Time to AirVenture to leave Wisconsin?

[Wsquare]

Question: Are you somewhat concerned by all the things going on in Wisconsin. Kenosha. Waukesha. Madison. Milwaukee. Etc. Maybe it is time for EAA to consider leaving Wisconsin, and taking their (our) money with them. Maybe it is time to send signals to politicians that are accepting the kinds of things we are seeing in Wisconsin. There are plenty of states that are not making the kind of negative news that Wisconsin has been making, that would make good candidates for hosting EAA Headquarters, and a "New AirVenture". Why not think outside the box and consider the possibilities. New opportunities. New scenery. New food vendors. New logistics. New destinations. Etc. Etc. Maybe some place like South Dakota - perhaps Rapid City area. Beautiful area. Lots of recreation possibilities. Large airfield. No state income tax. (P.S. I'm not a resident of South Dakota, just a thought to get some ideas going).

[CHICAGORANDY]

No - I am NOT in the least bit concerned - nor do I believe there is substantial reason to blame "politicians" for "accepting" the felonious actions of non-politicians. I view AirVenture as one of the most open, friendly, NON-political, accommodating and welcoming to ALL events one could imagine.

[MEdwards]

Excellent, Randy. And let’s keep it that way.
Mike E

[rwanttaja]

Infrastructure and logistical effects would be overwhelming. The airport at Oshkosh has been optimized for the show. All the permanent structures would need to be erected at the new site, and storage for temporary structures would need to be built. A new camping facility would be needed, procedures for crowd and aircraft control would be necessary. The year-round planning support would be much more difficult remotely, unless the plan is to move EAA itself (and the museum...) to the new location. Yes, it would require new food vendors, but their ability to support such a massive effort would be in question. Oshkosh and environs are QUITE accustomed to supporting "The EAA," and people at the new location wouldn't know what they are getting into.

The exception might be places that are already accustomed to putting on big shows like this. Sturgis comes to mind. But it really should be somewhere where the big show is put on at the local airport.

The fact that there is no income tax in South Dakota is immaterial; EAA is a corporation and they're treated differently.

Ron Wanttaja

[CHICAGORANDY]

Excellent, Randy. And let’s keep it that way.
Mike E

I mean really.... I live IN Chicago proper, inner-city, Southwest Side..... Does ANYONE out there think I feel 'unsafe' in Oshkosh or anywhere in a MANY mile radius of there??? LOL

[Kyle Boatright]

I mean really.... I live IN Chicago proper, inner-city, Southwest Side..... Does ANYONE out there think I feel 'unsafe' in Oshkosh or anywhere in a MANY mile radius of there??? LOL

I think the intent was to "send a message to politicians".

I do not think abandoning 10's of millions of dollars of infrastructure at OSH, relocating EAA, and throwing away a 50 year tradition is the way to "send a message to politicians".

Somehow that idea smacks of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Wsquare]

Some points of clarification seem to be in order. This is not meant to get anyone excited. Only to bring a concept forward for thoughtful consideration.

I believe that as a group of aviators, (who take pride in self responsibility as evidenced by the wonderful condition of AirVenture grounds with every little piece of trash picked up), that the recent events in Wisconsin provide an opportunity for self reflection, and a chance to ask ourselves, "At what point do we, as a collective group, draw the line on politicians, such as District Attorneys, that are in fact elected, that are pushing for "no cash bail or low bail", and turning repeat criminals out on society, to commit such mayhem as mowing down innocent children in a Christmas Parade?".

If we ask ourselves such questions, again as a group of responsible aviators, then a next question perhaps could be "What can we do as a group, to send a signal, that this type of social action (ie, no cash bail and/or low bail) is not acceptable to us?". In my opinion, about the only way to get the attention of politicians is with money, or lack of money if it is removed from their coffers.

This is not about feeling "unsafe" at AirVenture. If this is an interpretation from the initial post, then it would be good to carefully reread the initial post.

In terms of "no state income taxes in South Dakota", this has nothing to do with EAA as a corporate entity. Rather, it is about EAA employees, that would realize an instant (approx.) 7% pay increase, since they would not pay income tax. However, at this point it is best not to get tunnel vision for a single state/location, since the use of South Dakota was only an example. However, South Dakota is certainly pro-business, and the Black Hills offer many new dimensions to consider for such an event.

In terms of the infrastructure, this is a reasonable point of discussion. While I would tend to disagree with the noted number of "10's of millions of dollars of infrastructure". Let's step back and really consider what is there, simply because the location is an airport. Versus what has been added, in support of AirVenture (a once a year event). I would submit that if one looks through this unbiased prism, that the main infrastructure items are already there because we are talking about an airport. The camping area is not that expensive, and it is possible to move the vendor buildings. In terms of EAA moving, yes, the museum would be a factor for deliberation. Offices are just offices, and can be easily substituted. In addition, when courting other states, it may be that they would offer "enticing packages, including matching grants" that help with the economic implications - if not completely offset the cost of moving. In addition, it seems as though all one has to do is mention that the "New AirVenture" will be "energy efficient and green", and Federal money will probably pour into the EAA coffers to help make it happen based on the trillions that are being dolled out.

Traditions are just that. Traditions. At some point, it is nice to move on, and find new possibilities, and opportunities. Instead of remaining locked into the same old mindset. Especially with all the negative national headlines that are associated with Wisconsin.

Finally, I would add that simply talking about this, and exploring opportunities, especially at the EAA administrative level (ie, letting the Wisconsin powers that be -- know that EAA is considering new options) could send a message, in and of itself, to the political powers in Wisconsin. I would further submit, that if other businesses did the same thing, perhaps things would change for the better. In other words, vote with feet, and money.

These are complex issues, and we as aviators may want to consider stepping up to the plate, and convey our lack of confidence in elected officials that turn criminals loose to prey on society. As aviators, we can do this in order to press for change. Just was we have done and continue to do with other political issues, such as Basic Med, Unleaded Aviation Fuel, Sport Pilot, etc. At what point is Enough - Enough?

Take care...

[rwanttaja]

I think the intent was to "send a message to politicians".

I do not think abandoning 10's of millions of dollars of infrastructure at OSH, relocating EAA, and throwing away a 50 year tradition is the way to "send a message to politicians".
Reminds me of the (probably apocryphal) story about a Hollywood producer, when a screenwriter was pressing a movie project on it because "It sends an important message."

The producer supposedly said, "If you want to send a message, use Western Union....."

Ron Wanttaja

[MEdwards]

EAA should not be used to send messages to politicians on any subject besides aviation and the association itself.

[Dana]

I'm quite sure we could come up with a long list of corrupt or incompetent politicians and officials in every one of the 50 states, it's a sad fact of life. But it's not EAA's problem, and not something EAA should be concerning itself with, unless it directly impacts Airventure or aviation. EAA's charter doesn't include being "woke" and I hope it never does, with all the silly witch hunts it inevitably leads to.

[rwanttaja]

Some points of clarification seem to be in order. This is not meant to get anyone excited. Only to bring a concept forward for thoughtful consideration.

Perhaps. But what it READS like is someone trying to start a political argument while pretending it wasn't their intent.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

In terms of "no state income taxes in South Dakota", this has nothing to do with EAA as a corporate entity. Rather, it is about EAA employees, that would realize an instant (approx.) 7% pay increase, since they would not pay income tax.

Wikipedia says EAA has 872 employees. Do you expect EAA to pay for them to move to South Dakota? Or is EAA just going to fire most of them and re-hire replacements in South Dakota...at South Dakota labor rates, instead of Wisconsin's? So, yes, the corporate elite will see a rise in pay. The rest just see the unemployment line.

Ron Wanttaja

[Kyle Boatright]

Wikipedia says EAA has 872 employees. Do you expect EAA to pay for them to move to South Dakota? Or is EAA just going to fire most of them and re-hire replacements in South Dakota...at South Dakota labor rates, instead of Wisconsin's? So, yes, the corporate elite will see a rise in pay. The rest just see the unemployment line.

Ron Wanttaja

The new voice of the proletariat!

[rwanttaja]

The new voice of the proletariat!

"A riot iss an ugly ting....und it's time ve got one schtarted!"

Ron "Sed-a-Give?" Wanttaja

[CarlOrton]

Ron "Sed-a-Give?" Wanttaja
Frau Bleucher. Neeiigghhhh…

[WLIU]

Most people do not realize that EAA was one of the first, if not THE first, aviation organization to be 100% inclusive to anyone who wanted to join, regardless of race, color, etc. In the 1950's Neil Loving was welcomed into the small but growing EAA. If you do not know who Neil Loving was, please look him up. His airplane is still in the EAA Museum.

You can argue that EAA provides an example that political organizations could aspire to.

Best of luck,

Wes

[keen9]

No.

[L-188]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I always try to remain positive in my posts but in this case I'll make an exception. I see your thinly veiled political slant to this. Why not put it in those terms ? I'll go out on a limb here and say if you put it that way, 90% of EAA members would demand a move to South Dakota. Or Florida. Or Arizona. And you can't beat the political climate in any of those places. Maybe we could vote on it. Nah, some people like it here, there'd be too much voter fraud. Good luck with your proposal.

[rv8bldr]

Frau Bleucher. Neeiigghhhh…

Put...the candle.....back.....

[flyrgreen]

Dana's post bottom-lines the situation quite well for me-- making political stances & conversation is always a quick way to enter a seriously stinky rabbit hole, which will not end well. For that, Airventure would not hold up well, and is not their bailiwick. That said, I'm stopping short from saying it's not our problem. These people in Wisconsin are our neighbors, and they're screwing the pooch big-time. How bad does something need to get before you're concerned enough to say/do something? My observations are that usually it's after it's too late.
Randy, the post did not say only politicians are at fault; it said they are coddling the felons, which is a also a crime. And the post was not talking about feeling unsafe at Airventure. So sorry to hear that you are "not concerned at all".

[rwanttaja]

Dana's post bottom-lines the situation quite well for me-- making political stances & conversation is always a quick way to enter a seriously stinky rabbit hole, which will not end well. For that, Airventure would not hold up well, and is not their bailiwick. That said, I'm stopping short from saying it's not our problem. These people in Wisconsin are our neighbors, and they're screwing the pooch big-time. How bad does something need to get before you're concerned enough to say/do something? My observations are that usually it's after it's too late.
Randy, the post did not say only politicians are at fault; it said they are coddling the felons, which is a also a crime. And the post was not talking about feeling unsafe at Airventure. So sorry to hear that you are "not concerned at all".

The issue is not whether Times are hard/politicians are bad/judges are drunkards in Wisconsin/Arizona/Narnia, etc.; the issue is that discussions of these sorts are specifically prohibited by the governing rules of this forum.

"The EAA Forums Forums are strictly for aviation related posts. Through much discussion and observation of other online forums, the decision was made to focus solely on aviation. Non-aviation discussions can be exceedingly challenging to moderate in an appropriate, open and positive way. Although non-aviation discussions can sometimes be fun, important or entertaining, they are discouraged from EAA Forums and may be removed. In particular, steer clear of politics and religion. "

http://eaaforums.org/misc.php?do=showrules

If you WANT to talk politics, there are literally thousands of forum pages where you can do so. We only have a couple of sites where we can talk about homebuilt airplanes, and we don't need political rancor poisoning the well.

Ron Wanttaja

[Kyle Boatright]

If you WANT to talk politics, there are literally thousands of forum pages where you can do so. We only have a couple of sites where we can talk about homebuilt airplanes, and we don't need political rancor poisoning the well.

Ron Wanttaja

Absolutely true. I've never seen a political discussion on the internet finish in a civil place. Those discussions simply don't belong on an aviation board, because they will not advance aviation, aviators, the EAA, or any of the things we come here for.

[Wsquare]

This is only political, to the extent that people make it political. In reality, we are visiting about the location of AirVenture / EAA, which is certainly aviation related. Perhaps there was “discussion” about moving away from Rockford. Nothing is permanent, and there can be compelling reasons to consider another location. Perhaps many new opportunities. BTW, there are many states that are not putting on the kind of show that some states are, in terms of revolving door criminal system. South Dakota among many of the others seems to have some accountability. Also, no lock downs, so the show can go on for those that want to attend. Those that don’t, can stay home. Beautiful recreation area in the Black Hills. Very capable airport. Many times, change is good. Was it good for EAA to leave Rockford? What are the rational advantages and disadvantages of moving AirVenture and/or EAA?

[rwanttaja]

This is only political, to the extent that people make it political.


...many states that are not putting on the kind of show that some states are, in terms of revolving door criminal system.

You're decrying people who make it political, yet you made it political on your very first post and continue to this one. Kinda smacks of hypocrisy, don't it?

You're telling us that the event needs to be moved out of Oshkosh due to this supposed "revolving door criminal system." You're obviously an expert on this. So tell us, then, what the impact is on the annual EAA convention? How many thousands of people are victims of crimes due to this "revolving door criminal system" during the 7-day run of the convention?


Was it good for EAA to leave Rockford? What are the rational advantages and disadvantages of moving AirVenture and/or EAA?

Right back at you. So far, the only reason you've given for a shift are political ones. Leaving those aside, how would EAA and its members benefit by a shift in venue? Considering it'd probably cost EAA tens of millions of dollars to uproot and move....what's in it for the organization? What's in it for the membership?

You might want to research *why* EAA shifted from Milwaukee to Rockford, and hence to Oshkosh. Hint: It didn't have anything to do with political theory.

Ron Wanttaja

[azmedic85355]

I had to check the post date on this…could have sworn it would be 01APR….ooooof. Might as well just lock this bad boy up rn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[BJC]

Was it good for EAA to leave Rockford? Yes. Much more room for growth at Oshkosh than Rockford, even though I disapprove of the political processes that allowed the EAA grounds to grow.
What are the rational advantages and disadvantages of moving AirVenture and/or EAA? One advantage would be to have a more centrally located venue. Disadvantages include the need to replicate the physical infrastructure, the relocation cost, and the need to reestablish all the human infrastructure needed.

Aside from all that, were it up to me, I would keep it in Oshkosh, because I really like the people there.


BJC

[rwanttaja]

One advantage would be to have a more centrally located venue. Disadvantages include the need to replicate the physical infrastructure, the relocation cost, and the need to reestablish all the human infrastructure needed.

Moving to a more centralized location would be a valid reason for moving, but I'm not sure how important it is. Here's a map of US population density:
9080
Obviously, moving to South Dakota like the OP keeps harping about would be a dumb move....going opposite to where the people are. The fact that it would be a ~1500 mile flight from California vs. a ~2000 mile flight isn't that big of an advantage. Most of the people are East and South of Oshkosh, not West.

Visually integrating the map (fancy word for eyeballing) indicates a more-central location would be Ohio, Kentucky, or Tennessee. But as BJC says, the relocation cost would be huge. States (for better or for worse...) will subsidize major companies to get them to move there, but I don't think EAA qualifies. A single one-week event a year not likely to be all that attractive.

And, keep in mind, this is an *aviation* event. Participants are better-prepared than most to travel to a non-centralized location.

Ron Wanttaja

[Dana]

Not that I think moving the event is desirable or even feasible, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, the current population center of the US is Hartville, Missouri, a town of 600. East-west, it's not that different from Oshkosh, though of course it's much farther south, almost in Arkansas.

I wonder what the population center of homebuilt aircraft owners in the US is? There must be a way to convert aircraft registration zip code in the FAA database to lat/long and find the average. Ron, you're the database expert...

[rwanttaja]

I wonder what the population center of homebuilt aircraft owners in the US is? There must be a way to convert aircraft registration zip code in the FAA database to lat/long and find the average. Ron, you're the database expert...
That's beyond me, but try this:
9081
Whatever the answer is, it ain't South Dakota... :-)

Edit: The 1000+ is actually a bit misleading. Washington State has 1240 homebuilt, but Florida has 1950 and California and Texas are both around 2500.

Ron "Mercator" Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Whatever the answer is, it ain't South Dakota... :-)
OK, I found a list of the geodetic center of each state. I took the arithmetic mean of the latitude of each state and multiplied them by the number of aircraft in each state, and divided the result by the total number of homebuilts. I repeated the process on the longitudes. Someone may have a better process.

I get 38.4 degrees north, and 97.3 degrees west. This is ~50 miles north of Wichita, Kansas.

However, this factors in Alaska and Hawaii. If we go just to the 48 contiguous states, the mean point slides to roughly midway between Wichita and Kansas City.

Mind you, my method is pretty crude. It doesn't, for instance, accommodate the fact that the POPULATION centers of each state differ from the geodetic centers (the West Coast states are good examples). Nor does it reflect that the Earth is a sphere. And you're STILL left with all the infrastructure costs of moving the show.

Anybody who thinks political activism should trump fiscal responsibility should be running for the EAA Board so they can make these decisions.

Ron "Mean Man" Wanttaja

[Dana]

I knew you couldn't leave it alone... :)

[rwanttaja]

I knew you couldn't leave it alone... :)

Shoot, dude... you KNOW that graphic is going to end up in one my magazine articles. You just helped me make a couple of hundred bucks.
And no, I ain't gonna share. 9082

Ron Wanttaja

[Wsquare]

This is an interesting conversation. I also followed up on the initial population map, and did a bit of checking on census data, and found the same result, that the population based center of the country is near Hartville, MO. Then, with awareness that Kansas has a strong aviation foundation, I slid the map to the west a bit, and started searching Kansas possibilities via Foreflight. Which happens to correlate well with the added map, tied to the concept of geometric center of homebuilt experimental aircraft, which is a brilliant analysis and adds interesting insights into the discussion. I checked the usual suspects - Topeka, Wichita, Salina. Wichita is class C and after attending Sun-N-Fun this year, the complete grounding of all aviation activity during arrival and departure of Amazon aircraft was a real buzzkill for the airshow. So, Wichita would present a challenge. There are a lot of smaller airports in the area, but seem to be just that, small and runway limited.

Salina would seem to offer some interesting possibilities, with a really big runway (12,301 x 150), and multiple smaller runways. But the airspace is a bit complicated with nearby MOA activity and especially a Restricted area six miles to the southwest. But imagine what one could do with that size runway for an airshow - the airport was even able serve as a backup to the Lincoln, NE emergency space shuttle landing site, if the shuttle missed Lincoln for some reason.

Topeka is an interesting thought. Near Kansas City for those that travel via commercial, lots of open space, interesting runway configuration, probably not ideal runway configuration, but may have some potential. Perhaps it would be a candidate for further study.

Not sure about the "business friendly" conditions of Kansas, which needs to be considered for any type of enterprise, and necessarily involves political considerations. They do encourage businesses with aviation profiles to locate there, but they do have a state income tax. While Kansas did have some degree of lockdown, more than South Dakota which remained open for business, they didn't have the level of lockdown that many "blue" states and localities realized (ie, mostly open for business). Kansas City has had it's share of unrest, and difficulty in coming to grips with crime, but mostly on the Missouri side of the river (ie, downtown KCMO). While Kansas has some interesting recreational opportunities, it would be hard to compete with a destination such as the Black Hills of South Dakota.

An interesting byproduct of exploring ideas and options, is that it can help to identify some of the shortcomings of the existing arrangements at Oshkosh, but also the many strengths of Wittman Field - especially the runway infrastructure and orientation, and associated ability to have 3 active runways at a time, while also allowing attendees to move easily between the runways, according to their preferences. But nothing is perfect, and there is always room for improvement. And there are always people that are looking for new opportunities - including opportunities to engage in business with states and locals that reflect their values and beliefs - especially as related to current social unrest and criminal justice systems. There is no permanent, change is constant, and there are many factors that a business enterprise uses to identify candidate locations for possible relocation. Exercises such as this can help a given business enterprise, such as EAA, operate in a more resilient manner, and staying nimble helps an enterprise negotiate with existing political entities, to secure the best deal possible, in terms of support for the given enterprise.

[rwanttaja]

An interesting byproduct of exploring ideas and options, is that it can help to identify some of the shortcomings of the existing arrangements at Oshkosh, but also the many strengths of Wittman Field - especially the runway infrastructure and orientation, and associated ability to have 3 active runways at a time, while also allowing attendees to move easily between the runways, according to their preferences. But nothing is perfect, and there is always room for improvement.

Good post, and let me leverage off the paragraph quoted above.

What kind of fundamental improvements do folks think are needed at Airventure/Oshkosh?

I'm not looking for little suggestions, such as better food or less-corny jokes on the trams. What change to the basic design of the event do you think would make it a better experience?

Examples might be moving the exhibition buildings elsewhere, juggling antique/classic, ultralight, or homebuilt parking areas, changing the road systems, etc.

Ron Wanttaja

[Airmutt]

That’s easy…
Better access to the grounds from Hwy 41
Improved parking: EAA needs to figure out how to expedite parking. Consider the creation of a major lot near the new UL area.
Improved traffic management in and around the grounds. That could include the modification of existing roads or construction of new roads. Consider creation of pedestrian routes to include pedestrian bridges over roads.
Improved people moving methodology - that’s a thread to itself!
One could argue that AV is at or is close to critical mass. The main exhibit area is just too congested. Not sure how to crack that nut. A second exhibit area to the south????

[BJC]

What kind of fundamental improvements do folks think are needed at Airventure/Oshkosh?


Remove the general public from the flight line.
Shorten the airshow.
Do not have the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels.
Eliminate the non-aviation vendors.
All of the access / parking / people moving that Airmutt said.


BJC

[L-188]

WS, Have you considered starting a new organization? Maybe the "Freedom Aviation Association"? Oh wait a minute that anacronym has already been taken........

[Kyle Boatright]

Shorten the airshow.
Do not have the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels.

BJC

These are the two big ones for me.

But I'd push back on eliminating the non-aviation vendors. How else am I gonna get 5 minutes in a massage chair or an extended foot massage if we disallow those vendors? Seriously, there are always non-aviation things (Cobra replicas, for instance) that intrigue me and don't detract from the aviation stuff.

[Rod Schneider]

Remove the general public from the flight line.
Shorten the airshow.
Do not have the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels.
Eliminate the non-aviation vendors.
All of the access / parking / people moving that Airmutt said.


BJC

I totally agree with this!

[steve]

No need to change anything. I like HBC exactly where it is - remote and free of crowds. There is one thing: Change the flight path of those frickin' helicopters to southwest of the tower.

[melann]

You guys are forgetting the main purpose of Airventure. It's all about the money and the public. It hasn't been a "Fly-In" for many years.

[Kyle Boatright]

No need to change anything. I like HBC exactly where it is - remote and free of crowds. There is one thing: Change the flight path of those frickin' helicopters to southwest of the tower.

I think it is funny when airplane people complain about helicopter noise, then get up in arms when residents complain about airport noise.

The only flying machines that ever bothered me with noise are:

1) The ReMax balloon that buzzed me about 50' high one quiet morning and fired the burner when it was right over my head (and I was unaware of its presence). I just about peed myself.

2) The JSTARS that occasionally do pattern work at the nearby Air Force/Navy base. 1970's era turbojets are LOUD when they are 800' over your house every 10 minutes for an hour. At night. ;-)

[BusyLittleShop]

Dear EAA... you're welcome to move to California... we got Castle and Mather and McClellan open...

McClellan
9085

Mather
9087

Castle
9086

[rwanttaja]

Dear EAA... you're welcome to move to California... we got Castle and McClellan open...
Well, THAT ought to get people of a particular political bent going.... :-)

Does highlight one feature wsquare mentioned; you'd just as soon have an airport WITHOUT scheduled airline service. Otherwise you'll be ticking off various airlines and making the FAA look closely at your safety margins.

Though I got to say, the first time I went to AirVenture, I flew into Oshkosh on a scheduled flight.

The west coast has a crap-ton of leftover military fields that would work. Arlington and Chehalis in Washington State, Tillamook in Oregon, etc. Tillamook even has a restored blimp hangar, and the Spruce Goose parked at another airport 35 miles away.

Of course, they're ALL kinda far from the centroid....

Ron Wanttaja

[Wsquare]

The CV-19 pandemic was, in a certain sense, a massive earthquake, and we are still being impacted by the aftershocks. Or perhaps another analogy — we are flying along in a Cessna 172 enjoying the views, and unknowingly fly directly into the wake vortex of a fully loaded 747. Unfortunately, there is a possibility of more CV-19 variants that introduce more waves across the globe and US. Think back a mere 4 years, and consider what you would have thought if someone told you that AirVenture 2020 was going to be completely cancelled. Unbelievable, and yet it did happen. And at the time of cancellation, there were discussions on this forum that questioned if EAA would be able to survive the cancellation of AV2020, due to lack of revenue stream.
As aviators, we all know the importance of having “alternate plans”, in the case of an unexpected event. We don’t plan on something going wrong, but we prepare for it, should something adverse occur. Suppose another variant occurs, and Wisconsin decides to lockdown large events (yes - a political decision), while other states remain open for business (also, a political decision). Is this the equivalent of flying to a destination airport, finding that it is closed due to a runway mishap, and then need to divert to an alternate? Could EAA survive another cancelled AV? Should EAA have alternate plans in place for resiliency in the face of potentially adverse conditions?
One of the messages on this thread has challenged us to consider fundamental suggestions/ideas and therefore "think big", about AV. And, a very interesting analysis has been offered, that helps to understand the geographic distribution of experimental aviators. Responses have been broad and diverse. Some themes seem to be emerging, such as “people logistics” (how to move people and traffic in an efficient and comfortable manner), considerations for the air show and related issues, and even comments about sustainability of AV (ie, has it reached a critical mass), and if AV is even a “fly-in” anymore. All very interesting and valid thoughts. It is these later comments on sustainability of AV that potentially present the greatest opportunity for “big ideas" about AV. We are all passionate about aviation, and AirVenture, and this is precisely the reason that big ideas can be helpful.
AirVenture is a massive event and undertaking, that occurs in the form a “pulse”. In other words, everything is quiet and serene for most of the year at Wittman field, and then all of the sudden, there is this massive event for a short period of time (peaking for about one week), and then it reverts back to the quiet and serene conditions. Perhaps what we have is a "massive pulse event” that occurs within what might be considered as a “fragile political environment”. In this case, a fragile political environment can be inferred from the somewhat chaotic events that have been occurring in Wisconsin, themselves potentially tied to the pandemic, and the reason for the original post of this thread.
Within this context, the opportunity still remains for “big ideas” and fundamental improvements for AV. One idea would be for EAA to complete a “sustainability and resiliency” study for AV. What changes can be made to enhance sustainability and resiliency? Renewable/solar energy? FEWER and electric only golf carts? Major focus on alternate lower lead aviation fuels so aviators can learn more about what is happening in this area of development. Another idea would be to ‘flatten the curve” - where have we heard that concept before? What if AirVenture were to become a “rolling fly-in”? An “extended fly-in” that lasts for a month, instead of a week? And then, during the rolling fly-in, different themes are emphasized, so that people could identify the theme(s) that they prefer and schedule their time accordingly. Would this be more resilient to upsets? The huge crowd, and thus people logistics would be ameliorated. Perhaps this type of event would be more like a “fly-in”. Another idea is that perhaps EAA should consider a “back-up location” and event plan, such that a “scaled down” AV could be held in a different state, should Wisconsin decide to lockdown large events, while other states remain open. Just some thoughts. (P.S. - yes - Cali would get the political bent going, and for some reason I can't get rid of the numbers - sorry for that.)

[Kyle Boatright]

[LIST=1]
The CV-19 pandemic w...]

Thanks for your input.

No.

[Eric Page]

Arlington and Chehalis in Washington State...
Umm... Chehalis?! Are you thinking of somewhere else? CLS has a single 5,000x140 runway and is crammed between a Walmart shopping center and a golf course.

[rwanttaja]

Umm... Chehalis?! Are you thinking of somewhere else? CLS has a single 5,000x140 runway and is crammed between a Walmart shopping center and a golf course.

I think I must have been thinking of elsewhere. Probably Shelton.

I haven't been getting out much, lately.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Berson]

Moving Airventure to more central USA seems unlikely. But the west coast traveler still does need extra help (being twice as far as the east coast to travel to Oshkosh). EAA could certainly help out with improved transportation by airline to Oshkosh. But since Oshkosh has no air service, and Appleton is a huge pain extra connection, the obvious choice for direct flights is the larger Milwaukee airport. But believe it or not there is no daily bus service from Milwaukee to Oshkosh. (yes, I know Lamers has that one daily bus at 7am for the Airventure week)
EAA Airventure could get more bus service options from the Milwaukee airport, please.

edit: forum was down most of yesterday.

[FlyingRon]

Actually, OSH had airline service at the same time as the EAA in the glory days. Why do you think there's a terminal up the north end of the field? They ran the same puddle jumper flights in there during the show as they ran the rest of the year.

[azmedic85355]

Moving Airventure to more central USA seems unlikely. But the west coast traveler still does need extra help (being twice as far as the east coast to travel to Oshkosh). EAA could certainly help out with improved transportation by airline to Oshkosh. But since Oshkosh has no air service, and Appleton is a huge pain extra connection, the obvious choice for direct flights is the larger Milwaukee airport. But believe it or not there is no daily bus service from Milwaukee to Oshkosh. (yes, I know Lamers has that one daily bus at 7am for the Airventure week)
EAA Airventure could get more bus service options from the Milwaukee airport, please.

edit: forum was down most of yesterday.

Unless EAA is subsidizing the commercial air service the airlines have no incentive to upgauge or add flights to ATW or MKE. If it was a money maker for the airlines they would be doing it already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bill Berson]

Unless EAA is subsidizing the commercial air service the airlines have no incentive to upgauge or add flights to ATW or MKE. If it was a money maker for the airlines they would be doing it already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I didn’t say anything about adding flights. My comment was about the lack of ground transportation from MKE. About the only choice is a rental car, just for one person, and is inefficient and not needed after arrival if camping with a tent. This difficulty of getting to Oshkosh applies to international flights also.

[Eric Page]

...Appleton is a huge pain extra connection...
I've flown commercial into Appleton and taken the bus to the OSH grounds, and didn't find it painful in the least. The bus was waiting for the flight to arrive, we stowed our bags underneath and got underway. Easy peasy.

[FlyingRon]

I think he meant the pain of having to switch planes in Detroit, Chicago, or Denver. to get to Appleton. Appleton isn't the hub of anything. I agree once you get to ATW, it's a nice transfer to OSH. One time I took the bus down and the other time I chatted up with the guy next to me and offered to show him how to get to the EAA if he gave me a ride.

[Airmutt]

Hey Ron… ya forgot about Minneapolis. Delta does have nonstop service from ATL to ATW but it can a little pricey. Mostly like due the fact that Kimberly Clark moved a big chunk it’s headquarters to north Atlanta. Midwest Express had similar flights but when they got absorbed by Frontier those flights stopped. Too bad I really liked Midwest Express.

[azmedic85355]

Too bad I really liked Midwest Express.

It truly was the best care in the air


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[L-188]

The CV-19 pandemic was, in a certain sense, a massive earthquake, and we are still being impacted by the aftershocks. Or perhaps another analogy — we are flying along in a Cessna 172 enjoying the views, and unknowingly fly directly into the wake vortex of a fully loaded 747. Unfortunately, there is a possibility of more CV-19 variants that introduce more waves across the globe and US. Think back a mere 4 years, and consider what you would have thought if someone told you that AirVenture 2020 was going to be completely cancelled. Unbelievable, and yet it did happen. And at the time of cancellation, there were discussions on this forum that questioned if EAA would be able to survive the cancellation of AV2020, due to lack of revenue stream.
As aviators, we all know the importance of having “alternate plans”, in the case of an unexpected event. We don’t plan on something going wrong, but we prepare for it, should something adverse occur. Suppose another variant occurs, and Wisconsin decides to lockdown large events (yes - a political decision), while other states remain open for business (also, a political decision). Is this the equivalent of flying to a destination airport, finding that it is closed due to a runway mishap, and then need to divert to an alternate? Could EAA survive another cancelled AV? Should EAA have alternate plans in place for resiliency in the face of potentially adverse conditions?
One of the messages on this thread has challenged us to consider fundamental suggestions/ideas and therefore "think big", about AV. And, a very interesting analysis has been offered, that helps to understand the geographic distribution of experimental aviators. Responses have been broad and diverse. Some themes seem to be emerging, such as “people logistics” (how to move people and traffic in an efficient and comfortable manner), considerations for the air show and related issues, and even comments about sustainability of AV (ie, has it reached a critical mass), and if AV is even a “fly-in” anymore. All very interesting and valid thoughts. It is these later comments on sustainability of AV that potentially present the greatest opportunity for “big ideas" about AV. We are all passionate about aviation, and AirVenture, and this is precisely the reason that big ideas can be helpful.
AirVenture is a massive event and undertaking, that occurs in the form a “pulse”. In other words, everything is quiet and serene for most of the year at Wittman field, and then all of the sudden, there is this massive event for a short period of time (peaking for about one week), and then it reverts back to the quiet and serene conditions. Perhaps what we have is a "massive pulse event” that occurs within what might be considered as a “fragile political environment”. In this case, a fragile political environment can be inferred from the somewhat chaotic events that have been occurring in Wisconsin, themselves potentially tied to the pandemic, and the reason for the original post of this thread.
Within this context, the opportunity still remains for “big ideas” and fundamental improvements for AV. One idea would be for EAA to complete a “sustainability and resiliency” study for AV. What changes can be made to enhance sustainability and resiliency? Renewable/solar energy? FEWER and electric only golf carts? Major focus on alternate lower lead aviation fuels so aviators can learn more about what is happening in this area of development. Another idea would be to ‘flatten the curve” - where have we heard that concept before? What if AirVenture were to become a “rolling fly-in”? An “extended fly-in” that lasts for a month, instead of a week? And then, during the rolling fly-in, different themes are emphasized, so that people could identify the theme(s) that they prefer and schedule their time accordingly. Would this be more resilient to upsets? The huge crowd, and thus people logistics would be ameliorated. Perhaps this type of event would be more like a “fly-in”. Another idea is that perhaps EAA should consider a “back-up location” and event plan, such that a “scaled down” AV could be held in a different state, should Wisconsin decide to lockdown large events, while other states remain open. Just some thoughts. (P.S. - yes - Cali would get the political bent going, and for some reason I can't get rid of the numbers - sorry for that.)


Man, that's a long winded explanation to say move it to a RED state. All you need to do is have the governors of AZ, SD, TX and FL present bids to the EAA board on an official letterhead. I was pleasantly surprised to find a lack of political discourse at Oshkosh 2021 although I'm sure it was bubbling under the surface. I've attended since the 70's off and on, and it's been reasonably apolitical. But if it is moved to a safer venue, then it wouldn't be such a rickety, haphazard, mess with all the planning of a high school musical. So perhaps you're on to something WS, I'm not going to mention names, but what better place than perhaps adjacent to Palm Beach in FL.

[Eric Page]

...what better place than perhaps adjacent to Palm Beach in FL.
Well, that'd be real handy for me and Ron W.

[Kyle Boatright]

Well, that'd be real handy for me and Ron W.

Nobody wants to see either of you in your Speedo's anyway. ;-)

[Airmutt]

Thanks Kyle….. for putting that image in my head. I think I need another pina colada;)

[rwanttaja]

Nobody wants to see either of you in your Speedo's anyway. ;-)

Speedos? Man, if it's THAT warm, the boys are out catching the air unencumbered, if you know what I mean....

Ron Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

They often call him Speedo, but his real name is Mr. Wanttaja.

[FrankLudington]

Excellently obscure! Is that where the "My Name is ..." TV show got it's name?