Fly-in Pet Peeves

[stinsoner]

I hate to throw a bucket of cold water on a pastime which is among our favorites, the fly-in. But here goes. I have a nice Stinson 108-3, which I try to keep looking nice. Three times now I have had my rear "D" window scratched by pilots? peering in the window to check out the the interior and panel. How, you might ask? By those stupid *!&# pins that EAA'ers wear all over their hats, and the zippers on their jackets. One fly-in attendee put a nice scratch in the paint on the bottom of my aileron(metal on a Stinson 108-3) with his darn hat, I'm sure.

At one fly-in I decided to leave my door open so people could look inside without looking through the window. Not gonna do that again. A friend said that he saw a mother place her toddler inside on the seat so that he could play pilot and make airplane noises. My friend kept an eye on them so the toddler didn't try to start up and taxi off! When I was a young lad myself at a fly-in with my father, he noticed some guy place his toddler on top of the cowl of our Stinson 10A. Dad read the guy the riot act.

At Airventure I've witnessed more than one EAA'er lean in a cockpit to get a better look at a panel, putting his grimy hand on the seat. Now imagine 100 EAA'ers doing the same thing, with hands that have just eaten an ice cream cone, a hot dog, or just been in the grass while sitting. Don't these people think??

Am I being a little over critical here or being over protective of my pride 'n joy Stinson? I can understand the general public doing stupid things at fly-ins, but EAA'ers should know better. C'mon guys, wear your stupid pin hats to your local chapter meetings, but get a different hat to wear to fly-ins, or stay away from my airplane!! And when the sign on the prop says Look, But Please Do Not Touch! , that's what it means!

Dennis C.

[Mike Switzer]

The same thing goes on at car shows. You either have to have someone watching all the time or put a rope around your ride to keep people from touching. Rivets on jeans will do a nasty job on a car fender.

[MickYoumans]

One of my friends built a beautiful Thorp T18 back in the late 80's. After flying it to Fun & Sun and Oshkosh he decided not to take it back for the same reasons you mentioned above. I fully understand after all the hours invested in building an awesome machine it is heartbreaking to see someone carelessly damage it. My plane is just a plain old spam can and I don't like to see it get abused. I can't imagine what it would be like if I had put thousands of hours into building it.

[Bill Greenwood]

Dennis, it sounds like you would be happier if you kept your plane away from places like EAA where a lot of people like to look at airplanes.
How much damage did that toddler do? Can it be repaired or is the airplane ready for scrap?
If there are some sensitive areas like rear windows, maybe you could try blocking them off with a rope or lenght of red tape.

[steveinindy]

Here's a quick solution to this problem: http://www.waterstrider.com/bear-repellent-portable-electric-fence.htm (http://www.dgif.state.va.us/wildlife/bear/fencing.pdf)

[stinsoner]

Bill, the toddler didn't do any damage. But was it appropriate or considerate of the mom to put her toddler in my airplane? No. I wonder how she would like it if I tried out the driver's seat in her Bimmer out in the parking lot.

[stinsoner]

Steve, I like your sense of humor. Sounds like the Final Solution.

[steveinindy]

Steve, I like your sense of humor. Sounds like the Final Solution.

It's even more amusing when you figure in that I'm Jewish.

[Kyle Boatright]

Bill, the toddler didn't do any damage. But was it appropriate or considerate of the mom to put her toddler in my airplane? No. I wonder how she would like it if I tried out the driver's seat in her Bimmer out in the parking lot.

I've come to grips with the fact that if you get enough people in one place at one time, there will be a few idiots. One thing I like about fly-ins is that there are usually enough pilots and owners around to prevent anything worse than the occasional scrape. I can accept that. The alternative is to just leave the thing parked in the hangar year round.

[steveinindy]

The alternative is to just leave the thing parked in the hangar year round.

...or at least not fly the thing to events where there are going to be gawkers.

[Apteryx]

There is really no way to avoid it. I crewed for the Formula One racer Endeavor, and our first year out, the plane was pristine,
and while we were talking to one of the fans, he bent over to admire the shine, and put a nice scratch in the wing with his dangling telephoto lens...
AARRGGHH! Smooth & shiny is not just for show.
We need the fans, and the good will of our neighbors, so best we can do is to try inform and educate.

[steveinindy]

AARRGGHH! Smooth & shiny is not just for show.

...another reason to stay away from laminar flow.


We need the fans, and the good will of our neighbors, so best we can do is to try inform and educate.

This is true, but at the same time, if I ever decide to bring one of my designs out, it will probably be surrounded by a ring of snow fence topped with one of those bear deterrent electric fences. I'm not building it for show anyhow.

[FrankCordrey]

Sounds like you have a nice plane on display there.

The REAL question is......How much "drool" have you had to clean up from these gawkers?

[Frank Giger]

While I do like the idea of 'lectric fences, I think some white Engineer tape (it's half inch cotton) around the plane would probably be in order to protect it if you're getting damage from onlookers.

Plus a sign that says "Don't be shy - ask and I'll give a tour!" with smaller letters underneath that say "Please don't touch."

I'd also put a towel down on the front seat if you're going to let people look in via an open door (which is a nice solution to scratched windows). It's only natural to put a hand down when leaning in, after all.

In the end, though, it's a fair decision that in the balance between desire to display and infuriating treatment that one opts out of displaying the aircraft. You may figure that only tight knit group sort of gatherings is for you.

After all the purpose of the airplane is to please the owner, not others.

(so says the guy who has "step on seat" as part of the procedure for getting in his plane)

[steve]

Another pilot was admiring my polished wings with his hands. He asked, "What's the hardest part about keeping it looking so good?" I looked him in the eye and replied, "Wiping off the hand prints." I own a 2001 Honda Shadow ACE with lots of chrome and polished bits. You think I would've learned a lesson from that.

[stinsoner]

Frank, your suggestions are probably the only practicable, workable solutions to the problem, but I'll never go to that trouble. For one thing, I don't like to baby sit my airplane at fly-ins. I like to look at, but not touch, the other airplanes. And you're right, I've already figured out that I like small group fly-ins among pilot friends where the general public is not involved. I've never been into "showing" cars or my airplane. I just have a nice plane and I want to keep it that way.


Dennis C.

[stinsoner]

Steve, your comment about keeping your polished wings looking good made me laugh. My Stinson has a polished prop, which looks great but is irresistible for people to touch. I always tell them, "he who touches, has to polish."

Dennis C.

[Snowflake]

I've see it all at fly-ins... The owner of a beautifully restored Chipmunk who came back to his plane to find a father placing his toddler son on the wingtip, and encouraging the child to run down the wing to the wing root. The Glasair owner who found a child standing on his wheel pant while the parent held the child's hand to help him balance. The Cessna owner who was sitting under his wing watching the airshow, and looked over to see someone who had removed his shoes and socks (it was a warm day) and had hung the socks on the prop to air out.In each case, when the transgression was pointed out, the perpetrators didnt't see anything wrong with it...

[Rick Rademacher]

Yes, everyone from EAA members to the general public should be respectful and careful around aircraft. However, I go to fly-ins to show my aircraft to others and interest them in my passion of flying. So, I let anyone who can climb or crawl, into my aircraft at the event.

This holds true when flying an ultralight, Cessna 182, Cessna 210, Pietenpol, and now the 2003 Oshkosh award winning J-3 Cub. I do spend most of my time at the aircraft telling about the systems and making sure people and the aircraft are safe.

I have as much fun letting 80 year olds, former pilots, in the aircraft as I do with young kids. Everyone loves this photo opportunity. Many times, parents will thank me for letting kids touch and feel my aircraft. And, I tell everyone to ask the owner before touching another aircraft on display!

One does have to check out all the controls and buttons prior to engine start for the return flight. Even with the simple Cub, this rule holds true. One time I missed securing the fuel primer. The engine was hard to start and produced a lot smoke.

At AirVenture this next year, several Cubs will be on display to let everyone take a ground lesson in a Cub. Hopefully, many people will be taking pictures to create a lasting good impression for all.

With proper supervision, a hands-on opportunity to touch aircraft is a super way to promote our enjoyment of flight. I can also understand those that don’t ever want their aircraft touched. As I don’t repair aircraft, I am confident that others at Oshkosh can fix my Cub for the return flight if someone pokes a hole in the wing.

[Apteryx]

It wouldn't be too difficult to print a short hand-out, easy to read, maybe cartoon form, on air show edicate, to give out at admissions.
Little reminders like this is NOT a ride like in front of your supermarket (it would take a slot a lot bigger then quarters)

[Bill Greenwood]

Dennis, this must be a bad time of year for you. There are men with white beards in red suits at many malls, stores, schools, ski areas, and other places all over the country.
And lots of Moms and even Dads or grandparents, bring toddlers and put them in the laps of these old guys. I have never heard one of these old guys complain; but it is a good thing that these toddlers are not inflicted on you or your plane.
As for me, I like people, most of them, and kids in particular.
I think the world and all of us would be better if things were more like kids and golden retreivers. They have wag in their tale and a smile on their face until someone treats them the wrong way.
Little kids and goldens don't wake up in the morning and say, who can I cheat today or who can I start a war with? Evil is not their normal nature, it has to be learned.

[flyingriki]

Dennis, this must be a bad time of year for you. There are men with white beards in red suits at many malls, stores, schools, ski areas, and other places all over the country.
And lots of Moms and even Dads or grandparents, bring toddlers and put them in the laps of these old guys. I have never heard one of these old guys complain; but it is a good thing that these toddlers are not inflicted on you or your plane.
As for me, I like people, most of them, and kids in particular.
I think the world and all of us would be better if things were more like kids and golden retreivers. They have wag in their tale and a smile on their face until someone treats them the wrong way.
Little kids and goldens don't wake up in the morning and say, who can I cheat today or who can I start a war with? Evil is not their normal nature, it has to be learned.

What in the world does this have to do with anything ........? Most of us like dogs and kids. Most of us don't like them tearing up our stuff. We don't blame them, we blame the idiots that raised them.
My plane isn't nice enough to worry about it's cosmetics but that still hasn't stopped some dolts from damaging it and there is absolutely no excuse for that. When I finally get it finished and painted I'll be just as concerned as the originator of this thread. Those that poo poo him don't seem to have anything worth proper care. And that's fine too - just don't insult his concerns when he tries to share his work and his good deed doesn't go unpunished.......!

[stinsoner]

Thanks for going to bat for me, flyingriki. And Bill, I don't even know where to start replying to your comment, although I'm sure it was composed with tongue-in-cheek. I like kids, got 3 boys of my own although they're college/post college age now. They were once toddlers, though. They were supervised and disciplined. I see many kids today who receive neither. Usually they are referred to as spoiled brats. I would never have put my boys in someone else's plane when they were toddlers without first asking permission; but frankly, it would not even occur to me that they should even sit in someone's airplane. I'd just tell them they can't do that. I like dogs, too. We've had 2 of them, although now we have a cat. But like kids, I don't like dogs that are not trained, not restrained, and unsupervised. My brother has a dog(a retriever, by the way) which he loves like a kid. But whenever I visit my brother, this hyperactive dog runs up to me, puts his front paws in my belly, and then sticks his snout...well, where dogs stick their muzzle to check things out. Yeah, I can do without that.

At any rate, I got this pet-peeve about fly-ins off my chest, and I see there are others who have horror stories much worse than mine. It came to mind yesterday when I was polishing the the windows on my airplane when I noticed another scratch on the "D" window. I won't lose any sleep over it, but I think pilots should be aware of their hats(no pins, please!) and jackets(zippers) when they are getting up close and personal with someone else's airplane.

Hope everyone is having a nice Christmas!

Dennis C.

[rosiejerryrosie]

I'm with you Rick. I love to have kids hop into the seat of my Aeronca and find out what the knobs, switches and dials all do. Like it even better when I can take tham for a ride....

[DanChief]

I guess that's the advantage of a beat-up old airplane -- I don't care if people look and touch.

[Mychael]

There are limits though and it should be (but sadly often isn't) common curtesy to respect property not your own. I've had newly fitted wheel spats cracked cos' some lard arse at an airshow thought they'd make a nice shady seat under the wing.
I've been sleeping on my sailboat when it was moored at a jetty only to be awoken by morons thinking it was ok for them to use my boat as place to stand and cast their lines from and finally I've had people from one of the more "camera happy" nations open the wooden framed door of my sportscar car and sit on it (the lip of the door) to take photos of each other, an irrate owner running over & yelling b-gg-r off seems to cross all language barriers.

[avee8r]

Several years back I was invited to bring our AirVenture Reserve Grand Champion airplane to a local Concourse de Elegance Auto Show for display. Guests were dressed to the 9's, enjoying cavier and champagne. While I usually stay by the plane to share its history with onlookers, I took several breaks this evening to admire the other planes and cars assembled. It was on one of these excursions that I happened to glance back to my parking spot, only to see to two young ladies taking pictures of each other while placing themselves on and in my plane. I casually walked back and struck up a conversation with them to check their level of alcahol consuption and intent. While one was more than happy to let me take a photo of her sitting on the lift strut and steping on the wheel pant, as I'd seen her do from afar, the other was more shy and didn't want to repeat her act of lying on my seat for a re-take. Nor was I able to get their names or numbers for later contact should I discover any hidden damage. In the end, everything turned out fine as it always has, and I continue to freely share my love of aviation with all that respectfully ask. By the way, here's a picture of that fateful evening. She doesn't look too distructive does she?

[steveinindy]

By the way, here's a picture of that fateful evening. She doesn't look too distructive does she?

No, not at all (except maybe those heels on your wheelpants). However, she can touch anything of mine that she wants.


BTW, my girlfriend's name is Kat and she approves this message.

[Treetop_Flyer]

I like the old adage... "An airplane is like another man's wife...you can look, but don't touch."

More seriously, i'm just looking for a little common sense from those attending fly-ins. These aircraft are expensive to fix/maintain and the average person doesn't know what they can/cannot touch without breaking it. I had to chase a kid off one of my wheelpants this summer at a fly-in at KAUM before he broke it off. His brother was at the next aircraft over pulling the prop through for fun. Good thing the owner of that aircraft had shut the fuel off and had properly grounded mags.

I love showing anyone who will listen my aircraft and I love letting people sit inside. But the key is that they have to be briefed on what they can and cannot safely touch.

At the end of the day, it's simply a matter of having respect for other people's possessions. Is that REALLY too much to ask? I think not.

[Frank Giger]

She doesn't look too distructive does she?

Not at all - that Grand Champion looks positively gorgeous.

[steveinindy]

Not at all - that Grand Champion looks positively gorgeous.

There's an airplane in that picture? I hadn't noticed. LOL

[rosiejerryrosie]

She doesn't look too distructive does she?

I don't know about that. She looks pretty darned dangerous to me....

[mrreddick]

I'm with you, too many idiots at fly-ins. My very first plane was a beautiful 150 Commuter. We spent the day before the fly-in waxing and polishing. Went to get our free fly-in burgers and came back only to find Bubba eating his lunch off of the slick empennage. After I told him to go find a table he turned to his sweetie to say let's go, only then could I see that she was sitting on the main gear wheelpant. When she stood up I asked her if she saw the "NO STEP" placard and she said "yea, but I was sitting, not stepping on it!" And yes, she was a cute blonde!
My second plane was a totally restored Grumman AA5. One of our first air shows in it was just as bad. As we left the plane to go attend the FAA Wings Seminar, I looked back to see a dad lift his toddler up to my wing so he could proceed to run across my wing. Luckily the kid didn't weigh much and didn't do any damage with his soft shoes.
My current plane, an RV6A, had the worst incident. While at a fly-in in east Texas, we were watching an RC demo when I glanced down the taxiway to where I was parked to see a pre-teen girl trying to pry open my canopy. It was locked in the open position for air flow purposes and the opening was just big enough to get fingers in. I guess she wanted that MP3 player that was laying between the seats. Guess who her dad was, the guy putting on the RC demo!
I don't attend air shows anymore if the public is allowed to roam around and be where they shouldn't be. I like Steve's idea!

[Bill Greenwood]

I must be missing out on meeting the bad side of society. In 20 years or more of displaying planes at airshows, and some years having two planes at Oshkosh, I have never had happen to me nor seen anyone have their kid run down the wing nor have a girl try to pry open the canopy, nor have anyone put their toddler in the seat without permission. I do hang a "please look, but not touch" sign on the prop most times,,but many people don't even see it.
I have had people move the rudder or ailerons, which is annoying, but not usually damaging. I have had people leave fingerprints on a canopy when trying to see in, again annoying.
The total damage I have had was a slightly bent cover over a trim wheel inside the cockpit by a reeinactor who had permission to sit inside, but who was a large guy and stepped on it getting out. The cure was to gently bend it back up be hand, no harm done: and I did have a small hole, the size of a pencil poked in the elevator fabric at a show years ago, I think near Witchita. Someone said they saw a kid do this, I can't say for sure, but it was easily patched.

As for "the public being allowed to roam around and be where they shouldn't" ; I guess that I like people, most of them anyway, and I feel that if you are having an airshow, the people should be near the planes, as long as it is safe.
I very much like the way it is at Oshkosh, where the display plane areas are open for people to see, until it is time to clear out the area for starting up for the show. Osh has lots of volunteers and marshalls, to make sure there is safety with planes running and taxing, and a really good record of safety on that. Osh also has some volunteers, like CAP and others to help keep an eye on planes so people don't climb on or damage them. It is done well at Willow Run, Michingan, and Geneseo, N. Y. also.
I not only like people in general, and I think places like EAA Oshkosh bring our the best in people, but I'd like to make more friends for gen aviation and get more people interested in learning to fly.
I don't think we do this by acting like we are exclusive from the average guy.

I disagree with the type of show like many military ones where there is a barrier between the crowd and display planes at all times; that seems exclusionary to me.

[Dan Grunloh]

Ribbons or tape around the plane is the way to go. Lucky for me my 14 year old LSA trike isn't worth all that much and any part can be replaced. At the local airport fly-in the kids to young for young eagle rides line up to sit in it while mom takes pictures. It's easy for a toddler to climb into the seat only 14 inches off the ground. They will grab and pull on anything. Often that ask if they can start it up.

My buddies are happy with it because it keeps the kids off their more fragile and expensive airplanes.

Back in the 80's I had a friend who built Goldwings, the foam and fiberglass canard ultralights. The joke was they were made out of coffee cup foam. Once while setting up our ultralights at a mall show I saw a kid come running along through the mall who leaped clean over (broad jumped) his foam wing lying on the floor ready to be mounted on the fuselage. He made it.

Worse was a trip to Oshkosh with a real show beauty that was deliberately built light so he could keep the weight down. The secret of good Goldwings was keeping the layer of glass and resin fairly thin. During the week dozens of people pressed a thumb or finger on that beautiful wing to get a feel for it. Some pressed a little too hard. When the light was at the right angle you could see faint depressions all along the leading edge of the the wing. He was sick. Perhaps those experiences inspired me to favor rugged and repairable airframes.

[Hiperbiper]

My only bad experience was due to a KA 350 spooling up and (just as I reached my plane after a mad dash across the ramp) taxing out, blowing dirt and gravel all over my airplane as well as trying to remove my right door which was propped open for display. That what happens when the local EAA chapter doesn't have control of the FBO's GA ramp...

I've seen pilots at fly-in's do the same thing but with more benign results...


At fly-in's, as in life itself, always watch your six.

Chris