kneeboards: worth it or not?

[Payton009]

I talked to my instructor about kneeboards the other day and his opinion is that they are to bulky to be very handy. On the other hand, he knows of others who swear by them. So I guess my question here is what are everybody's opinions on using them in the cockpit? Does anyone have any other substitutes that work just as good or better?

[whatevrworks]

I talked to my instructor about kneeboards the other day and his opinion is that they are to bulky to be very handy. On the other hand, he knows of others who swear by them. So I guess my question here is what are everybody's opinions on using them in the cockpit? Does anyone have any other substitutes that work just as good or better?

The first question would be what kind of flying are you doing? For VFR flying I use Foreflight and really have no need for a kneeboard, but for IFR flying I always have the small basic metal kneeboard strapped to my leg with some paper on it to copy clearance, routings and other pertinent information (changing field tanks, fuel burn, gathering info for PIREPS before getting on the radio). I still use the iPad for IFR charts and plates so really the board is just for notes. I have tried some of the bulkier kneeboards and hate them, they have a lot of storage but on long flights get very annoying. I own my aircraft so I also have other pockets in the plane to stash things compared to a renter who may want to keep all the charts in one place so they are not forgotten in the plane after the flight.


dave

[R172K]

I found that I couldn't hold the yoke full aft with the kneeboard strapped to my knee, so I use the clipboard part without the extra pockets and flaps. Works well enough.

[mikw53]

I find it invaluable and all my flying is VFR.I bought one with the 7 ring plastic sleeves to which I can add the airport diagrams of the places i'm going too on each trip
and I have also added all the emergency procedures I can run into and placed them in the plastic sleeves also.The writing pad is what it is, useful when you need it.

[steveinindy]

For radio notes, etc, I find that a six-inch wide strip of white cloth bandage tape on my right pant leg works really well especially if you use a marker to write on it (a double layer of tape will help to minimize the small chance of it soaking through the pants below). It's a trick I learned while working in ICUs and ERs. It's also a lot cheaper than a knee board. Since I very seldom ever fly alone, I usually just keep a chart binder like mikw53 suggested for all the approach charts, etc and make my cohort handle it (or vice versa)

[Frank Giger]

I use a small (5x8") kneeboard that I picked up somewhere years ago that works great. It's aluminum and has a velcro strap at the back and a really hefty clip spring a the top.

I put a little square of paper at the bottom of it with likely airfield info (freqs, runway alignments, distances) as a crib sheet; lift the sectional and there they are!

It doesn't get in the way of the stick or carb heat in the Champ, and since I go slow the smaller size of the folded sectional isn't a problem. ;)

[FlyingRon]

I used a kneeboard while actually getting my instrument rating, but frankly it just gets in the way. If I'm flying by myself, I just throw my flight plan and a small pad on the right seat. If I'm flying with my wife, she holds it.

[bsdunek]

Like Frank, I also have a small kneeboard I got about 45 years ago. I think it is APR brand which is long gone. I keep my chart, airport info., etc. on it when I fly. I find it very handy. As R172K mentioned, make sure it doesn't interfear with control movement.

[Joe LaMantia]

I have a "Sporty's" 9"x 6" Aluminum board it has a side attach plate for mounting a "Gripmatic" clamp. The "clamp" is plastic and can be used to hold a portable GPS or radio. I used it quite a bit when I flew a C-150 with a handheld GPS about 15 years ago. It has been sitting in my flight bag taking up space until a couple of weeks ago. I am trying to get a Garmin Pilot III up and running in our club Tri-Pacer and I thought it would be a helpful tool. I discovered that my right leg lines up with the throttle and the kneeboard with the GPS mounted gets in the way. I, like Frank, am a VFR guy and I have a small 3-ring binder that I usually set-up with airport diagrams and such. Flying VFR we really should be looking out the windows rather then our laps, so I will pick-up and yoke mount if I can get the antenna to actually see and track.

Joe
:cool:

[WLIU]

I will suggest that depending on your aircraft, you may not want a yoke mount. You might find A) you can feel the weight of the unit when you move the controls, and B) writing makes you push nose down. I hate both. You may or may not be bothered. Borrow a friends yoke mount and take it for a test flight before you spend $$.

I flew old airplanes for years, and I fly a Pitts that has no floor to put charts and books on. A knee board keeps me organized. Most of the knee boards that Sporty's sells look better than they perform. The basic USAF one (cordura clip board and a strap) will take care of 99% of what you need. it works for the F-22 guys.

What you ought to give a lot of thought to is how you organize the tools you have in the cockpit. Do you just throw stuff on the other seat or the floor and start the engine? If you do and you then have to paw through the pile to get the freq's you need and the engine power settings you want, then no knee board is going to make life enough easier. You need to package up the charts and other info in an orderly sequence for a knee board to work.

I will note that a great way to get the leans or vertigo during IFR flight is to look at the floor next to your seat and reach down for something. Doesn't happen every time, but when it does, its an adventure.

My Pitts has no floor. If I drop a pencil that is the last I see of it until I land. Charts that slip back into the tail are also useless. Cockpit organization is a wonderful thing in that environment.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Mike M]

what are everybody's opinions on using them in the cockpit? Does anyone have any other substitutes that work just as good or better?

i think they're handy.

thank y'all for buying me my first kneeboard. and the second. and the third. they were all the same, USN-issued. had a big c-cell battery compartment and a light with red/clear selectable lens. first one, light broke off after just a couple of months. second one, switch broke after about three months, light stayed on, drained batteries (i didn't notice it had stayed on) and they leaked all through my helmet bag. third one, light broke off after a month. so i pulled off the battery compartment/light mount, riveted on a thumb tab, reinstalled the pen keeper spring, and i've used it that way since '72. oh, one other change, when the foam wore off the back i put on a couple wide strips of loop-side stickybacked velcro to give some airspace to keep my leg from sweating under it. i've replaced the strap twice. don't use one like this as issued with the latch, it won't break loose if you get caught up during emergency egress. just velcro the strap together. it's handy for helos and some other stick-controlled aircraft because it raises my wrist off my knee just the right amount to reduce fatigue.

for my mustang II, i needed a thinner, shorter, narrower one. i cut a scrap piece of aluminum to size i wanted, folded the long edges down and back into triangles to hold it on my knee, riveted on a paper clamp from the office store, mounted a pen keeper spring above the clamp, put loop velcro on the back, mounted a strap. made the whole thing out of junk-drawer stuff, basically, and it does exactly what store-bought ones do plus it's exactly the right size, shape, and thickness.

oh, almost forgot. do you need lights on one? most of the time no. but if you think you do, go to harbor freight or walmart, buy a nice little led light, and mount it on the board with velcro or something. that way it will be where YOU want it, not where the designer wanted it, and you can replace it when it breaks without major redesign.

your mileage may vary.

[Mike M]

six-inch wide strip of white cloth bandage tape on my right pant leg

flight med crews often do that, works great. don't drop their notes or have them blow away.

[Joe LaMantia]

Just a quick note for "WLIU", I went to the knee board after using a yoke mount in the C-150 for the very reasons you described. After gaining experience with sorting through stuff on the seat and floor I took some advice given by a Dick Collins video and got the 3-ring trip binder which works very well. Later I bought a clear plastic chart holder which works pretty well once you learn how to fold the chart properly. I've been flying a TriPacer for the past few years and it has a Garmin "Pilot III" mounted on top of the panel, very hard to read there and almost impossible to actually use. I bought an antenna with a long lead that allows me to move the GPS unit around the cockpit, so I just dug the old knee board out of the flight bag. I have had great success using the Pilot III while sitting in my Dodge Van parked next to the airport ramp but no luck in tracking when it's in the airplane. I'm going to try moving the antenna about the cabin tomorrow if the weather forecast holds. If this doesn't work I will simply return to ignoring the device and continue flying it the same way I've done for the last few years. The technology is nice, but not really needed for the kind of flying done in a TriPacer.

Joe
:cool:

[steveinindy]

flight med crews often do that, works great. don't drop their notes or have them blow away.

That's what I do when I'm in the back as glorified cargo too. ;) It's the only thing I do clinically these days.

[Dudley Henriques]

I talked to my instructor about kneeboards the other day and his opinion is that they are to bulky to be very handy. On the other hand, he knows of others who swear by them. So I guess my question here is what are everybody's opinions on using them in the cockpit? Does anyone have any other substitutes that work just as good or better?

I have never used kneeboards and have been vocally opposed to them for many years. It is highly suspected that a kneeboard caused the death of Hoof Proudfoot during a P38 demonstration in the UK.
I've done tests with several kneeboards. In aircraft equipped with a yoke we discovered that during flare in several aircraft, it was possible to have a kneeboard interfere with both elevator and aileron control input.
In my opinion, NOT a safe accessory.
Naturally opinion varies on the issue.

Fly safe,
Dudley Henriques

[Bob Dingley]

I was given my first kneeboard in flight school and obediently used it. Fast fwd a few years and over in SE Asia, every one carried china markers and made notes on the windshield. In case of capture, you could kick out the windshield and destroy all those classified freqs and coords. Crew chiefs hated this practice.

Later, on stateside missions and in GA aircraft, I got a supply of those SS bankers clips from the office supply store and clipped charts,etc to the log book and tossed it up on the glare shield. It was a handy writing desk. I continued this in commercial aviation and in my GA planes. I clipped to the POH. When paper work got heavier with Customs stuff and manifests, my fellow pilots showed up with clipboards that they got at truck stops. The kind that open up and you can store all your paper, etc that you pick up during the day.

When moving maps showed up, I realized that I had been flying a long time as lost as last year's Easter egg. I then kept my charts in the flight bag (with Jepp plates clipped with it and rarely took them out.

I eventually got one of those Sporty's Tri-folds and even used it some. Mostly on check rides. I still have one of those old time kneeboards with built in lamp. Battery holder all chewed up. The BEST solution is one of those fold away chart holders that bolt on the side of the cockpit The light is powered by the A/C 28V. I have an unlighted one out in my shop as we speak waiting for an airframe to put it in.

[Dudley Henriques]

I was given my first kneeboard in flight school and obediently used it. Fast fwd a few years and over in SE Asia, every one carried china markers and made notes on the windshield. In case of capture, you could kick out the windshield and destroy all those classified freqs and coords. Crew chiefs hated this practice.

Later, on stateside missions and in GA aircraft, I got a supply of those SS bankers clips from the office supply store and clipped charts,etc to the log book and tossed it up on the glare shield. It was a handy writing desk. I continued this in commercial aviation and in my GA planes. I clipped to the POH. When paper work got heavier with Customs stuff and manifests, my fellow pilots showed up with clipboards that they got at truck stops. The kind that open up and you can store all your paper, etc that you pick up during the day.

When moving maps showed up, I realized that I had been flying a long time as lost as last year's Easter egg. I then kept my charts in the flight bag (with Jepp plates clipped with it and rarely took them out.

I eventually got one of those Sporty's Tri-folds and even used it some. Mostly on check rides. I still have one of those old time kneeboards with built in lamp. Battery holder all chewed up. The BEST solution is one of those fold away chart holders that bolt on the side of the cockpit The light is powered by the A/C 28V. I have an unlighted one out in my shop as we speak waiting for an airframe to put it in.

I was a back of the hand guy :-) I wrote headings, altitudes, frequencies, etc on the back of my throttle hand with marker or in ink.
Prop fighters are the absolute worst for room to stuff things. Jets the same as I'm sure you remember. :-))

[Bob Dingley]

That is a noble, practical practice, Dudley. However, I would avoid doing it in sight of TV crews. Sarah Pallin did and was severely beat up by the media. Ah, they are SUCH simple people. LOL

[Dudley Henriques]

that is a noble, practical practice, dudley. However, i would avoid doing it in sight of tv crews. Sarah pallin did and was severely beat up by the media. Ah, they are such simple people. Lol

:-))
dh

[Brett]

I was getting ready to post this and it is very coincidental that bob mentioned Sarah Palin. Flying the UH-60 I would use the kneeboard all the time, but I also kept a grease pencil handy and would sometimes write notes on the side window. I did this on a training flight back in early 08 when we were diverted to carry governor Palin and the local commanding general to view a new range. She actually asked after getting in what the numbers in the window were.

I always have a notepad and several fat-leaded pencils in the airplane, but only use the kneeboard in the helicopter. Flying the OH-58 now with the doors off requires that I put the notepad on the kneeboard with the binding toward my lap and the loose ends of the paper toward the clip to keep the paper from blowing around. As to lights, I have a "lip light" zip tied to the kneeboard clip shining down across the paper. Works great to illuminate the paper without the effect of light reflecting off the paper all over the cockpit. Just my $.02 and your results may vary.

Brett

[steveinindy]

one carried china markers and made notes on the windshield. In case of capture, you could kick out the windshield and destroy all those classified freqs and coords.

Is it bad that I kind of want to start doing that once I get my own aircraft? I have completely forgotten about the old airborne forward observer practice of doing that.


That is a noble, practical practice, Dudley. However, I would avoid doing it in sight of TV crews. Sarah Pallin did and was severely beat up by the media.

One would expect that for a simple speech where you're not changing radios, etc you shouldn't have to resort to such measures. Speaking as someone who gets paid to speak publicly quite frequently (I still teach health care providers as well as forensic professionals to make extra cash to feed my addiction to flying), perception is reality and if you know you can't stay on point from your own memory, you either do it using a Powerpoint (guilty as charged here...) or you put an outline on a piece of paper. Writing something on the back of your hand in such a setting is a good way to make yourself look like you may not being honest or that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.


Ah, they are SUCH simple people.

I think that assessment cuts both ways in case of Mrs. Palin (and a lot of other politicians). She's not my first choice for a politician largely because she comes across as very ditzy and that perception by a large number of folks (including a good number of my fellow Republicans) probably cost McCain the election last time around. Probably a fun lady to hang around and she's honestly probably not as stupid as she comes across as being with but she gives the public an impression of not being the sharpest tool. As I said earlier, perception is reality in such affairs as politics.

[Brett]

I apologize if, in my first post, I was guilty of creeping this thread. I really just wanted to include some anecdotal information in my discussion of when I do and don't use the kneeboard.

As an addition, I have three flaps that hang off the front of the kneeboard which keep often used information. I flip those over the writing pad portion when necessary. This is very helpful for flying a single pilot helicopter with no effective trim. None of it has been necessary for me in the airplane.

Brett

[Cary]

I made my first kneeboard, from a small clipboard and an elastic strap, plus a little bit of hanger wire. After some 36 years, that got so beat up that it finally started looking grossly unprofessional, so 3 years ago I spent $14 on a Sporty's aluminum version complete with all sorts of IFR information on it--looks better, but doesn't work better.

A relatively smallish kneeboard with a pad of plain paper is very handy, for marking down frequencies, time that tanks were switched, and clearances. I have yet to fly in a SE GA airplane where it gets in the way, although with some tighter cockpits, I've pushed it over to the side of my leg just before landing, just so it won't be bumped. It certainly doesn't interfere with control movement, however.

If I'm just flying around the pattern, I don't strap it on, but if I'm going anywhere, I do, whether I expect to use it or not. I can tuck charts under the paper pad or between the kneeboard and my leg, there's a pencil clip on it, and generally it's a pretty cheap and useful tool.

So you pay your money and make your choice, or not.

Cary

[steve]

I bought the "Pilots Pal" kneeboard way back in '94. I'm an average size guy but the thing just got in the way in every plane I flew or owned except the 182s I flew as a CAP member. It was handy to have when copying clearances operating out of Salt Lake City Int'l. Bravo Airspace.
Fly VFR cross country UT to WI to FL in my RV9A? Never even packed the kneeboard.

[Frank Giger]

What I'm reading is that the right kneeboard is a helpful reference but the wrong kneeboard is useless!

I actually tested to see if mine would get in the way by wearing it while driving my truck; it didn't, as it's pretty small and not much wider and shorter than my thigh. It's fine because I fly a Champ (no seat to the side, stick instead of yoke) and strictly VFR - I just need a slice of the sectional, a few frequencies (and oh, I don't fly into controlled airspace so there's only two freqs per airfield to keep track of), and the barest of airport info (runway orientation).

I think my Car Test is a good way of testing a kneeboard. If it is irritating while driving to the grocery store (or the airport) it will probably be a huge PITA in the cockpit.

[WLIU]

My observation is that many commercial knee boards sold to new pilots are indeed too large to be functional in a real cockpit. They sell them based on the idea that you have to have these large forms and books in your lap as you fly. Guys fly for a few hours trying to use them and then they go in the closet and never see the light of day again.

I will suggest that small and simple is good. I just need my knee board to position a small spiral notebook within easy reach so as to write ATIS, clearance, and fuel management info down, and keep one chart where I can see it. If I need more stuff in flight, I organize it within easy reach before starting the engine. In some airplanes I resort to wearing a hunting vest with a lot of pockets to hold extra stuff. I think that I mentioned in an earlier post that a Pitts has no floor and no cockpit storage. I will note that neither does any of the early 1940's military airplanes (P-40, Stearman, etc).

I will also note that I wear mine out at my knee, not pulled up on my thigh. In that location it does not get in the way of a yoke, my elbow is not hard up against the seat back as I try to write, and my eyes focus at about the same distance as the instrument panel is. I can write large since the spiral notebook has more than one page to write on. No style points for writing small and then squinting. But the flip side is that organizing your notes into orderly columns, rather than writing stuff at random locations on the page makes it easier to read back info.

Its funny how very few people learn to be organized voluntarily. I knee board is a tool to make your flight go more smoothly. A tool is only as good as the user.

Best of luck,

Wes

PS. If you have any sheet metal skills, making a custom knee board is easy. Rockler Woodworking will sell you clips to rivet on and your local fabric store will sell you webbing and velcro. Some spray can paint and done. Did that four my pilot wife.

[Chris In Marshfield]

I have a Sporty's tri-fold soft kneeboard that I've used since I started flying. It's nice to keep my notepad handy for jotting down freqs and weather, in addition to keeping those nice AOPA kneeboard airport diagrams handy. And I can keep charts at the ready in one of the folds.

http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/9199

I'm kind of a tall guy, and I fly an Archer. The yoke is a lot closer to your lap than in a Cessna, so if I have to use a lot of right aileron, the yoke will hit the kneeboard. But I usually only throw that much in during flight control checks before take off.

But as someone else mentioned earlier, it can be a concern if you fly in conditions that require a lot of control movement.

~Chris

[Mike M]

Some spray can paint and done.

paint? i never thought of that.

[Frank Giger]

paint? i never thought of that.

The bonus is that nobody will steal your pastel pink kneeboard. Decorative touches with unicorn and heart stickers are a real bonus.

;)

[steveinindy]

The bonus is that nobody will steal your pastel pink kneeboard. Decorative touches with unicorn and heart stickers are a real bonus.

;)

This would be a good time to point out that I am easily recognizable as the guy with the Paddington Bear wallet. LOL

[Joe LaMantia]

Frank!

Thanks for the great ideas on knee board decorating! I'm going to the Hobby Shop to get some paint and glitter, I'll convert my useless knee board into a Mothers' Day gift for my wife!

Joe
;)

[Mike M]

Decorative touches with unicorn and heart stickers are a real bonus.

;)

only if i can remember the unicorn frequency. it's not on the chart or in the AFD that i could find.




wait a minute. UNICORN? i need new glasses again.

[Joe LaMantia]

Check with the FAA or the Post Office, they have radar tracking for Santa and a mailing address, I'm guessing it's a high end "UniCom" for the unicorn!

Joe
:rollseyes: