Scooters/bikes should be allowed more places

[Saras 182]

Airventure is hot and big. It would be nice if it was easier to see more of it. Scooters and bikes are a good way to cover more ground and riding on them creates a refreshing breeze that helps cool you down on a hot day. I understand not allowing them in populated areas. But they should be allowed in more areas. They are allowed in N40 and S40... but not HBC. They should also be allowed around the classrooms and between boeing plaza through vintage and down to STOL. They should also be allow in the fly market. Perhaps even on the outside of the hangars, not the sides facing the plaza.

Its sad to miss something great at airventure simply because it was to far away. And no trolleys are not an option. They are too infrequent and are never going where you want, even if you can actually tell where they are going.. which you never can. Please solve this issue in the future.

[Bob Kaestner]

I assume this is tongue in cheek ;-)

[CHICAGORANDY]

Airventure is hot and big. It would be nice if it was easier to see more of it. Scooters and bikes are a good way to cover more ground and riding on them creates a refreshing breeze that helps cool you down on a hot day. I understand not allowing them in populated areas. But they should be allowed in more areas. They are allowed in N40 and S40... but not HBC. They should also be allowed around the classrooms and between boeing plaza through vintage and down to STOL. They should also be allow in the fly market. Perhaps even on the outside of the hangars, not the sides facing the plaza.

Its sad to miss something great at airventure simply because it was to far away. And no trolleys are not an option. They are too infrequent and are never going where you want, even if you can actually tell where they are going.. which you never can. Please solve this issue in the future.

Just in case this new poster IS actually serious? Though being a silly troll DOES seem likely.

I cannot stress how much I DISAGREE with your suggestion. Approximately 70,000 to 85,000 people are on the AirVenture grounds EVERY day. If anything there are TOO MANY scooters, UTVs and golf carts allowed on the grounds as it is. The stretch of road from Hangar B to Ultralights is jam-packed with pedestrians, especially near Vintage to Hangar Cafe, making any form of wheeled travel a serious challenge, trams have a hard time making that turn and safely proceeding. Same situation on the 'Yellow' tram route through the exhibit hangar area. Adding more scooters/bikes would make it a nightmare beyond belief. I've been a Tram Conductor for over 15 years so I'm kinda 'familiar' with their daily operation. We run a pretty well orchestrated process that provides never more than a 5-10 minute wait for a tram to arrive at each stop. ALL the tram stops are identified by a VERY tall rectangular pylon, on BOTH sides of the road, color coded to the route, and furnished with an eye-level sign indicating where its next stop will be. The AirVenture grounds map (free at the admission gates) clearly shows each of the routes we run. If you see me next year I will gladly show you how to know where each one is going, so that's one of your problems solved.

As to having a personal conveyance to take you everywhere your heart desires, whenever you wish to go there? Might I respectfully suggest that you consider renting a mobility scooter, available near the Main Gate? I have mobility issues myself that limit how far I can walk. I own a mobility scooter that restores the freedom of my youth and it is GREAT. Were it not for my allowed medical mobility device I too would miss most of wonderful things to see and do at this Convention.

[Inspector Fenwick]

I would never suggest that scooters not be available for those who cannot otherwise navigate the vastness of this event due to a health issue. BUT.....just because grandpa or grandma need one, that does not mean that little Skippy the grandson should allowed to ride around on one. BIKES???? No freaking way.

(Yes, I bit on troll bait.........).

[turtle]

How about we don’t?

We already have too many golf carts and ATV’s mixing with the walkers. I had my foot run over by a kid, yes a kid, driving a big UTV through vintage after the night airshow.

The trams are easy to tell where they are going. It’s all on the map. An improvement would be another route around the east of Boeing. And increase the number of trams because if you don’t get on at the start/end, you won’t get on in the middle. The southbound stop at warbirds and northbound at ultralight and vintage are just a waste of space - the tram is always full. Same for all the mid stops on the yellow route. Didn’t see one person able to get on in the whole week.

Airventure always brings out the worst in people. In Scholler after the night airshow, a guy was walking down one of the roads with his three pre-teen kids spread out holding hands, telling them “we’re not letting any scooters or carts pass”. These are the kind of entitled, selfish people you want mixing inside the grounds with different forms of transportation?

We have rules and signs all over that motorized vehicles must be driven by a licensed driver that are ignored and not enforced. I thought there was a rule against private vehicles on the show grounds, but watched a guy unload a utv in Scholler and saw him the next day driving it past ultralights.

You literally want to allow scooters and bikes in the most dense areas of the show. The fly market? Really? People are already bumping into each other just walking. If you don’t feel like walking or using the trams like everyone else, you can rent a mobility scooter outside the main gate. They don’t check for a disability, just being lazy or entitled is good enough.

[CHICAGORANDY]

For some 'behind the scenes' info - on the Tram routes, this year we were running an empty tram out of the turn-around terminals about every 3rd or 4th tram because we KNOW there are good folks waiting at the next stop after a terminal who otherwise won't ever get a ride. On a related note, I mostly worked the Blue and Red this year and I tried to ALWAYS leave at least the last row of my tram empty when we pulled out of a terminal to be able to seat 4 or 5 would-be passengers down the line.

But math is math. A tram holds 'about' 40 people vs 75,000 daily visitors who might seek a ride. We gotta make a LOT of trips. lol A bit of history, trams were first created long ago with the sole purpose of providing transport to ONLY the elderly and the disabled. They now accept all all passengers and often tram seats are full of the young able-bodied who ride past older folks waiting at a stop. Just sayin'.

[turtle]

I wonder if anyone is keeping track of the average age of the crowd. While attendance keeps creeping up, it sure looks like the age is too. Not too many younguns can afford the ever increasing amount of serviced sites and high tech gizmos on display. It’s hard getting around in the heat for us with more years behind than ahead. I was feeling like I was about to collapse a bit south of homebuilts. Nowhere to cool down, no way to get back to the rv. Just people staring out from icy cold members only buildings and golf carts zipping by on their way to get some more grey poupon. I read somewhere that even the volunteer driven handicap golf carts were canceled this year. I guess there’s no profit in selling $2 bottled water and $15 hamburgers.

Really, for what we pay in admission, parking, camping, and necessities of life, and the vendors pay just for a little booth, the EAA should throw the membership a bone. Giving away a 20 cent bottle of water or adding a/c to a few of their buildings, like the clothing stores where people can buy things, won’t cause them to go bankrupt. Add a tram route through Boeing square with stops on either side, even if it has to be stopped for movements. Another single small tram to shuttle between the red warbirds stop and the actual warbirds and tri-motor. Make it handicap prioritized. Whether you believe in climate change or not, it’s getting hotter for the event and the attendees are getting older. If we can’t change the date to something more comfortable, at least we should try to compensate for the effects.

[PaulDow]

…trams were first created long ago with the sole purpose of providing transport to ONLY the elderly and the disabled. They now accept all all passengers…
The grounds were quite a bit smaller back then though. Of course the main issue is how much should be spent for one week a year. From a rough measurement on Google Earth, it’s .4 miles from the main entrance to the flight line. Warbirds to Ultralights is 1-1/3 miles. The distances from the entrance to the campers and auto parking is getting farther away. The campgrounds were expanded four times last week. There was talk about using off-site parking over the weekend.
Exhibitors wouldn’t want people being transported past their displays too.

Edit: The slickest solution would be to have Elon’s Boring Company put some tubes in.
That locks the design though, the way busses are more flexible than trolley tracks.

How about a bunch of those Wisk air taxis?

[CHICAGORANDY]

"Of course the main issue is how much should be spent for one week a year. "

An excellent and important point. Buying more trams to accommodate the continuing increase in attendance each year could be a significant cash outlay.

For the tram operations there further needs to be a sufficient number of volunteers to operate the service. There is a driver and a conductor for each unit, on both shifts, safety officers (2) at both terminals both shifts, plus extra tram team workers at the two terminals to provide breaks for each route on both shifts. There are always days during AirVenture when tram volunteer availability is the limiting factor on how many trams can be put into service. Then there is the need for spare tractors and wagons to provide for the mechanical breakdowns and flat tires that occur every year.

What's that saying? "The difficult takes time, the impossible takes money" and at AirVenture it IS volunteers that make it all happen.

[krw920]

For some 'behind the scenes' info - on the Tram routes, this year we were running an empty tram out of the turn-around terminals about every 3rd or 4th tram because we KNOW there are good folks waiting at the next stop after a terminal who otherwise won't ever get a ride.

I didn't witness this happening on the yellow route, at least twice I ended up walking to the tram terminal after watching 4 full trams drive by Hangar C.

But I will say that I think the stops and the signage was about perfect this year. You knew what the next stop was as it was clearly spelled out. Only thing that was bad were the people who had no earthly clue what tram route ran where, but that isn't on the tram system, that is on the fact people didn't educate themselves by taking 5 minutes to look at a map to see what route went where.

And one other note, the express trams to N40 and "Ultralights" were great ideas, other than the "Ultralight" express didn't stop anywhere near Ultralights, but at the northern boundary of the S40.

[Eric Page]

If we can’t change the date to something more comfortable...
The 2020 cancellation presented an opportunity to do this, but it wasn't taken and likely wasn't even considered.

I attended AirVenture for two days in 2012 -- a pilgrimage of sorts -- when it was particularly hot. Wearing enough clothing not to be burned to a crisp made the heat unbearable, and my non-air-conditioned dorm room meant that I got little sleep. Apart from breakfast in the campus chow hall, the food was terrible. Frankly, it was an utterly miserable experience. I'd still like to fly my own homebuilt there one day, but I don't know if I can stand the heat, the crowds and sleeping on the ground.

Unfortunately, there aren't many better date options considering weather in Oshkosh. If you closely examine the charts here (https://weatherspark.com/y/13598/Average-Weather-in-Oshkosh-Wisconsin-United-States-Year-Round), it's clear that moving the date elsewhere on the spring-through-fall calendar could improve temps, but... Early Jun increases the chance of cloud cover and rain (Jun is, on average, the wettest month). Late Jun risks the grounds being a mud bog. Moving into Aug doesn't solve the heat problem, and earlier or later, e.g. May or Sep, would fix the daytime temps at the risk of more clouds and cold nights.

Perhaps the best compromise would be one month later: late Aug to early Sep. Better chance of lower daytime temps, still warm-to-cool at night, only slightly more cloudiness, lower chance of rain, and only a 45 min loss of daylight compared to the current dates. But, students begin moving into the UW dorms on Aug 30th (2023), so that's a non-starter.

I suggest the event be moved to western Washington. Keep the dates as-is, and you'll enjoy our glorious summer weather (as I type this at ~11:30am it's 70° and 55% humidity), no thunderstorms or high wind, and the food vendors will have salmon burgers. Win-win-win!

[turtle]

The distances from the entrance to the campers and auto parking is getting farther away.

For reference, we put just over 42 miles on our bikes over 6 days.

According to google, the Oshkosh area will make $170 million for the week. A few more trams staffed by almost free labor should pay for itself in short order in increased attendance. I know plenty of old aviators who have given up on ever attending again due to the distance and heat. Imagine an old jeep, cut in half with tram seats welded into the middle for warbirds. For cooling, rent some portable a/c units like the vendors do if you don't want the cost of maintaining it. Swamp coolers in every door of the hangars. How about those misting booths like they had at universal orlando? Get in, push a button, and get lightly misted head to toe with water. Plenty of cheap solutions that can help the attendees, but it seems spending a dime will get you fired from the EAA, but having to call emergency for someone who passed out, won't.

Even changes suggested by the boots on the ground get tied up in the bureaucracy for years. Just like the accident in ultralights. People from that area knew something like that was bound to happen. Well, throw it in the suggestion box and we'll look into it at some point. They're so focused about making room for more people, everything else is turning to crap. The night airshow, once a must see, was a carbon copy of last year right down to the music, except for less performers. Even comedians change up their act once in a while. Don't they realize people visit more than once?

[turtle]

Then there is the need for spare tractors and wagons to provide for the mechanical breakdowns and flat tires that occur every year.

How can you mitigate those problems? The wagons, fully loaded are still lightweight. There should be no flat tires doing the slow speeds the trams run unless the tires are old and thin. It's not like there's a bunch sharp things on the roads. If I can bounce a cheap old trailer 1500 miles down interstates and gravel roads to get there without a problem, a maintained, purpose built wagon shouldn't be failing over the course of a week. For the tractors, well, you're using the wrong color, lol.


at AirVenture it IS volunteers that make it all happen.
And it's a certain three letter organization that starts with E that prevents a lot from happening.

[CHICAGORANDY]

"the "Ultralight" express didn't stop anywhere near Ultralights, but at the northern boundary of the S40."

I worked the South Express for a couple shifts this year. The general consensus from passengers was quite favorable considering this was a new creation for 2023. On the run from Hangar B we DID stop at the N/E corner of Ultralights near Parker Johns BBQ and then carried on non-stop to the S40/Sea Plane Base bus stop. The return trip WAS non-stop to Hangar B per the signage there. Caveat - I can only speak to the Express trips on which I was the Conductor. There is always a learning curve when a new route is added so it is possible not every volunteer was aware of the UL stop. There was no signage in place for a UL stop this year. Perhaps next year EAA will put tram stop pylons in place?

I didn't work the North Express tram so I can't comment on how it was received, but I 'suspect' the South Express route will become a permanent fixture for 2024.

"It's not like there's a bunch sharp things on the roads"

Oh yes there were. One of our volunteers removed bent sharp scraps of metal he found at one of the tram terminals. I doubt it was a unique experience. 'Stuff' happens. As to a loaded tram being lightweight? 40 people x average "Wisconsin" weight passengers might stretch the definition of the word a wee bit. lol

"And it's a certain three letter organization that starts with E that prevents a lot from happening"

I am unaware of anything EAA does that prevents members from volunteering to work trams for the event? MY earlier comments refer to the labor force required to put a tram on the pavement.

[turtle]

Most of the volunteers do a great job in spite of the organization, not because of it. Most conversations with long time volunteers end up with "we've been trying for years to <insert simple solution to a multi-year problem>, but nothing changes". I could be wrong, but I thought you commented at one time about the glacial slow improvements to the trams and the org not listening to the people actually doing the job. And no, the org would never turn down free labor. Heck, I'd probably volunteer if the event was about airplanes and the membership and not about taking advantage of everyone for profit.

The vendors are unhappy. One was irate about having to walk in their entire display because they arrived with an evil, forbidden, u-haul trailer instead of using whatever middleman they were supposed to pay off. The rules they have to follow to maximize revenue are disturbing. (remember "water"gate?)

The members are unhappy. The site next to mine, whose first time was last year, asked if the night airshow was the same every year. The overnight rains that made the roads a muddy mess were made worse by the no-exceptions rule for checkout time. Can't wait for them to dry out a bit or you'll lose another days camping fee, so pedal to the metal. In the storms the cell and wifi service was unusable when you needed it most (not really their fault), and the loudspeakers didn't reach the whole campground (totally their fault). As mentioned, no real public places to cool off, little shade and seats, and expensive water. Having to travel across the whole airport in the early morning for tri-motor tickets for a flight in the afternoon that may get canceled (but you won't know until you hike all the way back there in the heat). 50/50 on actually getting on a warbirds tour after waiting in line for an hour. A lady with a cane who was told to walk around the entire apron instead of crossing at the entrance (even though the Corsair there was shut down, chocked, and had no pilot) had the best comment of the week - "why do they hate us so much?". From the pilots to the visitors to the vendors to the volunteers, everyone I talked to agreed this was the most unorganized event in years.

So many problems, so many simple, low cost solutions that could be implemented before next year if it wasn't for greed.

[azmedic85355]

Maybe it’s time to go back to being a members only event - or actually “sell out” at a certain number of tickets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[CHICAGORANDY]

"I thought you commented at one time about the glacial slow improvements to the trams and the org not listening to the people actually doing the job"

Indeed I did. I once wanted specific turn-around areas so the Yellow/Red and Yellow/Blue trams could exchange passengers off the main road and folks could have access to the Scholler buses etc. I also wanted them to make large signs on both sides of the roads indicating the tram stops, color coded to the routes with signage indicating what the next stop on that route would be. This year I did note blue water fountains where guests could refill water bottles for free as well as the potable water trailers. they did add two new routes I assume based on previous attendee comments. They have expanded airplane camping areas.

I suppose I've come to accept that change comes slowly to large organizations, some folks will always be unhappy with decisions made, and most everything involved with AirVenture, only a 7 day event, gets weighed against a cost/benefit analysis. I remain thrilled beyond belief that I'm not in charge stuck making those decisions. In my dotage (74 and retired) I recognize that life is a series of choices. I booked my motel room for my 9 day stay in 2024 before I checked out this year. See you there ....... or not.

Almost forgot - I now always try to turn a negative into a positive - my girlfriend was feeling ill, went to the hospital and they said she had worms..... so I took her fishin'.

[keen9]

I thought the trams were much improved this year. The "between the ends" stops are always going to be an issue, but even that seemed a bit better. The south end is still where some work needs to be done, maybe another split in routes. If staffing is really the issue, given the size of the grounds, maybe it is time to hire tram operations employees if we can't get sufficient volunteers.

Also, while the middle areas definitely still need fewer vehicles, there could be a case to be made for bikes and scooters in the further out regions. It would need some planning and hard enforcement, so it would be a big job to implement.

[Saras 182]

I am totally shocked by these responses. But it occurs to me that many people just walk straight into the air show at the flight line and never move. I can't say that I have ever done that. I walk through all the hangars, usually more than once. I walk to the vintage area and stol area. Walk over to warbirds. I occasionally make a loop through the fly market. I normally spend the whole week, and still miss something. Even after the first day I am exhausted. But yet I have 6 more days left. The EAA website itself suggests to bring multiple pairs of shoes. To hear so many people don't want to make it easier to check out all Airventure has to offer,, is very surprising.

I made clear that I wasn't saying to allow scooters everywhere.. but not allowing them in homebuilt camping, but allowing them in n40 camping or s40 camping is ridiculous.
The trolleys or trams are useless. They never slow down for you to get on. And you don't know where they are going to or coming from anyways. And if you did, there aren't enough of them. I have been going to airventure for five years (first year flying in) and have never used them once or even know of anyone that has used them. We all normally walk 5-10miles each day, according to the phones.. which obviously can be highly inaccurate.

At the very least, how about getting some more benches. Can we at least all agree that some more benches would be nice.

[Auburntsts]

The trams have specific stops which are clearly marked by big signs that say “TRAM”. You know there’s a Tram map, right? I’m sorry but I’m also in the camp of not allowing any additional vehicles into the main show area than they already do. Also I’m not sure they actually condone bikes in N40, I think they just don’t make a big deal about it.

[CJW]

I am totally shocked by these responses. But it occurs to me that many people just walk straight into the air show at the flight line and never move. I can't say that I have ever done that. I walk through all the hangars, usually more than once. I walk to the vintage area and stol area. Walk over to warbirds. I occasionally make a loop through the fly market. I normally spend the whole week, and still miss something. Even after the first day I am exhausted. But yet I have 6 more days left. The EAA website itself suggests to bring multiple pairs of shoes. To hear so many people don't want to make it easier to check out all Airventure has to offer,, is very surprising.

I made clear that I wasn't saying to allow scooters everywhere.. but not allowing them in homebuilt camping, but allowing them in n40 camping or s40 camping is ridiculous.
The trolleys or trams are useless. They never slow down for you to get on. And you don't know where they are going to or coming from anyways. And if you did, there aren't enough of them. I have been going to airventure for five years (first year flying in) and have never used them once or even know of anyone that has used them. We all normally walk 5-10miles each day, according to the phones.. which obviously can be highly inaccurate.

At the very least, how about getting some more benches. Can we at least all agree that some more benches would be nice.

You were serious? Having to dodge the normal motorized and foot traffic isn't enough? I can only imagine the amount of injuries this would cause.

[CHICAGORANDY]

The more that the OP Saras182 posts, the more inclined I am to conclude they are nothing but a sad troll. The inane comment "The trolleys or trams are useless. They never slow down for you to get on. And you don't know where they are going to or coming from anyways." has me seriously wondering how they were able to find Wittman in the first place with such limited observational and map reading skills. One must assume someone else drives them to the event. If a person's vision is so poor that they can't see a 10' tall color coded pylon with 12" letters that reads TRAM then I suggest a guide person leading them around the grounds is their best bet.

And 'oddly enough' ALL the trams travel in the direction that the tractor is facing - it's easier on the tires that way. Furthermore, the TRAMS trams ONLY stop at tram stops indicated by the aforementioned 10' tall color coded pylons that read TRAM. If that is also too confusing for the OP, please refer back to the guide person idea for your own safety and well being.

With the understanding that often Mrs. Gump was also correct in her observation. And that's all I have to say about that.

[skyfixer8]

Gonna put my 2 cents in on something Randy forgot to mention. I have been driving tram for more years than I care to remember, and one thing I notice is that you can have the most knowledgeable conductor on the back of the tram almost shouting out where we are going, or pointing out points of interest, but very few people will listen and when the tram stops, both the conductor and I will be bombarded with questions about what they were just told. My second penny has to do with the alleged VIP's running around in cars, gators or golfcarts that think they own the place and we have to get out of their way. I could go on, but enough said from me.

[Kyle Boatright]

According to google, the Oshkosh area will make $170 million for the week.

That's the gross income of the entire region from the event. It goes to everyone from EAA to little mom and pop motels in Appleton, and everywhere in between. And then you have to subtract the business expenses from that to see what profit actually comes out of the event. Maybe $25-$50M for the entire region?

Per the 2022 annual report, EAA's top line income from the event was $12M and they spent half of that on expenses for the event. The other $6M goes to fund other EAA activities that don't bring in income. Which of those activities do we want to defund to pay for more infrastructure for a one week event? Especially an event that continues to grow at a remarkable pace, implying that the event itself already has an adequate set of amenities?

[Kyle Boatright]

To hear so many people don't want to make it easier to check out all Airventure has to offer,, is very surprising.

At the very least, how about getting some more benches. Can we at least all agree that some more benches would be nice.

Who said they don't want to make things easier? I see reasoned responses explaining why it is hard/not financially responsible/and maybe impractical to make certain changes.

Benches are nice, but sitting on the ground is allowed. As are lightweight chairs you can carry with you and plop down anywhere you want. That's how my group rolls - 10 miles of walking a day, plus the occasional tram ride, each of us carrying a lightweight folding chair, water, and a couple of snacks in a backpack. Been doing it that way for 29 years...

[keen9]

I am totally shocked by these responses. But it occurs to me that many people just walk straight into the air show at the flight line and never move.

I averaged 6 miles of walking per day during OSH. We did sit for the Wed night airshow, but that is pretty much it for sitting.

You should really spend some time on https://www.eaa.org/airventure so you have all the info you need before you get there.

[steve]

That $170M is new money coming in. It's not the barber giving $10 to the baker who gives it to the cook who gives it to the clerk, etc.

[dougbush]

I'm not the OP, but I agree with the title of this thread: scooters/bikes should be allowed in more places. It really is the best way to get around AirVenture.

The first time I came to Oshkosh, after walking around the grounds all day, I attended the evening program at Theater in the Woods. Afterwards there were no trams or buses operating, and I had to hike to my campsite in the N40. I learned my lesson and have brought a bike every year since.

I wouldn't say trams are useless, but the one time I tried to use a tram this year, I was at Vintage Northbound, and I waited, and when the tram finally arrived it was full and only two people got off. There was a guy behind me on crutches, so of course I let him and his companion have the empty seats, and I told my companion let's just walk. So, trams are not useless, just mostly useless for me, because whenever I want to ride, someone more decrepit than me shows up, and my conscience won't allow me to take the last seat.

The forums and workshops are mostly scheduled 15 minutes apart. There's no way to get from the forums plaza to the museum or the ultralight forums tent by tram or foot in 15 minutes, but by bike it is possible.

I would like to point out that everyone who is able to ride a bike to his destination frees up a seat on a tram!

Since I've been coming to AirVenture, they've made it harder for cyclists to access and park near the forums and other areas. I'd like to see that trend reversed.

[mazdaP5]

See, you think that if bikes were allowed on the grounds, you could get to forums quicker. In actuality, if bikes were allowed on the grounds, there would be kids riding bikes all over the place like in Scholler.

[dougbush]

I haven't stayed in Scholler, but bikes are not a problem in the N40 or around the perimeter of the showgrounds or on the roads to the museum and Pioneer Airport or outside the fence to the restaurants and stores Northwest of the field. I'm not asking for them to be allowed everywhere, just more places.

[Airmutt]

One can not appreciate the potential scale of the problem unless looking at Camp Scholler. The roads are constantly choked with UTVs, ATVs, golf carts, scooters, motorcycles, bikes, and EVs. EAA has put up signs banning non licensed drivers from operating motorized vehicles but they are totally behind the curve with regard to electric bikes for example. They move thru the area with complete to disregard to speed, pedestrians and stay out areas.
It is hard enough protecting the planes from kids and unknowing and thoughtless attendees. Adding bikes and the like is just a BAD IDEA.

[teckelhut]

Shaking my head reading this. Im going to say my two cents worth and then no more as I'm sure their will be backlash. In large events like this scooters and bikes should only be used by event staff and security(for getting from point A to point B quickly) and the disabled/elderly/mobility impaired. Everyone else should walk. Walking is healthy for you. I am disabled but I walked everywhere there. And even lost a couple pounds doing so. Over and out.

[Jack Fleetwood]

I work as a photographer for EAA and we do have a limited amount of golf carts we can use if we need them. I probably use one 3 or 4 days out of the week. The rest of the time, I walk around, but in years past I would take the trams. This year, like other mentioned, I noticed if you didn't get on at one of the end-points, you weren't getting on. Very few people got off at the Vintage stops. I rode a tram one time this year. Maybe lack of trams or volunteers running them? For the tram operators here, do they still force everyone to get off at the end? Seems like they should.

I walked so much, the trams passed me a lot. I had to laugh because I was telling my girlfriend about one of the tram operators telling the same jokes over and over and that I'd learned his jokes. "My Dad was a man of few words. One day he said, Son...." At that exact moment, he came by and told that joke!

It was a hot year, but I thought it was a great event and I can't wait to go next year.

[CHICAGORANDY]

*I resemble that remark. I have a repertoire of some 75+ jokes that I go through each 6 hour shift. lol

This year we experimented with sending an empty tram out of the terminals about every 3rd or 4th tram for the very reason you state. On all the trams I conducted, when departing a terminal I tried to leave the very last bench in front of me empty, to assist in reducing the wait at the first stop. Figure that with about 75,000 folks a day through the gates and a tram only holding about 40 guests, we gotta make a LOT of trips.

[dougbush]

You know, if you doubled the speed of the trams and cut the time at the stops in half, you could transport twice as many passengers with the same number of volunteers and trams.

[Airmutt]

The trams are currently limited to 6-8 mph and are capable of going much faster but…..
1. One can’t go much faster simply due to all of the pedestrian traffic.
2. In a panic stop even at that low speed the weight of the tram just causes the tractor to slide.
3. The trams are a solid axle design. Just hitting the small bumps is quite a jolt. Last year when I drove I would slow down before the “hit” for passenger comfort. It was interesting to see how the tram reacted to the imperfections in the pavement. Sometimes what looked like a minor thing resulted in quite a jolt; other times not so much.

Historically they are always short tram drivers. Can’t speak for this year. Personally I think EAA needs to do something to entice more volunteers and have better fleet management. Just my two cents.

[DaleB]

Historically they are always short tram drivers.

Can't they get any taller ones?

Sorry, I just had to throw that in there for ChicagoRandy do add to his repertoire.

[Robbelc]

My first look at the forum since I got back and I am suprised, you guys have no idea what you have got. This my my first time from England and it was by far the best organised event I have been to in 40 years of going to shows. We used the UWO shuttle, seaplane shuttle plus the trams many times a day. Only gripe was that the trams were not running when we got there about 7am, and they need a tram stop closer to warbirds. The drivers and the 'conductor' were great and we never had much of a problem getting on. We ere there Saturday-Thursday and went to every part of the show. I would perfer to see less vehicles, particually in the exhibition area where there were some crazy drivers.

[mazdaP5]

My first look at the forum since I got back and I am suprised, you guys have no idea what you have got. This my my first time from England and it was by far the best organised event I have been to in 40 years of going to shows. We used the UWO shuttle, seaplane shuttle plus the trams many times a day. Only gripe was that the trams were not running when we got there about 7am, and they need a tram stop closer to warbirds. The drivers and the 'conductor' were great and we never had much of a problem getting on. We ere there Saturday-Thursday and went to every part of the show. I would perfer to see less vehicles, particually in the exhibition area where there were some crazy drivers.

Oshkosh ruins all other airshows, I'm with you on that.

[BardenAviation]

Driving Trams is stressful enough, let alone dealing with folks who seem to be oblivious to everything around them, causing safety issues and general disruption. We have volunteered for Trams for a few years now, but boy, it is a stressful time!

Here are a few clips from the madness-

https://youtu.be/NoXveJgOltk?si=BN2ZFL7EpRpRWXPr


Hope that things next year things smooth out a bit and folks try to understand there is a lot going on and we all need to work together!

[CHICAGORANDY]

Driving Trams is stressful enough, let alone dealing with folks who seem to be oblivious to everything around them, causing safety issues and general disruption. We have volunteered for Trams for a few years now, but boy, it is a stressful time!

Here are a few clips from the madness-

https://youtu.be/NoXveJgOltk?si=BN2ZFL7EpRpRWXPr


Hope that things next year things smooth out a bit and folks try to understand there is a lot going on and we all need to work together!

I agree 100% - and those video clips are from time frames when the place wasn't crowded. By mid afternoon the "streets" look like Times Square on New Year's eve.

[V.R]

I would agree about bikes/scooters on show grounds: there are so many people that riding one would be unsafe. That said, I would appreciate an opportunity to ride a bike to museum and/or to KidsVenture. Does anyone remember if there is a bike parking there and if those are accessible by bike/scooter?

[Auburntsts]

I would agree about bikes/scooters on show grounds: there are so many people that riding one would be unsafe. That said, I would appreciate an opportunity to ride a bike to museum and/or to KidsVenture. Does anyone remember if there is a bike parking there and if those are accessible by bike/scooter?

They’re both accessible by bike.

[V.R]

They’re both accessible by bike.
Didn't know that. Do they have bike/scooter parking there?

[Auburntsts]

Didn't know that. Do they have bike/scooter parking there?

IIRC, Pioneer Airport had a bike corral, but in reality, it might have just been where the bikes congregated, and wasn't anything formal. I don't think the Museum has any designated bike parking. That said I've been to both by bike and it's not an issue. For the Museum we went in though the back and there were a number of bikes parked here and there along the walkways.

[dougbush]

There is a bike rack in front of the EAA Museum and a place to park bikes near KidVenture.

[V.R]

IIRC, Pioneer Airport had a bike corral, but in reality, it might have just been where the bikes congregated, and wasn't anything formal. I don't think the Museum has any designated bike parking. That said I've been to both by bike and it's not an issue. For the Museum we went in though the back and there were a number of bikes parked here and there along the walkways.
Interesting! How would you go there from the Scholler? I was under impression they close Pelton Pkwy, that goes to Kids Venture, and allow busses only during the show? Again, I do not remember but I thought I saw orange cones there... so assumed its closed for wheeled traffic... If you could scoot there that would help, definitely

[Auburntsts]

Depends on from where in Scholler. If on the West side (teal route on the map) I’d take Stits North to Snow Berry, go through the cutout over to Sleepy Hollow then down Waukau and cross at Goyke just past SoS bros and take Foundation down to Pelton. If on the East side (Green route), then I’d head North up Forest Home past the main gate to Waukau (you could also cut through the bus park) and cross at Pelton. Pelton is not closed at all as I’m a driver for the Homebuilt welcome wagon and drop people off at the museum and kidventure all the time during AirVenture. They do block off Main Auto Parking Road to vehicle traffic (Red line) right at the intersection of it, Foundation and Waukau although you might be able to get through on a bike.

[V.R]

Depends on from where in Scholler. If on the West side (teal route on the map) I’d take Stits North to Snow Berry, go through the cutout over to Sleep Hollow then down Waukau and cross at Goyke just past SoS bros and take Foundation down to Pelton. If on the East side (Green route), then I’d head North up Forest Home past the main gate to Waukau (you could also cut through the bus park) and cross at Pelton. Pelton is not closed at all as I’m a driver for the Homebuilt welcome wagon and drop people off at the museum and kidventure all the time during AirVenture. They do block off Main Auto Parking Road to vehicle traffic (Red line) right at the intersection of it, Foundation and Waukau although you might be able to get through on a bike.
Awesome, thank you!