade on his 1984 Bonanza. It is great that he's taking care of the airplane, but how's that "hands on"? Then there was the truly bizzarre column from Jeff Stiles. I still can't figure out what carrying a hundred folks in a kerosene burner has to do with Sport Aviation. The rest of the "commentary" columns this month were barely any better.

The T-6 article was OK, as was the Stearman article. The Baby Ace article was good, as was the article on buying a second hand project. Everything else in the issue could have been lifted straight from Flying magazine. Shoot, SA has even adopted the last page retrospective of previous issues that Flying has featured for years.

Neil
10-05-2011, 06:58 PM
Chad, I don't think the membership is any more diverse now than it was say, 30 or 40 years ago. There has always been a large percentage of the membership that flies the typical Wichita stuff. Thing is I don't think they joined EAA because they wanted to see 182s Bonanzas or King Airs in the magazine. I think they joined because they were interested in what was happening in the only aviation arena in which innovation was taking place. Times do change and I have no objection to seeing a nicely restored V-Tail in the magazine, just think that there are enough magazines out there for the business pilot and there in is where I see the difference.

Frank Giger
10-05-2011, 08:35 PM
The odd thing is that the middle ground is easy to find.

Gripe one: It's the EAA, and the EAA at its very core is a homebuilding organization, and while spam cans are tolerated they should be secondary.
Gripe two: How many RV builds can one read about and stay interested? Read one article on cutting sheet metal and you've read them all. My membership dollars fund your homebuilding organization, buddy.
Gripe three: What do you mean I'm not a homebuilder because I restored a Cub instead of building it from stock steel tubes and lumber?

We have a guy in our chapter that has never owned an airplane, let alone built one. That struck me as really bizarre, to be honest. Why join an organization of guys who build planes when you have no desire to even own a spam can? The answer is pretty simple, and a good one: since he rents planes he wants to know how they're put together, how to maintain them, and what to look for on a plane he's renting; the guys that start from stacks of raw materials know what right looks like on an aircraft, and it's a free source of advice. Plus we're a built in Blue Collar Pilot's Club, and a good half hour (if not more) of every meeting turns into Story Time.

The middle ground is to find middle topics.

For example, one of my instructor's students (*cough*) proved that airport landing lights are frangeable during his first fast taxi lesson in a Champ. My instructor didn't do the fabric repair himself, but knowing how it would be repaired and what to look for when the job was done was a very keen piece of knowledge for him. As a builder of a tube-and-fabric plane it's of interest to me as well, in case I lend my plane to that guy that flew the Champ that day. ;)

One off T-6 or transponder upgrade or new model aircraft articles don't hurt anything and add grist to the mill, IMHO.

FloridaJohn
10-06-2011, 07:43 AM
I am reviewing past issues of Experimenter to see how things can be better formatted to be more reader friendly, and we welcome input on that too. I'm not the publisher or editor of it, so all I can do is recommend, but it is the best place for ALL homebuilt news all the time!
My suggestion is to get rid of the multiple column format in e-mail newsletters. They are very difficult to read as an e-mail, with lots of scrolling up and down to get through all the stories.

Bill Berson
10-10-2011, 01:32 PM
EAA should have a print homebuilder magazine. Why does EAA have Sport Aerobatics, Warbirds, Vintage, etc., but no homebuilder magazine?
(yes I read the online Experimenter, better than nothing at all)

It seems anything that shows up at Oshkosh is fair game for print. So I suspect a future cover will have the 787.
This is frustrating for a long time member (currently ex-member).
It gave me stomach acid when I read Sport Aviation and I was forced to let my membership lapse for health reasons. Because it does not represent EAA. I don't mind a broad spectrum of million dollar private and commercial airplanes at Oshkosh, but it is an insult to have it in the EAA publication.
Further, the publication should be about aircraft, period. Not how to fly.

Bill

Mike M
10-10-2011, 02:29 PM
Flying magazine lost me as a reader years ago. It did not report on the type of flying that I do. It looks like the new editor intends to follow a similar path with Sport Aviation. We may have a clone of the AOPA Pilot soon. That said, EAA is still the only game around for homebuilts and we'll have to stick with it until something better develops.

ditto your opinion and concerns about Flying and SA. but you're wrong about being stuck with it. kitplanes.com. they're doing pretty good work over there in only eighty pages an issue.

Mike M
10-10-2011, 02:30 PM
McClellan often wrote about IFR flying in his Baron or similar when he was at FLYING. That's great for that market, but is one of the reasons that I don't subscribe to that magazine anymore.
I am not very interested in reading much about jets and turboprops. If you've smelled one diesel burner, you've smelled them all.
I don't want Sport Aviation or EAA to change focus and convert to a mag about business flying. That's for FLYING or maybe the turbine part of AOPA mag.
This seems like the lure of the almighty dollar at work here, and not related to the fun side of sport or gen aviation that EAA has always been about.
Maybe if there are enough protests over this to headquarters it can be stopped.

concur.

Eric Page
10-12-2011, 06:43 PM
My suggestion is to get rid of the multiple column format in e-mail newsletters. They are very difficult to read as an e-mail, with lots of scrolling up and down to get through all the stories.

Couldn't agree more. I read most of the newsletters I receive on my phone, and single-column layout is much easier.

Yellow Peril
10-26-2011, 01:05 PM
Oh Boy! I just glanced at this months SA. Mac gives a flight report on the Socata Turbine. What in the heck has that got to do with sport aviation? If this is the way the new regime at EAA is going I'm outa here!

martymayes
10-26-2011, 01:08 PM
Oh Boy! I just glanced at this months SA. Mac gives a flight report on the Socata Turbine. What in the heck has that got to do with sport aviation? If this is the way the new regime at EAA is going I'm outa here!

Now, I'm sure there is a quarter page article on homebuilding in there....somewhere.

Yellow Peril
10-26-2011, 03:53 PM
Mac could have done a pirep on a Lancair Evolution or IV Turbine. Be much more appropriate for this magazine. Has Mac ever flown a homebuilt?

KDoersom
10-26-2011, 05:40 PM
Mac has gotta go. On the cover it said about an article on the history of Socata. That I could have gone for. Instead it is an article about the TBM with a little side bar on the history of the company. How about articles on RVs, rans, the searay, velocitys, Classic cessnas pipers etc. An article on the TBM 850 has nothing to do with sport aviation. I am really glad you guys brought Lane over from flying. Lets make her editor. Lane knows what sport aviation is about. Mac go back to flying or see if you can go to AOPA is this is the type of stuff you want to right about. Just use this simple rule: If it cost over $500,000 and is not a Warbird, Classic, Antique, or Home built it doesn't belong in Sport Aviation. We need to do articles on ways to keep flying cheaper not more expensive. How about How to build a pole barn hangar, getting a bunch of people together to build a grass strip to keep their planes at. Articles on how to weld, cover with fabric, sheet metal work. Do a series on each that cover the basics. Just look at Kitplanes for ideas. How about the 16 owner allowed maintenance items.

This months column by Stiles is relevant. Let keep him writing this way. Lauren Paine is good as well. You guys had a first class magazine. Lets get back to it.

Keith

Kyle Boatright
10-26-2011, 07:09 PM
Oh Boy! I just glanced at this months SA. Mac gives a flight report on the Socata Turbine. What in the heck has that got to do with sport aviation? If this is the way the new regime at EAA is going I'm outa here!

IMO, that's throwing the baby out with the bath water. Regardless of how far Sport Aviation slips, I think EAA is a worthwhile organization.

That said, I believe the EAA is headed for a "New Coke" moment where it'll wake up one day and realize that long term members are leaving because the product is no longer what they grew to like. The question is how much damage will have occurred in the meantime.

martymayes
10-26-2011, 08:05 PM
I wonder how long it will be before homebuilts are banned from AirVenture?

Chad Jensen
10-26-2011, 08:43 PM
Oh Boy! I just glanced at this months SA. Mac gives a flight report on the Socata Turbine. What in the heck has that got to do with sport aviation? If this is the way the new regime at EAA is going I'm outa here!Stick around...I think you'll like what is coming. ;o) Homebuilding articles are still there...nothing has been cut, just new and different content that does appeal to a large portion of membership. Great article on the Super Chub, Hands On, What our Members are Building, Member Central...lots of homebuilder stuff is still there...

Chad Jensen
10-26-2011, 08:46 PM
Now, I'm sure there is a quarter page article on homebuilding in there....somewhere.See my previous post...there's a lot more homebuilding coverage in the issue than non-homebuilding articles.
I wonder how long it will be before homebuilts are banned from AirVenture?Now that's just silly...:o)

martymayes
10-26-2011, 08:58 PM
Now that's just silly...:o)

That's exactly what I thought when someone said there was a TBM 850 article in SA. Talk about losing touch with your audience......

Yellow Peril
10-26-2011, 09:02 PM
I'm sorry Chad but an article on a turbine corporate airplane does not belong in this magazine period! This is SPORT AVIATION MAGAZINE!!!!!! If pilots want to read about new GA aircraft let them buy Flying or Pilot. And I ask again has Mac ever even sat in a homebuilt airplane or flown one? Get an editor that speaks sport flying. The comparison with what happened to "New Coke" is a good one. Don

Chad Jensen
10-26-2011, 09:11 PM
And I ask again has Mac ever even sat in a homebuilt airplane or flown one? Get an editor that speaks sport flying. The comparison with what happened to "New Coke" is a good one. DonI honestly can't answer this Don. I'd be happy to ask him, just met him last week, and have had limited interaction with him at this point. I'll be working with him on homebuilding coverage going forward though.

Chad Jensen
10-26-2011, 09:20 PM
That's exactly what I thought when someone said there was a TBM 850 article in SA. Talk about losing touch with your audience......Well not really...the percentage of members that are not homebuilders, or don't have a strong interest in homebuilding is about 2/3rds of the membership. I am a homebuilder, and the homebuilding community thru EAA has been entrusted to me, but while the TBM article won't appeal to some (I've flown one for about 40 hours or so, and it's a great airplane), it may appeal to others. It actually doesn't appeal to me, but I'll take it all because EAA is so much more than an article on the TBM, or Sport Aviation for that matter. It's appeal is being broadened for sure...

martymayes
10-26-2011, 09:33 PM
Well not really...the percentage of members that are not homebuilders, or don't have a strong interest in homebuilding is about 2/3rds of the membership. I am a homebuilder, and the homebuilding community thru EAA has been entrusted to me, but while the TBM article won't appeal to some (I've flown one for about 40 hours or so, and it's a great airplane), it may appeal to others. It actually doesn't appeal to me, but I'll take it all because EAA is so much more than an article on the TBM, or Sport Aviation for that matter. It's appeal is being broadened for sure...


Chad, if someone joined EAA to read about spam cans then they joined the wrong club. I fail to see how this broadens the appeal of the publication. To me is indicates someone is losing focus. Again, going back to an EAA survey a while back I indicated "how to fly" and "romance" articles have zero appeal to me. Had they asked about pilot reports on production airplanes, I would have added that to the list. If that is what I need, I will look elsewhere. Apparently I'm the only one that feels that way so I guess I'll have to find another narrow focused pub that is not trying to please everyone.

Burtles
10-26-2011, 09:43 PM
Marty you are not the only one that feels this way, I agree with you. Sport Aviation is going downhill fast. The story has come out of HQ that Mac Mclelland described Burt Rutan as a failure. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=792874

martymayes
10-26-2011, 09:54 PM
I'll stand down now and let the 2/3rds of the membership not interested in homebuilts login and praise the TBM article. If thats what everyone wants then I guess I'm the one in the wrong club.

Chad Jensen
10-26-2011, 09:55 PM
Again, this info on what Mac "said" was posted on VAF with an anonymous user and the details are incorrect.

Chad Jensen
10-26-2011, 09:59 PM
I'll stand down now and let the 2/3rds of the membership not interested in homebuilts login and praise the TBM article. If thats what everyone wants then I guess I'm the one in the wrong club.I know I'm not going to win the argument here, nor am I trying...just providing facts as they are reported thru membership surveys. I don't want you to stand down. This is a good discussion, one that is happening on many type forums, and I'm happy to help wherever I can to provide info.

Yellow Peril
10-26-2011, 10:24 PM
So since 2/3rds of the members are non builders does that mean that 2/3rds of the content is going to be GA stuff? The reason the 2/3rds have always joined EAA is to keep up with the innovations of the experimental world and dream about maybe building or having some of the innovations in their own airplanes. I've been a member over 25 years and have built two airplanes, restored three and building another RV7. I'll give it a year and see where EAA goes.

Dana
10-27-2011, 05:55 AM
It's appeal is being broadened for sure...

Hmmm, Ferarri could "broaden its appeal" by building a 4 seat economy car or a soccer mom minivan... but it wouldn't be Ferarri any more...

Hal Bryan
10-27-2011, 07:10 AM
Hmmm, Ferarri could "broaden its appeal" by building a 4 seat economy car or a soccer mom minivan... but it wouldn't be Ferarri any more...

Fair point, Dana, but one of EAA's goals is to grow sport aviation, while Ferrari is not out there to grow driving... :)

The idea of broadening the appeal of the magazine, and I'm essentially quoting Rod here, is meant to be an additive thing, not a shift in focus, and sure as **** not an abandonment of our base / history / core / legacy whatever you want to call it.

In that same breath, Rod issued the challenge to Chad and his boss, as well as to our Publications team, to significantly step up and enhance homebuilder / "craftsman" coverage across all media. I haven't known Chad very long, but, from what I've seen, he could do a lot of that singlehandedly, though, obviously, he won't be. However ... I don't mind saying that he needs your input, ideas, content and most of all, your support to keep building on the excellent work he's already started in his short time on the job.

This is a great discussion, and a great example of one of the key reasons we have forums in the first place. Well, I guess this is the "second place" ... thank goodness we're not still trying to have this conversation on the old forum! :)

Bill Berson
10-27-2011, 09:57 AM
You guys must think we are stupid. It is impossible to "broaden the appeal of the magazine" without insulting the core EAA homebuilders and low cost flyers. If just one comment or article appears in the magazine about corporate jets or turboprops it is enough to get me angry. The early Sport Aviation from the '60's would never have used an article about the "new" Lear Jet. EAA was the alternative to corporate aviation then.
EAA was supposed to be the alternative to FLYING, now it has become FLYING even to the point of using Mac as editor (or soon to be editor). This is incredible.

I know magazines are driven by advertisers. That is the problem, homebuilders do not advertise or buy expensive jets. Rod wants to "broaden the appeal" to people with money and general aviation types. This has been happening for years now (decades actually), like a frog that is slowly cooked.
Sure, 2/3 of the members are not builders or restorers now. So the non- builders are the majority now and the homebuilders have no say in a poll of the members preferences anymore (because the GA types have the majority).

I might as well get a subscription to FLYING. At least that won't anger me with each issue because I know it will have jets, and a subscription is only about $10.
Bill Berson

Dana
10-27-2011, 03:35 PM
Fair point, Dana, but one of EAA's goals is to grow sport aviation, while Ferrari is not out there to grow driving...

Perhaps not, but Ferarri might be interested in growing sport driving...

But I still don't see how a TBM or Learjet relates to "sport" aviation.

Kyle Boatright
10-27-2011, 04:36 PM
Fair point, Dana, but one of EAA's goals is to grow sport aviation,

Hal, thanks for jumping in, but putting the TBM article, columns on flying people tubes, and "light twin reviews" in Sport Aviation isn't going to grow sport aviation. It is going to run off the base EAA has built. The base that could (and probably does) subscribe to Flying and AOPA, but isn't satisfied with those products, so joins EAA, in part to get a magazine on the interesting or aspirational side of aviation. And saying that these articles don't subtract from homebuilt (or U/L or Antique or Warbird) content is a non-starter. Sport Aviation's budget allows for "X" pages. When quite a few of those pages are dedicated to something other than the EAA's core mission, the enthusiasts lose. Why? Because Sport Aviation is the only magazine that carries good articles on the interesting aircraft. All the other magazines are about "GA as transportation", which isn't why people come to the EAA.


The magazine is off message and is damaging the brand. This thread and a half dozen like it in other aviation forums demonstrate that. Nobody is coming to the plate and saying "Gosh, I'm so glad there was a C-182 article in the last SA, I couldn't have gotten that information anywhere else."

Eric Page
10-27-2011, 07:00 PM
I've been a member of AOPA for more than 20 years. I think AOPA Pilot is one of the best GA magazines currently published. I subscribe to their Turbine edition because I fly a twin turboprop for a living and that segment of aviation interests me. I feel that Pilot's coverage of GA, including corporate aircraft, is second-to-none. I'm sure Flying, Plane & Pilot, and all the rest have plenty of similar coverage.

I'm not a homebuilder yet, but I joined EAA perhaps 15 years ago because I wanted information about homebuilding. I plan to start an airplane project within the next few years, so I want to see what other builders are doing, what kit/plans manufacturers are coming up with, what's new in small piston engine and avionics technology, etc. I want articles on building techniques, proper tool usage, test flying, E-AB certification issues, and so on. That is why I joined EAA.

I don't need -- or want -- articles on million-dollar turboprops in my EAA magazine. People join EAA because they're interested in what EAA is all about: amateur built airplanes. In my view, "broadening" Sport Aviation to attract members with divergent interests is a mistake. Does EAA really want a lot of additional "GA interest" members who likely won't be part of local chapters and won't contribute to improving amateur building techniques or otherwise advancing the movement?

Is this audience-broadening effort about increasing dues revenue, or maximizing the total membership count to improve EAA's lobbying weight in Washington?

kscessnadriver
10-27-2011, 07:21 PM
People join EAA because they're interested in what EAA is all about: amateur built airplanes. In my view, "broadening" Sport Aviation to attract members with divergent interests is a mistake. Does EAA really want a lot of additional "GA interest" members who likely won't be part of local chapters and won't contribute to improving amateur building techniques or otherwise advancing the movement?


So, if I don't participate in a local chapter, I'm not welcome in the EAA? Perhaps if that's the case it's time for me to reconsider being a member?


I enjoy reading about experimental stuff in the magazine. I don't really mind the higher end piston GA stuff, but once they move into new, JetA burning equipment, it's out of Sport Aviation's league, IMO.

Eric Page
10-27-2011, 07:45 PM
So, if I don't participate in a local chapter, I'm not welcome in the EAA? Perhaps if that's the case it's time for me to reconsider being a member?
Whoa there, big fella! I know there are some EAA members who aren't chapter members. Heck, I'm not (but you can bet I will be when I'm ready to build!). I certainly don't mean to suggest that you're not welcome if you like or fly spam cans. Everyone's welcome!

My point is simply that there are other organizations and magazines that cater specifically and effectively to that audience. In my opinion, EAA should not try to make SA be all things to all aviators. Rather, it should stick to comprehensive and in-depth coverage of the interests of EAA's core constituency.

I think the complaints here boil down to essentially this: we'd much rather see a seven page how-to article on [insert building skill here] than a report on a plane almost none of us will ever set foot in, let alone fly.

Mike Switzer
10-27-2011, 09:20 PM
I'm not a local chapter member, because the chapter local to me has little to no interest in serious homebuilding

But that is the sole reason I joined EAA, I am designing my own "homebuilt" airplane (I am a licensed professional engineer, so I'm not sure really what "homebuilt" means other than it won't be built in a factory)

But to the point of this thread, if I want to read about production turbines I will read Flying or AOPA Pilot - in fact I get Flying pretty much for free at a "professional rate" to put in my waiting room since they were about to go under with their former editor... Oh, wait a minute.....

Chad Jensen
10-27-2011, 09:22 PM
Is this audience-broadening effort about increasing dues revenue, or maximizing the total membership count to improve EAA's lobbying weight in Washington?Generating revenue is essential to keeping any organization going, but one of the biggest problems we face at EAA is our aging membership. We absolutely must make this a priority or Sport Aviation and EAA will slowly dwindle to nothing. Another issue is the fact that so much homebuilding information is available at the stroke of a key on the Internet, that all publications are suffering in print form. Sport Aviation is no different, and in order to keep it going, there needs to be a spot in there for everyone. There is room for everyone. EAA is and always has been an organization that embraces all facets of aviation...just look at at the arrivals at AirVenture every summer. Homebuilding is continually growing, and in a meeting this week, Rod opened with "homebuilding is what started this organization, it's our roots, and we will never abandon it." Mac was in the same meeting. I do think he is getting an education here and I think working with him will bring more homebuilding articles back to the magazine. Online resources are huge today, and EAA has plenty. Keeping the magazine coming to your mailboxes is a big priority, but to do that, we have to embrace all things aviation...even articles that don't seem to belong in there to us as homebuilders.

KDoersom
10-27-2011, 09:43 PM
Chad

You mentioned the aging membership. I agree that this is a problem and we need to get younger people involved in aviation. Lets take me as an example. I am in my early 30's have a decent paying job and a small family. There is no way I can afford most aircraft out there. Hangars around here are 500 a month. Once you take the house payment, Cars, Insurance, food utilities and retirement there isn't much left. Lets focus more on the affordable aircraft out there than the ones that are out of most peoples means. How can we make flying cheaper. To get young people involved we need to focus on the more affordable ways to fly instead of the latest greatest gee wiz turbines that can do just about anything without you having to touch the controls. My generation I think will be the first to not be as well off as our parents generation as a whole. We all have less disposable income. Flying has got to be cheaper for us to be able to do it. The SP was a great start but when the aircraft are at 100,000 plus the rental costs are still high. C172 rent for about 120-150 an hour around here and the LSA are not much less. When I learned in 98 I was getting a C150 for 40 an hour wet, It was affordable then ( I was a high school student paying my own way)now not so much. Last months issue on the Fly baby was a perfect example of how we can fly cheaply.. I fly professionally for a living and while I like to read about the turbine stuff that is why I get BCA, AOPA, Flying etc. for. When I open up Sport Aviation I want to read about grass roots type of flying. Aircraft that are economical to buy, maintain and fly. Lets help make the dream a realization for more people buy showing them that you don't have to be super wealthy to do this.

Keith

Chad Jensen
10-27-2011, 10:14 PM
We talked about exactly this topic in that same meeting Keith...we are listening...

Mike Switzer
10-28-2011, 07:01 AM
Sport Aviation is no different, and in order to keep it going, there needs to be a spot in there for everyone.

Chad, This is what has me worried. Just as an example, I have been a subscriber to Old Cars & Parts magazine for over 20 years. It was a great magazine that focused on exactly the kind of automotive work I am interested in. Last fall it was eliminated & the content was rolled into a conglomeration of several magazines published by Amos Automotive Publishing called "Auto Enthusiast". The majority of the new magazine has nothing I am interested in, the content I am interested in has been reduced to approx 30 pages, if you don't count the ads it is less than 10. I am not renewing this year, I have decided to subscribe to Hemmings Classic Car instead.

I am afraid this is the direction Sport Aviation is headed.

Now I am not a member of EAA for the magazine (Well, in a way I am as the online access to the old issues is a great help with my research) but to many the magazine is the public face of EAA, and the content WILL influence membership numbers.

dewi8095
10-28-2011, 07:06 AM
Chad and Hall are to be commended for their steadfast support of EAA's position. From the information they have provided, it appears that experimenters, homebuilders, ultralight flyers, & maybe even sport pilots, currently represent a 1/3rd minority in the organizational membership. If that is the case, we can expect a minority's share of Sport Pilot. It has to be so because the 2/3rd's wants and needs must be met or those members will drop out. The 2/3rds group seems to be the growing segment of EAA, so that is where the organizational emphasis will be.

I am very grateful for EAA's advocacy role in promoting and protecting our right to build and fly light airplanes, and I will continue my membership to support that advocacy. At the same time, I am watching for another homebuilder-, light sport-oriented organization to emerge. If one does, I will support it too with the hope that it might become what EAA used to be.

In the meantime, let's enjoy what "experimental" remains in the EAA.

Don DeWitt

Aaron Novak
10-28-2011, 07:37 AM
[QUOTE=Chad Jensen;4701] Another issue is the fact that so much homebuilding information is available at the stroke of a key on the Internet, that all publications are suffering in print form. QUOTE]

Unfortunately you are assuming that the information given over the "internet" is sound. This I believe to be a serious flaw in the current culture surrounding anything engineering wise, and yes that includes homebuilts. There is so much mis-information, biased information and just plain BS being promoted via the "web", and reliable sources seem to keep drying up for the average person. Thats what the old sport aviation seemed to be, it was the link between the professional aeronautical engineer, and the garage ( or hangar ) engineer. Almost a trade magazine of sorts. A way to convey sound information to all levels of aircraft designer and builder. That took technical people writing articles, and technical people doing the editing and publishing. To me that is the part that is missing currently. Maybe this is what the majority want? Maybe the old technical articles would be over the heads of the 2/3's of SA readers nowdays? In any event it seems that the loss of a mainstream publication with real technical articles has forced many new homebuilders to sift through the internet, and thats a shame.

Mike Switzer
10-28-2011, 07:45 AM
There is so much mis-information, biased information and just plain BS being promoted via the "web", and reliable sources seem to keep drying up for the average person. Thats what the old sport aviation seemed to be, it was the link between the professional aeronautical engineer, and the garage ( or hangar ) engineer. Almost a trade magazine of sorts. A way to convey sound information to all levels of aircraft designer and builder. That took technical people writing articles, and technical people doing the editing and publishing. To me that is the part that is missing currently.

Not just on the web, I subscribe to another popular magazine aimed at homebuilders & I have seen things in it that have glaring errors & have obviously not been peer reviewed. The type of articles being written for our "industry" should in my opinion be subject to peer review and the editing staff should have some technical knowledge to avoid errors, because in this field a error in print could kill someone.

Chad Jensen
10-28-2011, 08:05 AM
Unfortunately you are assuming that the information given over the "internet" is sound.
True...there are plenty of places on the internet to get sound information. Being an EAA member and having access to thousands of archived articles is a huge plus...and very sound information. Hints for Homebuilders is another excellent place to get sound information, and watch it happen in front of you over the course of 4 or 5 minutes, rather than waiting a month for a hint or two to be read in the magazine. Webinars...one a week is broadcast, and only experts on subjects are presenters.

These are the things that I'm talking about. Various forums are a fantastic place to share information, energy, enthusiasm, and I truly believe that users of such forums know to take the information they receive for what it's worth.

The magazine is EAA's flagship, and as a flagship it has to include things all of our members are interested in. The homebuilding content is still there, and in fact the coverage should get better in the future. With only one issue a month, it's hard to wait until the next one to see what's new, but that's part of the charm of a print magazine...I know it is for me anyway.

If we want a magazine to go back to nothing but technical articles and how-to's, we just have to get rid of the internet and all of it's information.

Aaron Novak
10-28-2011, 08:28 AM
If we want a magazine to go back to nothing but technical articles and how-to's, we just have to get rid of the internet and all of it's information.

Hey I'm all for that! :)

Chad Jensen
10-28-2011, 08:32 AM
;) Btw Aaron, looking forward to meeting you at the next Chapter meeting!

Aaron Novak
10-28-2011, 09:06 AM
;) Btw Aaron, looking forward to meeting you at the next Chapter meeting!

Same here, should be fun! And dont get me wrong, I know why things change, but for the seemingly dying breed of us technical guys, its just another "nail in the coffin".

rosiejerryrosie
10-28-2011, 11:09 AM
Same here, should be fun! And dont get me wrong, I know why things change, but for the seemingly dying breed of us technical guys, its just another "nail in the coffin".

Don't take this the wrong way, but I am inclined to question why a 'technical guy' has to depend on a magazine for his info....:confused:

Dana
10-28-2011, 11:13 AM
Don't take this the wrong way, but I am inclined to question why a 'technical guy' has to depend on a magazine for his info....:confused:

Even professional engineers read trade publications to see what new products area available, and maybe get ideas for new or different ways of doing things. This is no different.

Dana
10-28-2011, 11:14 AM
Here's a thought, EAA already has divisions for vintage aircraft, aerobatics, etc... perhaps it's time for an "experimental" or "homebuilder" division, with its own magazine...

Aaron Novak
10-28-2011, 11:30 AM
Don't take this the wrong way, but I am inclined to question why a 'technical guy' has to depend on a magazine for his info....:confused:

Maybe the technical guy has something to share? Remember publications are as much an outlet for one, as a resource for another. And thats were SA used to bridge the "professionals" and the "enthusiasts", it was a common place for one to learn from another, and it went both ways.

Mike Switzer
10-28-2011, 11:40 AM
Even professional engineers read trade publications to see what new products area available, and maybe get ideas for new or different ways of doing things. This is no different.

And they make us do CPE to keep our licenses...

FloridaJohn
10-28-2011, 11:42 AM
thank goodness we're not still trying to have this conversation on the old forum! :)
Amen to that! :)

Yellow Peril
10-28-2011, 01:17 PM
Here's a thought, EAA already has divisions for vintage aircraft, aerobatics, etc... perhaps it's time for an "experimental" or "homebuilder" division, with its own magazine...

We did, it was called Sport Aviation!

kscessnadriver
10-28-2011, 02:04 PM
We did, it was called Sport Aviation!

And times have changed. Face it, the way experimental aviation works has changed too. Today you can buy a "kit plane" that was built by a professional builder. Or you can buy a kit that includes a trip to an assembly factory, in which you barely assist in the building of said aircraft.

Like it or not, the demographics have changed within the organization. They in no way favor the inclusion of young people. Often times, being one of the youngest people in the forum, I feel like the older crowd wants nothing to do with the young people, unless they think exactly alike. This is one of the main reasons I've never become a chapter member. I've been to a few different chapter events, and never once have felt welcome at my age.

Perhaps its time for EAA to consider the future, or soon there will be no EAA.

Kyle Boatright
10-28-2011, 05:21 PM
Chad and Hall are to be commended for their steadfast support of EAA's position. From the information they have provided, it appears that experimenters, homebuilders, ultralight flyers, & maybe even sport pilots, currently represent a 1/3rd minority in the organizational membership. If that is the case, we can expect a minority's share of Sport Pilot. It has to be so because the 2/3rd's wants and needs must be met or those members will drop out. The 2/3rds group seems to be the growing segment of EAA, so that is where the organizational emphasis will be.



My opinion is that the 2/3 of the membership which isn't active in homebuilding is interested in homebuilding, antiques, or warbirds, which is why they joined EAA. They want to read about interesting things, things they aspire to do. Sort of like I read articles about climbing Mt Everest, but never expect to make that climb (or plan to do it after I retire). Or like I subscribe to "Fine Woodworking" magazine, not because I'm a great woodworker or ever will be, but because I aspire to be one. That's the beauty of Sport Aviation magazine - it gives aviation enthusiasts something to dream about.

Turning it into a transportation magazine (or devoting meaningful space to that) is a great way to quench the fires and aspirations of enthusiasts everwhere

Jalsup
10-30-2011, 07:05 AM
I'm sorry Chad but an article on a turbine corporate airplane does not belong in this magazine period! This is SPORT AVIATION MAGAZINE!!!!!! If pilots want to read about new GA aircraft let them buy Flying or Pilot. And I ask again has Mac ever even sat in a homebuilt airplane or flown one? Get an editor that speaks sport flying. The comparison with what happened to "New Coke" is a good one. Don

Oh come on! Don't be such a Debbie Downer! I'm certain that there is a huge number of members that would love to fly their TBM when they aren't flying their Flybaby or Champ or something. I posted to my friends on the National Waco Club forum (Best type club of all time!) that if I saw an article about a replica AVN-8 (the tri-gear cabin Waco) that had a PT-6 and glass cockpit I would set myself on fire like a protesting Buddhist monk.

propjock
10-30-2011, 07:16 AM
My opinion is that the 2/3 of the membership which isn't active in homebuilding is interested in homebuilding, antiques, or warbirds, which is why they joined EAA. They want to read about interesting things, things they aspire to do. Sort of like I read articles about climbing Mt Everest, but never expect to make that climb (or plan to do it after I retire). Or like I subscribe to "Fine Woodworking" magazine, not because I'm a great woodworker or ever will be, but because I aspire to be one. That's the beauty of Sport Aviation magazine - it gives aviation enthusiasts something to dream about.

Turning it into a transportation magazine (or devoting meaningful space to that) is a great way to quench the fires and aspirations of enthusiasts everwhereI agree completely; there's no quicker way to kill the homebuilt movement than to make it appear fringe.

Clarke Tate
10-30-2011, 09:25 AM
I remember my first convention as a 7 year old. We walked to a theater and watched a film, camped in tents and had ICE cold showers. I remember reading a Sport Aviation article by Tony Binglelis about building his Piel Emeruade while I hid inside my sleeping bag, in a tent trying to keep the magazine from getting wet during a pouring rain (tents were even literally blowing down the road that convention). I loved that convention; someday I would build my own airplane!

I never thought when I was 7 that I would be heading into the "older" segment of members. I am slowly building my own airplane and have a smile every time I have a moment to do so. That idea is only fostered by articles in Sport Aviation that discuss and showcase building, however basic it might be. If that ceases, as it has certainly been doing progressively over many years, this organization will cease to be much more than AOPA that originated with homebuilder roots "many years ago"!

I agree that much discussed very quickly here in a forum was once only contained in the publication. If however the highlights contained here regarding building are not also a prominent feature, and a core element, of the flagship EAA publication SPORT AVIATION the future is bleak. Young people will not dream of building an aircraft because the seed and an idea that building is possible are not adequately conveyed. Online release of the publications for digital reading on iPads and laptops, as well as the forums, is important to reach an audience that will increasingly find paper publications “quaint”. The roots of EAA are clear and unless we foster those as the future, EAA will cease to be relevant but simply another aviation organization.

propjock
10-30-2011, 10:18 AM
I remember my first convention as a 7 year old. We walked to a theater and watched a film, camped in tents and had ICE cold showers. I remember reading a Sport Aviation article by Tony Binglelis about building his Piel Emeruade while I hid inside my sleeping bag, in a tent trying to keep the magazine from getting wet during a pouring rain (tents were even literally blowing down the road that convention). I loved that convention; someday I would build my own airplane!

I never thought when I was 7 that I would be heading into the "older" segment of members. I am slowly building my own airplane and have a smile every time I have a moment to do so. That idea is only fostered by articles in Sport Aviation that discuss and showcase building, however basic it might be. If that ceases, as it has certainly been doing progressively over many years, this organization will cease to be much more than AOPA that originated with homebuilder roots "many years ago"!

I agree that much discussed very quickly here in a forum was once only contained in the publication. If however the highlights contained here regarding building are not also a prominent feature, and a core element, of the flagship EAA publication SPORT AVIATION the future is bleak. Young people will not dream of building an aircraft because the seed and an idea that building is possible are not adequately conveyed. Online release of the publications for digital reading on iPads and laptops, as well as the forums, is important to reach an audience that will increasingly find paper publications “quaint”. The roots of EAA are clear and unless we foster those as the future, EAA will cease to be relevant but simply another aviation organization.I agree 100%. The prevailing rationalization by the pinheads in Oshkosh seems to be that the mag should reflect the fact that fewer are building aircraft. The reason EAA was founded in the first place was to PROMOTE homebuilding. J Mac and his ilk just don't get this or care to.....

Zack Baughman
10-30-2011, 10:28 AM
pinheadsYou are more than welcome to complain about EAA to your heart's content - it's your right as a member, but when you start calling names you've crossed the line. Keep it clean folks! This has been a public service announcement from your friendly neighborhood moderator...

propjock
10-30-2011, 11:23 AM
You are more than welcome to complain about EAA to your heart's content - it's your right as a member, but when you start calling names you've crossed the line. Keep it clean folks! This has been a public service announcement from your friendly neighborhood moderator...Maybe there would be less compaining if the gentlemen in Oshkosh would do more listening and less "explaining."

CarlOrton
10-30-2011, 06:57 PM
Does the EAA Board and/or staff really listen to the members? I say that not to throw stones at anyone. IOW, as human beings, we regularly solicit input from others, yet we don't always use the information given to us.

Sometimes an organization really needs to have a gut-check from its members to find out the direction to follow. Several Chapters have done just that - after many years, does a Chapter membership prefer to continue/start more project activity, or change/stay as more of a social/educational interest.

Chad (I think it was Chad) mentioned that 2/3rds of the members want to have a more overall view of aviation. Not gonna argue that since I haven't seen the data, but I'd like to know how the data were gathered. As in, how many members are members only because they became members to get the AirVenture discount, vs the "core" members that are out there every day promoting EAA? So....if the 2/3rds "majority" were a result of a poll at AirVenture, could the data have been skewed?

So here's what I propose: Have National do a *serious* poll of its members. I don't care that that would include the AirVenture discount-seekers. Send out a postcard to all members. Allow either a postcard return with your vote, or provide an access code to vote online (one vote per member). PUBLISH the results; perhaps even have a "running tally" so users can view online.

I believe, and I'm willing to be corrected, that those who really care about the future of EAA will get out there and vote, whereas the casual members probably won't (any psych majors can dispute this assumption).

As a result, the Board should make some decisions. Now, getting back to the "do they listen" part of my post, it's very possible that even if a majority DON'T want turbine stories, the Board may have data that indicate that to remain financially viable, we HAVE to include turbine interests. If we that direction is orthogonal to the wishes of the membership, can't we vote-out the Board? Would we WANT to vote-out the Board (and I'm not saying we should) if we KNOW the data that drove their decision?

We just need some transparency, folks. I'd really like to have the innocent belief that core EAA staffers firmly believe in our roots.

Pat_Panzera
10-30-2011, 09:41 PM
<br>So here's what I propose: Have National do a *serious* poll of its members. I don't care that that would include the AirVenture discount-seekers. Send out a postcard to all members. Allow either a postcard return with your vote, or provide an access code to vote online (one vote per member). PUBLISH the results; perhaps even have a "running tally" so users can view online.<br>

I believe that it's important to also include those who are NOT EAA members, especially those who once were.

I think that its a highly valid point to consider that there are thousands who have joined the EAA just to get into AirVenture at a discount. If I'm not mistaken, one would have to be not very bright (I'm being kind here) to purchase a week-long pass and not get a membership. I believe that at that point, the membership is free- the cost savings from non-member fees compared to member fees pays for the membership... and then some.

So the idea that our organization is being tailored to those who only joined to get the discount is a little upsetting to say the least. How many of us would have gladly joined AARP at the age of 40 if it meant Disneyland tickets where discounted? Would that mean that AARP would need to change their organization to accommodate the wants and needs of 40 year olds? Or maybe a better analogy would be for AOPA to accommodate the specifics of homebuilders since many of us are members of that organization too.

...and then there are those who joined the EAA so they could also be a member of the local chapter to have a fun time with their airplane buddies, who don't give a rip about experimental aircraft- like the VAST MAJORITY of the members of my local chapter- these guys joined the EAA as-is, and now it's being tailored to them???

As the editor of EAA's Experimenter eNewsletter (http://www.eaa.org/experimenter) I monitor in excess of 120 various experimental aviation email groups (seeking out articles and keeping abreast of what homebuilders are doing), and it's disheartening to see how many active builders are NOT EAA members. It would be my guess that if we could get these builders, and wanna-bee builders, to come back to (or to otherwise join) EAA, our 1/3 number could easily rise to be in excess of 51%.

One last thing. It's probably a given that there won't be any changes to Sport Aviation in the near future- at least none that would strongly favor experimental aviation. The plan for 4-5 years in the making has been to create a general aviation publication, one that could be enjoyed by ALL members, and to relegate the specific information (experimental, ultralight, warbirds, etc.) to electronic newsletters. So if you are complaining that EAA has moved away from homebuilding (made manifest in Sport Aviation), and you are not subscribing to Experimenter, then maybe you should give it a try before solidifying your thoughts that EAA is no longer interested in experimental aviation.


Experimenter IS EAA's homebuilder's publication!

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/images/green_button.jpg (http://www.eaa.org/subscribe/)

Pat

Yellow Peril
10-30-2011, 10:00 PM
So the actual builders like myself get an online newsletter but Warbirds, Classic and general aviation get nice slick magazines. My membership expires 9/12. If EAA wants to cater to the general aviation public at the expense of the core membership so be it.

Pat_Panzera
10-31-2011, 12:48 AM
So the actual builders like myself get an online newsletter but Warbirds, Classic and general aviation get nice slick magazines. My membership expires 9/12. If EAA wants to cater to the general aviation public at the expense of the core membership so be it.

Actual builders still get a slick, award-wining magazine with not less than 25% of it's pages dedicated to the homebuilder, and countless other pages of general interest to your love of aviation. But you also get an electronic publication (Experimenter) with videos (have you seen the Hints for Homebuilders???), web links, specific builder information, as well as news that's in some cases, only hours old, not months old.

And if that's not enough, there is Light Plane World (http://www.eaa.org/lightplaneworld/) that features homebuilding and some store-bought ultralights and S-LSAs. Also available to you is Bits and Pieces (http://www.eaa.org/bitsandpieces/), a Canadian homebuilt electronic newsletter, as well as EAA's weekly newsletter e-Hotline (http://www.eaa.org/ehotline/)- that's packed with tons of homebuilder's news each week. Here's a full list of all the newsletters available: http://www.eaa.org/newsletters/

What you as an actual builder get is the best of both worlds- print and electronic. But remember, you are a pilot too, AND you like all things aviation related, so even if you feel that some of the articles that have appeared recently aren't relevant to you, they really are.

The amount of information available to the homebuilder, through EAA's various publications (print and electronic) would take a montly magazine the size of the Sears catalog to deliver it all in print each month... and the information contained in it would be three months old when it arrived.

Frank Giger
10-31-2011, 04:26 AM
it's disheartening to see how many active builders are NOT EAA members.

This is germane to the discussion in two ways:

First, the EAA is far more than SA magazine or Air Adventure. It's a huge resource pool of knowledge that has been vetted and checked for accuracy. Even if the local chapter has turned into a social club or isn't convenient to visit, the web resources are enough to warrant membership for the homebuilder.

When I talk to a homebuilder that isn't a member I point that out as well as the aviation advocacy the EAA does, which is important.

Second, the EAA really should pay attention to the public face it shows. I will probably never go to Air Adventure. It's too far, costs too much money, and features large crowds of people looking at displays for my liking. I understand why it's continuously pimped out - it's a huge revenue generator for the EAA - but at the same time sort of disheartening; one wonders sometimes whether Air Adventure exists to support the EAA or if the EAA exists to support Air Adventure.

When one can take the current issue of Flying and Sport Aviation, remove their covers and find them nearly indistiguishable from each other one wonders if the organizations aren't redundant.

I have found that homebuilders (in the main) eschew the corporationalism of aviation. We're individualists by nature - who else would take the proposition that they can build an airplane themselves that will be as good if not better than that built by a factory?

When SA concentrates on spam cans - especially those foreign to the typical GA pilot (let alone a homebuilder) - there's naturally going to be a sense of alienation....and presents a hurdle for someone talking up the important parts of the EAA.

Mike Switzer
10-31-2011, 05:59 AM
Pat, a lot of us have problems accessing the online content - not everyone has a super high speed connection. My office connection is comcast, but I am at the end of the line & it is pretty slow, My parents house is still on dialup, as are probably 50% of the EAA members I know (like most every member that lives in a rural area).

As far as people who join just to get a discount, I know several people who did that, either to fly in the B17 or to attend Oshkosh once, and after the first year they did not renew.

propjock
10-31-2011, 06:47 AM
So the actual builders like myself get an online newsletter but Warbirds, Classic and general aviation get nice slick magazines. My membership expires 9/12. If EAA wants to cater to the general aviation public at the expense of the core membership so be it.They don't care about their core members, they care about the money.

propjock
10-31-2011, 06:57 AM
You are more than welcome to complain about EAA to your heart's content - it's your right as a member, but when you start calling names you've crossed the line. Keep it clean folks! This has been a public service announcement from your friendly neighborhood moderator...By the way; save your outrage for someone who believes you. Check out "jobti's" posting in the Red Barn Forum. Apparently any language is O.K. as long as your not critical of the EAA. This forum is not that big so don't try to plead ignorance. EAA staff would do well to lower their collective noses before they "stall". :mad:

Zack Baughman
10-31-2011, 07:27 AM
By the way; save your outrage for someone who believes you. Check out "jobti's" posting in the Red Barn Forum. Apparently any language is O.K. as long as your not critical of the EAA. This forum is not that big so don't try to plead ignorance. EAA staff would do well to lower their collective noses before they "stall". :mad:

Just because I haven't seen jobti's post in the Red Barn does not excuse you calling EAA staff (or anyone else for that matter) names. Everybody else in this thread has managed to state their opinions and criticisms without resorting to name calling. I expect you to do the same. I have no problems with people being critical of EAA, as I said before, it's your right as a member. You crossed the line when you called people "pinheads."

propjock
10-31-2011, 07:53 AM
Just because I haven't seen jobti's post in the Red Barn does not excuse you calling EAA staff (or anyone else for that matter) names. Everybody else in this thread has managed to state their opinions and criticisms without resorting to name calling. I expect you to do the same. I have no problems with people being critical of EAA, as I said before, it's your right as a member. You crossed the line when you called people "pinheads."Yeah you already said that; my apologies for offending you.
But it does seem to me that this line you keep talking about resides wherever you need it at the time. I don't believe it is a coincidence that jobti's post was praising EAA staff.

Hiperbiper
10-31-2011, 08:52 AM
As was said above; Sport Aviation has always been about Homebuilders and EXP flyers until now. If it continues to turn into another Plane & Pilot or Flying clone then I for one don't want or need it...
That's the great thing about the World Wide Web; I can go get any information I need through Forums, Chat rooms and blogs, SA was a great perk because it came with the membership in EAA. If EAA wants go down the path marked "All Inclusive" then don't be surprised when you loose what used to be considered you core group and become another AOPA, magizine and all.

Chris

Hal Bryan
10-31-2011, 10:03 AM
Hi everybody -

This thread keeps bouncing back and forth between a valuable, impassioned, and absolutely necessary vehicle for member feedback about the magazine and EAA as a whole on the one hand, and a collection of personal attacks and conspiracy theory nonsense on the other.

Keep it useful and civil or you're gone, period.

Thanks -

Hal

Clarke Tate
10-31-2011, 10:16 AM
The nature of the EAA organization and information delivery and document structure is so much different today. When I was trying not to get my father’s Sport Aviation wet, while reading that Tony Bingleis Piel Emeraude article, there was essentially Sport Aviation and possibly a mimeographed typewritten chapter newsletter to disseminate information. Today the good thing is the availability of information, even here on various EAA websites. This unfortunately leads to a very fractured record of what EAA is and what it may be decades in the future. I am sure Tony Bingelis had no idea writing about building his Emeraude would have any effect on a 7 year old many decades later; call that unintended consequence more than an anticipated goal. Sport Aviation is unfortunately tasked with a primary responsibility as the record of what this organization is and what it aspires to be hopefully many decades into the future. The unintended consequences of not realizing this and structuring the content appropriately, with this in mind, I find rather unsettling.

Information exists in the diverse aspects of EAA content currently available, might this mean folding Vintage, Warbird, and Experimenter content, or key content, into the primary publication? I am sure those members wouldn’t probably care for that. Sport Aviation was more tangibly a publication like that though; from the EAA XP-51 article when I was younger to articles on building Paul’s Pober Pixie, to a little known aircraft called the Glenn Beet’s special GB-1 (a design created by the welder of Lou Stolp’s products for many years and an article that would now probably be buried in Experimenter). Sport Aviation was diverse with a tangible builder restorer angle and yes even keeping up with what Tom, Gene and the Pobereznys were doing. Those days have passed and the organization is much larger. This is also not to say though that expensive projects were not showcased then, this is aviation! This does not mean that Sport Aviation does not have the responsibility of conveying an attitude closer to that past. The future archive for EAA members to search for information will be Sport Aviation; this same information is what will foster the potential EAA members of the future.

Yellow Peril
10-31-2011, 10:16 AM
You're reasoning for the change in Sport Aviation is that so many members are GA oriented. I would guess that a huge percentage of Air Classics subscribers don't own a warbird but you don't see them changing the format. The core of EAA is homebuilts, vintage and classics, warbirds and light/ultralight. The magazine should reflect that not corporate turbo props.

Joda
10-31-2011, 12:27 PM
So the actual builders like myself get an online newsletter but Warbirds, Classic and general aviation get nice slick magazines.

You need to remember that the Vintage, Warbirds, and IAC magazines come to their members at an additional cost. Those are separate divisions within EAA, with separate dues structures and separate budgets. If you want to get those extra magazines, you pay more. They also have electronic newsletters that any EAA member can get free of charge, but the printed magazine comes at an extra cost.

Which brings to this discussion the question; do EAA members who are specifically interested in homebuilding think the time has come for a separate homebuilders division, with it's own printed magazine? Would you be willing to pay an extra cost for this magazine, just like the Vintage, Warbirds or IAC members do? This idea has been discussed from time to time, but there has never been much horsepower behind it internally. Maybe it needs to be discussed more, both internally and externally. I'm not saying I'm for or against the idea of a homebuilder division, but if you want a dedicated magazine this is the only way it's going to happen.

Food for thought!

Mike Switzer
10-31-2011, 12:58 PM
Which brings to this discussion the question; do EAA members who are specifically interested in homebuilding think the time has come for a separate homebuilders division, with it's own printed magazine? Would you be willing to pay an extra cost for this magazine, just like the Vintage, Warbirds or IAC members do?

I think I would, if the content was worth it. Personally, I prefer to read my magazines on paper, I spend too much time with a computer as it is. (plus paper magazines are easier to handle in the "reading room")

Bill Berson
10-31-2011, 01:37 PM
You need to remember that the Vintage, Warbirds, and IAC magazines come to their members at an additional cost. Those are separate divisions within EAA, with separate dues structures and separate budgets. If you want to get those extra magazines, you pay more. They also have electronic newsletters that any EAA member can get free of charge, but the printed magazine comes at an extra cost.

Which brings to this discussion the question; do EAA members who are specifically interested in homebuilding think the time has come for a separate homebuilders division, with it's own printed magazine? Would you be willing to pay an extra cost for this magazine, just like the Vintage, Warbirds or IAC members do? This idea has been discussed from time to time, but there has never been much horsepower behind it internally. Maybe it needs to be discussed more, both internally and externally. I'm not saying I'm for or against the idea of a homebuilder division, but if you want a dedicated magazine this is the only way it's going to happen.

Food for thought!

No, the homebuilt magazine should not cost extra.
Sport Aviation, the magazine that comes with membership, should be all about homebuilts only (or at least low cost airplanes). If EAA wants to get into corporate jets and turboprop, then start another division for those interests.

Mixing everything into Sport Aviation is the problem.
Bill

Clarke Tate
10-31-2011, 02:30 PM
You need to remember that the Vintage, Warbirds, and IAC magazines come to their members at an additional cost. Those are separate divisions within EAA, with separate dues structures and separate budgets. If you want to get those extra magazines, you pay more.

Which brings to this discussion the question; do EAA members who are specifically interested in homebuilding think the time has come for a separate homebuilders division, with it's own printed magazine? Food for thought!

I think that is in many ways what Experimenter was which is now only an electronic newsletter. I paid for that and Vintage as an additional subscription. I now pay for the additional Vintage magazine. The point I was trying to suggest,without saying it, is that it may be time for tie-ins to Vintage and a reborn Experimeter magazine. My only concern is that there is quite a bit of electronic content being managed by the organization already and that all takes money. The other more key concern for the organization is that Sport Aviation must reflect all divisions enough to act as both an archive of the EAA organization information and fostering the interest for the kind of future members we desire. This might be done with a basic article regarding representing each division in Sport Aviation and more in depth coverage in the individual division publications. This creates a printed archive of this organization as Sport Aviation has for decades and fosters what EAA is about with every issue while maintaing a division structure.

Pat_Panzera
10-31-2011, 03:13 PM
You need to remember that the Vintage, Warbirds, and IAC magazines come to their members at an additional cost. Those are separate divisions within EAA, with separate dues structures and separate budgets. If you want to get those extra magazines, you pay more. They also have electronic newsletters that any EAA member can get free of charge, but the printed magazine comes at an extra cost.

With the current circulation of Experimenter eNewsletter (nearly half that of KITPLANES), I honestly believe that it could easily become a print publication offered for free to EAA members as an alternative to Sport Aviation (as it was in the past) and it could be done at a profit. It would have the added benefit of not only appeasing those who are considering leaving EAA, but also bring back thousands who have left.

This could also positively affect the bottom line of producing Sport Aviation by way of reducing the piece-count of each issue.

BUT! There is a rather high number of people who prefer the electronic version and that number will only grow as us dinosaurs who prefer print dwindle in numbers. It's that thinking that brought about the electronic newsletters in the first place, with the hopes that it would be attractive to the younger generations who all have been "connected" since middle school and haven't picked up a printed publication in a dozen years.

Frank Giger
10-31-2011, 04:02 PM
Which brings to this discussion the question; do EAA members who are specifically interested in homebuilding think the time has come for a separate homebuilders division, with it's own printed magazine? Would you be willing to pay an extra cost for this magazine, just like the Vintage, Warbirds or IAC members do?

The day that homebuilding is just another side niche group within the EAA I'll think about letting my membership lapse.

I already have an AOPA membership, after all.

Mike Switzer
10-31-2011, 05:15 PM
While I somewhat agree with you guys that don't want to pay for a second magazine when the experimental stuff used to be in Sport Aviation, due to my internet speed i would like to see the experimenter stuff in print form - or at least in a pdf so I can download it in the background & print if I want to.

Pat_Panzera
10-31-2011, 06:12 PM
While I somewhat agree with you guys that don't want to pay for a second magazine when the experimental stuff used to be in Sport Aviation, due to my internet speed i would like to see the experimenter stuff in print form - or at least in a pdf so I can download it in the background & print if I want to.

Now THAT could happen and is something I'm working on.
It seems like the logical next step as more and more people would rather have it in a format that they can either print or read offline.

I'm experimenting with formatting it to look and feel more like a magazine, using the same tools I've played with for converting CONTACT! Magazine.

Here are some examples of what it could look like: www.issuu.com/Panzera (http://issuu.com/panzera)

Pat


(http://issuu.com/panzera)

Mike Switzer
10-31-2011, 06:50 PM
Pat something like that would be great. I actually like the format on the old issues of sport aviation once they are downloaded they are easy to read.

Kyle Boatright
10-31-2011, 07:20 PM
The day that homebuilding is just another side niche group within the EAA I'll think about letting my membership lapse.

I already have an AOPA membership, after all.

I suspect more than a few of the "core" EAA'ers will do the same thing. Why? Because they are being given the cold shoulder from HQ, because the magazine that championed the interesting part of aviation is being turned into a clone of another publication, and because they are chagrined at the the apparent direction of EAA away from what it was when they joined.

They won't be leaving the EAA, instead, they will take the view that the EAA has left them.

The EAA is setting itself up for a dumpster fire with its membership. Those hundred and something thousand members didn't sign up for AOPA, Part Deux. They signed up for something unique, and that something is being marginalized.

David Darnell
10-31-2011, 09:44 PM
Pat,
I liked the looks of that. Real easy to use IMO

Frank Giger
10-31-2011, 10:43 PM
I'm experimenting with formatting it to look and feel more like a magazine, using the same tools I've played with for converting CONTACT! Magazine.

That's outstanding, and a nice "split of the middle." That way I can print those parts that I need to carry with me to the build area (or for "private time.").

dewi8095
11-01-2011, 06:04 AM
No, the homebuilt magazine should not cost extra.
Sport Aviation, the magazine that comes with membership, should be all about homebuilts only (or at least low cost airplanes). If EAA wants to get into corporate jets and turboprop, then start another division for those interests.

Mixing everything into Sport Aviation is the problem.
Bill

This seems to be a logical approach to the problem. Has EAA's editorial board discussed keeping Sport Aviation all experimental/homebuilding and creating a General Aviation interest section?

Don

Clarke Tate
11-01-2011, 07:30 AM
I'm experimenting with formatting it to look and feel more like a magazine, using the same tools I've played with for converting CONTACT! Magazine.

Here are some examples of what it could look like: www.issuu.com/Panzera (http://issuu.com/panzera)

Pat



Hello Pat,
I am glad you stopped by! It just so happens that I came across these converted CONTACT issues, and read an article on the Corvair engine conversions in one of the issues, just this past Sunday. This is the kind of article that Sport Aviation should be made of! I fly a turbo-prop during the week and I really don't want to open a Sport Aviation and read about it on Sunday!

martymayes
11-01-2011, 11:48 AM
This seems to be a logical approach to the problem. Has EAA's editorial board discussed keeping Sport Aviation all experimental/homebuilding and creating a General Aviation interest section?

Don

Great idea Don. Put the how to fly articles, romance articles and flashy production airplane reviews in a pullout section. Every month I could remove that part, throw it in the trash and still have my Sport Aviation with homebuilts, aerobatics, warbirds and vintage airplanes.

dewi8095
11-02-2011, 06:15 AM
Great idea Don. Put the how to fly articles, romance articles and flashy production airplane reviews in a pullout section. Every month I could remove that part, throw it in the trash and still have my Sport Aviation with homebuilts, aerobatics, warbirds and vintage airplanes.

That would work. However, I was thinking more along the lines of an electronic newletter for the General Aviation folks and the hard-copy magazine for the experimental group. Seems like it backwards now with digital content in the Experimenter and Light Plane World and hard-copy stuff for GA in Sport Aviation. If digital is good enough for homebui8lders and ultralight flyers, it ought to be good enough for GA.

Don

Joda
11-02-2011, 06:20 PM
The day that homebuilding is just another side niche group within the EAA I'll think about letting my membership lapse.

I already have an AOPA membership, after all.

With all due respect Frank, AOPA won't do the job for you when it comes to amateur-built aircraft. AOPA is not your friend in that regard. Just read how they handle experimental aircraft in their Nall Report and you'll get a small taste of how they feel.

The bottom line is, if you want advocacy for experimental aircraft and sport aviation, you need to support EAA. They are the only voice that speaks sport aviation in a language that the FAA can understand. I've been there, I've done it, and now Chad will continue to do it. Nobody else but EAA will.

Frank Giger
11-02-2011, 11:14 PM
You're right for the present - but if the direction of the EAA is to highlight that homebuilders are only a third of the membership and interests (and therefore shouldn't be the main focus of the organization), then by extension advocating for homebuilders will be likewise de-prioritized.

Advocation is a money drain. When looking at the pool of resources, if homebuilding is "just another thing the EAA does" then it's just another thing to consider in the organization's docket, not a primary focus.

And it may come to where EAA might surrender their stances on homebuilts in order to enhance their efforts with the AOPA in regards to other legislation or regulation. As you point out, the organizations can work at cross purposes on some issues - though I'm sure in the vast majority of cases they are in agreement and work together amiacably.

I'll most likely keep my EAA membership current regardless as a "check the block" sort of thing even if the organization goes a different direction than a primary advocate for homebuilders.

Jim Hann
11-03-2011, 08:52 AM
Not to rain on anybody's parade but how long do y'all think print magazines will last? I'm hearing that newspapers are dying off fast, magazines aren't (can't be) far behind! I understand the direction issue, but I already don't read most of the "paper" and only get to the electrons later.

MJ et al, I'm not trying to put you out of work, but I think the writing is starting to become visible on the wall.

Jim
Lover of Sport Aviation, Experimenter, and other pubs including parts of Flying.

Hangar10
11-03-2011, 09:38 AM
Not to rain on anybody's parade but how long do y'all think print magazines will last? I'm hearing that newspapers are dying off fast, magazines aren't (can't be) far behind! I understand the direction issue, but I already don't read most of the "paper" and only get to the electrons later.

I'm with ya Jim... kind of. As the newsletter editor for our local chapter, I've made an effort to get our members to switch to an e-newsletter... a full color and printable PDF. A little more than half were on board with the idea, but many like the print copy. We are still printing just as many copies as before so that we can share our newsletter at events, but our postage usage is down about 60%. I can appreciate that some people like the hard copy... I receive hard copies of other newsletters that I might otherwise overlook if they got lost in my mailbox. In addition, when we have events I can't just hand out membership info, events calendar, contact list, etc. electronically. Oh, I could hand out cards with our chapter web and e-mail address, and we do... but that isn't nearly as effective as putting a newsletter in someone's hand. I think the same can be said for our magazine... I can't carry the Internet to coffee on Saturday mornings, or to a pancake breakfast or to a meeting. If there is something I want to share, I pretty much have to carry the print version along. Same goes for our Learn to Fly Day event, Young Eagles Day and other activities... it is nice to have print copies available for prospective members and families to look at. Yes, I know... Ipads and Iphones and Androids all do the web nicely, but our humble little chapter doesn't have a WiFi hotspot, and even though I'm only 39 years old, I don't have any of those gizmos and neither do many of our members. Like I said, I'm with ya... kind of. I believe that to do away with the print version would probably do away with some of our membership. I know that is the case at the local level, surely it's true at the national level as well.

One more BIG reason why I like print... I saw a post earlier that already stated this, but I spend enough time in front of a computer. Sometimes I just want to look at and read paper.

Can't park with our friends at OUR convention... high end market taking over OUR magazine... can't get a Chapters section on OUR forum... sigh. I am a relatively new member, but have been active in organizing and assisting with events since I walked in the door. Some of the things I've seen and read about are not what I thought EAA was about. Makes it a little hard to motivate people (and myself) with all this going on. I can see why so many chapters just turn into social clubs. Some days I just feel like saying "the heck with it" and going back to working on my airplane.

Jim Hann
11-04-2011, 08:21 AM
Mark,

Chapter 32 has done the same as you, with the resulting large reduction in postage. We may not print as many in the months where we don't have activities (i.e. winter) but we do use a lot as handouts. I don't expect handouts to go away at AV or other shows either.

What I like about the electronic versions is that I travel, and carrying 10 lbs. of magazines with me is really hard, even if I pitch as I go. The electrons on my computer don't weigh anything and I can reference them relatively easily. I do download before I leave because overseas internet at the hotel can run over USD$20 a day or more!

I haven't been able to fly into OSH since 1990, no money or time or airplane, depending on the year. I've parked in the exact same spot in Scholler every year since 2003 (except I missed 2009, our third was born premature) so the parking together hasn't affected me. Since I volunteer in FLO traffic I am familiar with the folks making requests for specific parking, but I haven't dealt with it on a first hand basis. Not to be argumentative, but our Chapter is a social club on one level. We have folks who will never build an airplane, or never fly a Young Eagle, but they enjoy coming to the meetings and hanging out with those who do. 32 also had monthly YE meets this year along with a fly out to Mexico, MO (we are in St. Louis) and a Chapter picture at the Chapter House at AV11. Heck, we had a tall guy with a Stearman flying Young Eagles last spring (his initials are RH)We've got numerous TC'd aircraft in the Chapter along with homebuilts (yep, lots of RVs in the batch!). We've had welding and fabric covering workshops, talks from our local CAF chapter and the fast shrinking group of WWII vets and others.

It only takes a few positive or negative people to really affect a Chapter, 32 was in fact left for dead only a couple years after it started but it survived, now in its 52 year. Good luck and don't give up!

Jim

Hangar10
11-04-2011, 10:35 AM
I hear ya on the portability of electronic media... that is a good point.

I'm not giving up! Chapter 10 is a great bunch. As long as they want to get together, I'll join em. Heck, most of the people I hang around are people that belong to our chapter... all of which are 10-40 years older than me, but we have fun.

I've not flown into OSH either, but I'm looking forward to it in the coming years. I just hope some of my friends will still be there... many of them have sworn it off after the treatment they recieved over the past few years. Yes, they understand the rain of 2010, but aside from that they have not been treated as they have in years past, so they are finished. Bummer for me and others from our group that enjoy their company (and EAA). I know that this has been covered thoroughly in another thread, so I'll not carry on... just wanted to clarify a couple of things that have me a little discouraged at times.

Another item... a Chapters section on the forums. As a member that gets involved with chapter functions and events, I don't think it would be too much to ask to have an area where chapter leaders could share ideas. Oh, I know, we have the chaptergram, but I can't ask it any questions. Heck, it's like pulling teeth just to get something published in there. We have a section for the different airplane groups, AirVenture, Marketplace and Hangar Talk for general rag chew... how about the chapters? Perhaps this section would not be as helpful as I think... I'm sure at first it would be pretty sparse, but what about the young new whipper snapper that comes along in a couple of years that wants to help, but is wondering how do these groups usually put on a Learn to Fly event anyway? Perhaps his group hasn't done any kind of event in several years, and maybe no one is really all that interested... but HE IS... wouldn't it be good to have a place that he could search for specifics, read others reports and ask questions of other motivated coordinators? I'll just tell you from my own experience... the answer is most definitely YES!

And the chapters office... WOW! I had a nice go around with them after our very succesful Learn to Fly Day event down here. I mean, national wants us to get busy promoting the sport, and then when we are done... write home about it! Yeah, well, without going into too many details I'll just say... won't bother to do that again.

Alright, I'm getting on a bit of a rant and it wasn't my intent to hijack this thread. I guess I should post this stuff elsewhere, but I doubt it would get much attention based on the response to other, more pressing issues.

Steve Stephenson
11-06-2011, 01:57 PM
Group, I would like to apologize for starting this thread. Somehow I missed the boat on the EAA Experimenter e-news letter. Now that I have found this and also Contact Magazine, I can see how
the newer Sport Aviation can benefit us all. I have and always will support the EAA.
Please accept my apology, I will try harder to keep up with the changing times.

Thanks
Steve Stephenson

Anymouse
11-06-2011, 02:56 PM
No worries. This is one of the more entertaining threads going right now!! :P

Chad Jensen
11-06-2011, 04:48 PM
Group, I would like to apologize for starting this thread. Somehow I missed the boat on the EAA Experimenter e-news letter. Now that I have found this and also Contact Magazine, I can see how the newer Sport Aviation can benefit us all. I have and always will support the EAA. Please accept my apology, I will try harder to keep up with the changing times.ThanksSteve StephensonNo apology necessary Steve...it's been a good discussion and a great opportunity for our lesser known publications to become known.

Clarke Tate
11-06-2011, 07:02 PM
No worries. This is one of the more entertaining threads going right now!! :P

Entertaining yes, but what are your thoughts regarding Sport Aviation content? Join the discussion!

PaulDow
11-06-2011, 09:04 PM
I've been away for a week here in dark, cold Connecticut. I think a problem with a paper Experimenter would be getting advertisers. Companies like Aircraft Spruce may reduce Sport Aviation space if they were asked to advertise in a magazine with redundant readers. Vintage and Warbirds are pretty light on ad pages already. I think the e-reader of Experimenter would be good. I had trouble with horizontal scrolling with the Contact example, but that was on a HP Touchpad which has many compatibility problems.
And to keep the pressure on...We've heard in the past that EAA members who are members of chapters are the most loyal and active members of the organization. Can we get an answer on why is a chapter section prohibited here?

Chad Jensen
11-06-2011, 09:24 PM
And to keep the pressure on...We've heard in the past that EAA members who are members of chapters are the most loyal and active members of the organization. Can we get an answer on why is a chapter section prohibited here?Prohibited? Why would a section like that be prohibited? This thread is the first time I've seen talk of a Chapters section...I think it's a great idea!

Hangar10
11-06-2011, 09:47 PM
I asked for a Chapters section on 365 and on the new forums. There was even a poll taken on what new Topics readers would like to see here http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?220-Next-Forum-Topic-Sections&p=1615#post1615

Flying Destinations/Events was the top vote getter while Chapters and Young Eagles were tied for second. I'm not sure why we can't have whatever Topics we might find useful, within reason of course. I know that we don't want to clutter up the list, but if we can't segregate and categorize information, it becomes lost and therefore useless. We'll probably be told that our request might be considered AFTER AirVenture. That seems to happen quite a bit too. Yes, I realize that AirVenture requires a lot of planning and resources, but chapter events are OUR events... we want to be able to plan too, and this is one of our tools. Bad enough that we had to suffer through 2+ years of 365, let's tune this format a bit and make the most of it! The flying/event season is winding down for most of us, but I would sure like to see a Chapters section before the end of the year so that we can better organize and share ideas in the 2012 season.

Chad Jensen
11-06-2011, 10:14 PM
365 was a dissaster, we all know that, and this forum was launched around AirVenture this year...we are learning with this forum as well, and it's much easier to make changes. I'm sure Hal will read this, but I'll talk to him tomorrow about adding forums. Thanks Mark!

Hangar10
11-06-2011, 10:22 PM
Great! Thanks Chad!

Anymouse
11-07-2011, 03:19 AM
Entertaining yes, but what are your thoughts regarding Sport Aviation content? Join the discussion!

I read the stuff that interests me. I flip past the stuff that doesn't.

Hal Bryan
11-07-2011, 08:16 AM
I'm sure Hal will read this, but I'll talk to him tomorrow about adding forums. Thanks Mark!

Rest assured, I read every post in every thread. :)

I posted a blanket "here are my thoughts on new forums" message a couple of months ago in response to some great ideas and suggestions that were coming up along those lines. Here's the link, just as an FYI for those reading this here:

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?295-New-forum-topic-suggestions
(http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?295-New-forum-topic-suggestions)
My thinking is still basically the same - I'd rather err on the side of too few than too many, and I don't think it's a good idea to add a bunch of new forums before we have significantly more people signed up and involved. I made an exception for the Marketplace, because we had a few posts starting to show up and they genuinely didn't fit anywhere else. While I haven't seen similar activity for Chapter-centric discussions, it's easy to see how it could, so I think a Chapters forum makes good sense.

I'll get that taken care of this week.

Zack Baughman
11-07-2011, 08:59 AM
Hal works very quickly!

http://eaaforums.org/forumdisplay.php?16-EAA-Chapters

Hal Bryan
11-07-2011, 09:05 AM
Hal works very quickly!

http://eaaforums.org/forumdisplay.php?16-EAA-Chapters

Constantly under-promise and very occasionally over-deliver, that's my motto. ;)

Jim Hann
11-07-2011, 09:09 AM
While I haven't seen similar activity for Chapter-centric discussions, it's easy to see how it could, so I think a Chapters forum makes good sense.

Great to see the responsiveness Hal! Will Brenda Anderson (I think) be watching for Chapter talk activity? I will let my Chapter's officer's know that this section is here now, not sure they have checked in on the new forums yet!

Jim

Hangar10
11-07-2011, 09:29 AM
Thanks Hal! Honestly, I check out the boards almost every day, but somehow I missed your post on this subject... I appreciate your approach. I hope that Chapter organizers and members will make use of the new section. I'll try to do my part.

Thank again!

PaulDow
11-07-2011, 12:46 PM
Prohibited? Why would a section like that be prohibited? This thread is the first time I've seen talk of a Chapters section...I think it's a great idea!
I realize I used a strong word, but I figured that since the chapter section didn't happen (until today) that someone had said "no" somewhere along the line. It did seem to help stir the pot though. ;)

Thanks Hal. It looks like I'm going to be volunteered to be chapter president next year, but we've got a ton of organizational issues that threaten our continued operation. Hopefully I can get some good discussions going that can help. First though is going back out with the chain saw.

Hal Bryan
11-07-2011, 01:39 PM
Will Brenda Anderson (I think) be watching for Chapter talk activity?

Jim - yep! In fact she's been "drafted" into my virtual team of forum moderators, so look out! ;)

Frank Giger
11-08-2011, 04:29 AM
I hope like heck they're paying you and the EAA forum minions well - the goodwill and good faith efforts are precisely what will keep the organization relevant and dynamic.

Hal Bryan
11-08-2011, 08:59 AM
Thanks for that, Frank, you made my morning. It might sound clichéd, but it's our privilege to serve EAA's membership.

And, in the midst of this spirited dialogue about the magazine and even the organization as a whole, I have to say it's really nice to be able to step in with a quick and easy fix to at least one issue.

sdilullo
11-09-2011, 09:41 AM
And times have changed. Face it, the way experimental aviation works has changed too. Today you can buy a "kit plane" that was built by a professional builder. Or you can buy a kit that includes a trip to an assembly factory, in which you barely assist in the building of said aircraft.

Like it or not, the demographics have changed within the organization. They in no way favor the inclusion of young people. Often times, being one of the youngest people in the forum, I feel like the older crowd wants nothing to do with the young people, unless they think exactly alike. This is one of the main reasons I've never become a chapter member. I've been to a few different chapter events, and never once have felt welcome at my age.

Perhaps its time for EAA to consider the future, or soon there will be no EAA.

Just wanted to jump in and say, as a fellow young person, I feel you on this.

Although I do belong to a local chapter and they're a nice group of guys (I help out with out annual fly-in, pancake breakfast, and Young Eagle rallies) it's not exactly a young man's club, either. I really wish there were more groups/resources for younger folks like us.

I'm not even all that interested in homebuilding (right now) but a group of similarly-aged people who don't have as much money, etc. to put into flying could be quite valuable.

Mike Switzer
11-09-2011, 09:47 AM
it's not exactly a young man's club, either. I really wish there were more groups/resources for younger folks like us.

I'm 45 now, and have been a member of our flying club since 1996 - in all that time I have always been the youngest member to regularly attend meetings, which I don't really understand as we have some younger members, they just don't participate in anything.

kscessnadriver
11-10-2011, 08:39 AM
I'm 45 now, and have been a member of our flying club since 1996 - in all that time I have always been the youngest member to regularly attend meetings, which I don't really understand as we have some younger members, they just don't participate in anything.

I really think it's a 2 way street. If you could get a few young people to show up, I don't doubt you could boost the number of younger members who would attend chapter meetings. However, one of the big issues I see (not to step on any toes) is that there is a vast cultural difference between people under the age of 30 today and those over the age of say 50. That doesn't help the situation at all, in my opinion.

Barnstorm
11-10-2011, 10:23 AM
I'm 45 now, and have been a member of our flying club since 1996 - in all that time I have always been the youngest member to regularly attend meetings, which I don't really understand as we have some younger members, they just don't participate in anything.

No disrespect to Young Eagles, but what I think we really need is "Thirty Something Eagles".

We need to target people that can afford to learn to fly an LSA and have the common media-induced misconceptions about flying small aircraft that can be dispelled with a quick introduction to sport flying.

.

Hal Bryan
11-10-2011, 10:36 AM
No disrespect to Young Eagles, but what I think we really need is "Thirty Something Eagles".

We need to target people that can afford to learn to fly an LSA and have the common media-induced misconceptions about flying small aircraft that can be dispelled with a quick introduction to sport flying.

.

Ask and ye shall receive! :)

http://www.eaa.org/news/2011/2011-08-18_adult_eagles.asp

Robert Gerald Clark
11-10-2011, 11:22 AM
I agree, when I joined many years ago it was all about home built aircraft, warbirds and antique aircraft. I sure wish it would go back to that. IO have built 4 aircraft and at age 76 I have started my last project, a 2/3 replica of a Ryan 1937 Ryan ST.

Barnstorm
11-10-2011, 11:29 AM
Ask and ye shall receive! :)

http://www.eaa.org/news/2011/2011-08-18_adult_eagles.asp

Fantastic!

If my local chapter (174) supports this program, I will participate.

.

Hangar10
11-10-2011, 11:29 AM
Ask and ye shall receive! :)

http://www.eaa.org/news/2011/2011-08-18_adult_eagles.asp

There we go!

Earlier this year our chapter participated in Learn to Fly Day and were surprised with the turn out. Yes, we did a fair amount of advertising, but none the less there seems to be an genuine interest with the adults in and around our community. Even if they don't pick up the flight training manual right away, I'm sure all of them that flew with us will remember it forever. Never know when the urge will strike.

Speaking of Learn to Fly Day... will this be taking place of that event? What time of the year does EAA plan to hold this event? Learn to Fly day being in May, followed by Young Eagles in June... just wondering how many of these types of events will be scheduled in close sucession. Honestly, it takes a bit of work (and expense) to put on a decent event, so spreading them out a bit would be appreciated. The middle of summer would not be preferred, especially in the hot southern states... and the fall is jamed with fly-in activity. Hmm.

I know, there are only so many weekends in the year, but we have to consider people's budgets (the pilots and their fuel) as well as the volunteer support within the chapters. Don't want to burn everyone out.

Great idea on the new Eagles program!

Hangar10
11-10-2011, 11:31 AM
Fantastic!

If my local chapter (174) supports this program, I will participate.

.

Barnstorm... Why do YOU support this program and make sure your chapter follows suit! ;)

Barnstorm
11-10-2011, 11:38 AM
I agree, when I joined many years ago it was all about home built aircraft, warbirds and antique aircraft. I sure wish it would go back to that. IO have built 4 aircraft and at age 76 I have started my last project, a 2/3 replica of a Ryan 1937 Ryan ST.

Robert,
While I have built and done a great deal of work on aircraft, I am foremost a PILOT and if I had the money I would NEVER turn a wrench on an aircraft again.

This issue (builders vs Pilots) has been a struggle in some of the local EAA chapters. Builders complain that not enough is done to teach building and to encourage building and the pilots complain that not enough flying is done and don't to just sit around TALKING about aircraft but want to fly them.

IMHO, what is needed is a REALITY CHECK.

Our hobby no longer has the numbers to support dividing into smaller and smaller subcultures that fail to work together.

We must look for and exploit our COMMON interests for our sport to survive and grow again.

Builders, Pilots, Mechanics, Sport Pilots, GA pilots, Commercial Pilots, FBOs, R/C Pilots, Rotorcraft Pilots, Glider Pilots every subculture has to come TOGETHER.

I know it is a terrible thing to ask people to page past stories that are not focused in on our individual interests but we must follow the numbers.

I hope all of us are making some effort to popularize our sport and dispel the media-induced misconceptions about small aircraft.

.

Barnstorm
11-10-2011, 11:41 AM
Barnstorm... Why do YOU support this program and make sure your chapter follows suit! ;)

I already do, in my own way. I have given over 20 free rides to adults this year and if we get a few warm days I might be able to do some more!

.

Hangar10
11-10-2011, 11:56 AM
I already do, in my own way. I have given over 20 free rides to adults this year and if we get a few warm days I might be able to do some more!

.

That's great! I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that you weren't already playing an active role. Just trying to suggest that sometimes it only takes someone to step up and drive the issue, provide some organization and ask for help. If you are doing that already, then I'm sure you can get your chapter involved in some manner.

Hal Bryan
11-10-2011, 12:03 PM
Speaking of Learn to Fly Day... will this be taking place of that event? What time of the year does EAA plan to hold this event?

The new "Young Eagles for Adults" (actual name TBD / TBA) isn't an event, rather it's a program. My semi-educated guess is that Learn to Fly Day would be a logical showcase for the new program, but the intent is to enable adults to get rides under the same insurance protection, etc., as with Young Eagles. Given that, we'd expect to see flights taking place at Chapter events, for example, year-round.

Hangar10
11-10-2011, 12:10 PM
The new "Young Eagles for Adults" (actual name TBD / TBA) isn't an event, rather it's a program. My semi-educated guess is that Learn to Fly Day would be a logical showcase for the new program, but the intent is to enable adults to get rides under the same insurance protection, etc., as with Young Eagles. Given that, we'd expect to see flights taking place at Chapter events, for example, year-round.

Alright then, that sounds good. Learn to Fly Day was a lot of fun.

Barnstorm
11-10-2011, 12:14 PM
The new "Young Eagles for Adults" (actual name TBD / TBA) isn't an event, rather it's a program. My semi-educated guess is that Learn to Fly Day would be a logical showcase for the new program, but the intent is to enable adults to get rides under the same insurance protection, etc., as with Young Eagles. Given that, we'd expect to see flights taking place at Chapter events, for example, year-round.

I don't think I can afford to give free digital copies of my book to the "old eagles" ;) like I do for Young Eagles but if anyone who starts up this program for your local chapter I will provide you with 50% off coupons as long as I can afford to do so.

.http://www.youcanaffordtobeapilot.com/Medium Cover Jpeg.jpg

Alan Carroll
11-11-2011, 10:44 AM
Just looked at the current SA issue with the TBM850 article. I completely appreciate that EAA is a diverse organization, not everyone is a homebuilder, etc., but a TBM850? How is this even remotely related to Sport Aviation? Even it it were, the article itself amounts to little more than extended ad copy written on behalf of Daher-Socata (who also have a paid ad in the same issue).

This type of article has long been a fixture at Flying Magazine, a for-profit venture that has been published by a series of different companies over the years. For better or worse it appears that EAA is taking a similarly commercial turn with Sport Aviation.

CarlOrton
11-11-2011, 11:12 AM
*snip* Even it it were, the article itself amounts to little more than extended ad copy written on behalf of Daher-Socata (who also have a paid ad in the same issue). *snip*

Well, Daher-Socata *did* pay for one heckuva fireworks show at the end of this year's Saturday night airshow. One of the best I've seen. Not sticking up for them, but only that I can appreciate the payback that EAA might have extended. And I'm saying "might" because I do not know the facts.

Dave Stadt
11-11-2011, 03:07 PM
Just looked at the current SA issue with the TBM850 article. I completely appreciate that EAA is a diverse organization, not everyone is a homebuilder, etc., but a TBM850? How is this even remotely related to Sport Aviation? Even it it were, the article itself amounts to little more than extended ad copy written on behalf of Daher-Socata (who also have a paid ad in the same issue).

This type of article has long been a fixture at Flying Magazine, a for-profit venture that has been published by a series of different companies over the years. For better or worse it appears that EAA is taking a similarly commercial turn with Sport Aviation.

I have no interest in this type of plane but don't mind reading about them every once in a while. If I don't want to read it I flip a few pages and it is a dead issue.

Mike M
11-11-2011, 06:29 PM
Just looked at the current SA issue with the TBM850 article. I completely appreciate that EAA is a diverse organization, not everyone is a homebuilder, etc., but a TBM850? How is this even remotely related to Sport Aviation? Even it it were, the article itself amounts to little more than extended ad copy written on behalf of Daher-Socata (who also have a paid ad in the same issue).

This type of article has long been a fixture at Flying Magazine, a for-profit venture that has been published by a series of different companies over the years. For better or worse it appears that EAA is taking a similarly commercial turn with Sport Aviation.

couple months back, i whined about this coming. lots of folks said not gonna happen. this month we have a multipage advertisement for a factory-built turboprop and a pilot report on a certificated helicopter - and not a very good pirep at that. i'm interested in antique and classic aircraft, yes, but geepers, tell us about the specific one - not a generic "this is how a helicopter works" article. but beyond my myopic reaction, how did j'all enjoy the rest of the latest issue of FLYING/AOPAPILOT/BUSINESS&COMMERCIAL AVIATION (oh, yeah, sport aviation)? something about leopards and spots comes to mind right 'bout here.

dewi8095
11-12-2011, 07:06 AM
Previously on this thread I noted that the EAA, as an organization, needed to satisfy it majority membership which now appears to be General Aviation. In view of the changes in Sport Aviation and some other clues, I have the feeling that the goal of the new leadership is to make EAA more "mainstream" in its public image. Ultralighters have been successfully marginalized and relegated to digital newsletter formats and the homebuilders/experimenters are on the way. If the trend continues, we may see within 5 years or so a name change to something like the SPA or RAA (Sport Pilots Association or Recreational Pilots Association). This possibillity, however, doesn't make me want to discontinue my membership. I still appreciate the good things EAA does for homebuilding and aviation in general. And besides, we need to "stay tuned" to see if Lane and Connor make it to Boston in the next issue.

Don

Alan Carroll
11-12-2011, 08:10 AM
Its perhaps worth noting that although the audience for Sport Aviation may be broadening, EAA is still a non-profit corporation supported by thousands of volunteers. Most of these people will be lucky to ever get a ride in a TB850, much less own one. If EAA continues to shift focus from sport aircraft to business aircraft will they still be able to attract the volunteers who keep it afloat?

David Darnell
11-12-2011, 08:15 AM
I just thought it to be a sad commentary on the state of the EAA & SA when I had to go buy the latest of KITPLANES to read about homebuilts...