Renting out homebuilts?

[Aerco]

Hypothetical question: can an amateur built experimental be legally rented out for money? (Let's assume it gets 100 hour inspections.)

[Todd copeland]

Absolutely not legally

[Aerco]

Can anyone point me to the appropriate FARs?

[Tom Downey]

EXP aircraft can not be used in a commercial operations. rental aircraft are a commercial operation.

The rule is 21.191 Experimental certificates.

[martymayes]

Hypothetical question: can an amateur built experimental be legally rented out for money? (Let's assume it gets 100 hour inspections.)

But you can loan it out for FREE! I'll email my address.......

[rwanttaja]

14CFR 91.319, "Aircraft Having Experimental Certificates: Operating Limitations"
(a) no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate--
(1)...
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

So you can't rent it out. However, you can sell partial interest in the airplane, form a flying club, and have the members compensate the club for the costs involved in using their airplane.

Ron Wanttaja

[hydroguy2]

Sec. 91.319

Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.


(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate--
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that--
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall--
(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft;
(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and
(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers.
[(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i)(1) for compensation or hire to-
(1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309; or
(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.
(f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i) of this chapter, except in accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.
(g) No person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i)(1) of this chapter to tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire or to conduct flight training for compensation or hire in an aircraft which that persons provides unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has-
(1) Been inspected by a certificated repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA; or
(2) Received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.
(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.
(1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at any time.
(2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the deviation requested.
(i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.]

[CarlOrton]

The only way (sorry; can't quote FARs...) is if someone obtains a LODA (letter of deviation authority) where they can provide transition training in an experimental. Then, yes, they can charge for rental of the aircraft. But ONLY with the instructor for purposes of transition training.

[steveinindy]

But you can loan it out for FREE! I'll email my address.......

Darn it Marty! You beat me to it. LOL


However, you can sell partial interest in the airplane, form a flying club, and have the members compensate the club for the costs involved in using their airplane.

Hmmmm....interesting. If someone were to take friends along on a trip (say to Florida) is it still legal for them to split the cost of fuel?

[Hiperbiper]

Hmmmm....interesting. If someone were to take friends along on a trip (say to Florida) is it still legal for them to split the cost of fuel?[/QUOTE]

Don't ask don't tell.

[steveinindy]

Hmmmm....interesting. If someone were to take friends along on a trip (say to Florida) is it still legal for them to split the cost of fuel?

Don't ask don't tell.[/QUOTE]

That's what I figured.

[Aerco]

14CFR 91.319, "Aircraft Having Experimental Certificates: Operating Limitations"
(a) no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate--
(1)...
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

So you can't rent it out. However, you can sell partial interest in the airplane, form a flying club, and have the members compensate the club for the costs involved in using their airplane.

Ron Wanttaja

You would not be carrying persons or property for hire. The pilot RENTS the airplane. Nothing more. That clause seems not apply. Of course you cannot use it to fly people around for hire. Different scenario.

But I guess this one does: (f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i) of this chapter, except in accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.

[kscessnadriver]

EXP aircraft can not be used in a commercial operations. rental aircraft are a commercial operation.

The rule is 21.191 Experimental certificates.

Renting an aircraft is not a commercial operation.

[Tom Downey]

Renting an aircraft is not a commercial operation.

FAR 1.1
commercial operator, means a person who, for compensation or hire, engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property, other than as an air carrier or foreign air carrier or under the authority of Part 375 of this title. Where it is doubtful that an operation is for “compensation or hire”, the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit.

[tonycondon]

right and when a pilot is simply renting a plane he is not carrying persons or property for hire.

[hydroguy2]

In the Op limits you will find this statement. This is the one that does not allow for renting...except for people with a LODA allowing training.

(f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i) of this chapter, except in accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.

[MickYoumans]

If someone were to take friends along on a trip (say to Florida) is it still legal for them to split the cost of fuel?
I don't see where that should be a problem. There is nothing stopping anyone from buying fuel. Just because a friend wants to store his fuel in my airplane, I won't hold that against him. ;)

Regarding renting an experimental plane, there is another angle that has not been discussed here. Even if it were legal, which we have already established that it is not, would they be "checked out" and certified to fly the experimental plane? Most rental planes in my area are Cessna's and Piper's that just about everyone has been endorsed to fly. I have a friend with an experimental T18 that I have flown in the right seat. Would that certify me to fly it solo? I don't think so. Another angle is insurance. I'm sure that would be a big issue too.

[Eric Witherspoon]

Carl has it right - E-AB's most certainly CAN be made available for rent. But only for "transition training" purposes. So y'all don't freak out - here's some links to some RV's you can rent:

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/trainfly.htm
http://rvtraining.com
http://letsflyrvtraining.com
http://rvtransition.com

I've heard one of these even has an exception to the exception - can offer initial tailwheel training. But that guy has thousands of hours in RV's, so don't get any ideas.

Yes, there are other makes/models of homebuilts that have got the LODA's.
Here is a Sonex:
http://aircrafttransitiontraining.com

[Tom Downey]

right and when a pilot is simply renting a plane he is not carrying persons or property for hire.

remember FAR 1.1 says "commercial operator, means a person who, for compensation or hire", and the FAA believes that logable time is compensation,

[Frank Giger]

They're not paying for half the gas.

They're buying a pencil from you. At a remarkable mark-up. Just make sure to actually hand them a pencil.

;)

I kind of grin at the "densely populated" blurb in the regs. Okay, so I get that Downtown Birmingham is "densely populated;" but what about suburbs? They have loads of places to land safely in the event of an emergency....

[rosiejerryrosie]

It's one of those regs that you know it when you see it. If you hit something while making an 'off airport landing', its 'densely populated', if you don't hit anything, it was not 'densely populated' ;)

[Dave Prizio]

Let's be clear here. The general rule is that an expermental airplane may not be rented. The exception to the general rule is that a local FSDO may issue a LODA letter to permit a particular experimental airplane to be made available for rent along with an instructor for the purpose of transition training.

Even the LODA letter does not make the plane available for rent as you might rent a 172 from your local FBO for a pleasure flight. It is for flight instruction for the purpose of transition training. The exception is narrlowly tailored for the purpose of giving experimental airplane builders the opportunity to get instruction in a similar airplane before they start flying their own.

Dave Prizio