Why doesn’t EAA allow Fifi and other Warbirds to Charge for rides?

[Mark17]

Hey Sam- I just watched a video explaining why Fifi didn’t come to Oshkosh this year. It essentially said that since EAA doesn’t allow Fifi to charge for rides and experience flights, they can’t cover their costs or make money for their operation. So they don’t come. Why is this a policy for EAA? I come to Oshkosh for the Warbirds as I’m sure many do. If EAA is going to make it so they don’t show up what exactly is the end game in that? Thanks!

[Kyle Boatright]

You realize that (other than the tri-motor), EAA doesn't use its aircraft to give rides at Oshkosh. They give rides on the B-17 and B-25 from Appleton, IIRC.

Cycling a warbird (worse - a big one like the -29) through the field every hour or so would have a huge adverse impact on all of the other inbound and outbound traffic. In addition, there's the ramp space issue. Where is EAA gonna find the ramp space to properly manage a ride program on a B-whatever without sacrificing a chunk of Aeroshell Square or the entire ramp at Basler (which EAA doesn't control anyway).

I just don't think it is practical without a substantial negative impact on all of the other things going on at Oshkosh.

[PaulDow]

...without sacrificing a chunk of Aeroshell Square...

The Boeing people won't like it called that. AeroShell was two sponsors ago. They aren't even an exhibiter there this year, although happily they are still the primary sponsor of the aerobatic team.

[Mark17]

You hit it on the head Kyle with the rides being staged from Appleton. In years past, that’s exactly where the B-29’s have staged from. But from the video I watched, apparently EAA is not allowing Fifi to do that either. Obviously they’re not going to stage rides from Oshkosh itself. Clearly that’s not logistically possible. But not letting the CAF or Other warbird organizations charge for rides in general is going to stop them from coming to Oshkosh all together. They have to be able to have a source of income to cover their expenses.

[Mark17]

I’m just looking for some clarification from EAA on what the actual policy is so we can know what the facts are. If it’s true that they’re not allowing the Warbird Organizations to charge for rides in general if the Warbird is going to be on the ground in Oshkosh at any point during the show or affiliated with the show in any way- then I don’t see how any of the big warbirds will continue coming to the show. I’d like to know what the actual facts are behind all of this.

[Hal Bryan]

Hi Mark - Apologies for the delay in getting back to you, but I'm sure you understand given the time of year. Without having seen the video, we can't comment on exactly what was said, but here's the message I got back from the powers-that-be:

The CAF is welcome to provide flight experiences with FIFI out of Appleton just as other groups do, such as Doc’s Friends with their B-29 and Yankee Lady this year with the B-17. Those operations are held in Appleton because of the air traffic in Oshkosh throughout the day, and the tower’s ability there to slot them in between the commercial traffic. It would be much more difficult to do that in Oshkosh during the fly-in. There is nothing stopping any group from providing those flights up there.

So, whoever told you that we "don't allow" the CAF to charge for rides was wholly mistaken.

[Mark17]

Thanks for the clarification on it Hal. I appreciate it. We have to be doing everything possible to ensure that Fifi and Doc are back flying together at Oshkosh next year. With each passing day, the first hand history and accounts of WWII are being lost. It’s absolutely imperative that the younger generations understand the lessons from WWII and what exactly happened and why. It’s one thing to read about WWII in history books. And it’s decisively another to tell the story of the WWII experience through Fifi and Doc. Airventure is Masters Class in WWII History. But that class is woefully incomplete without Fifi and Doc flying together. So Let’s do all we can to honor our WWII Veterans by telling their stories in the most impactful and powerful way possible. It’s just too important.

[ssteve1]

It's always about the money.

eaa.

[Mark17]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y11JzXJdP4E Here’s the video Hal. Clearly we have to do everything we can to resolve this. Obviously Oshkosh is where Fifi, Doc, Diamond Lil, Witchcraft (when she becomes available again) and every other WWII Warbird on the planet needs to be. Whatever the issues are between the organizations, we have to work them out for the benefit of everyone. As I said before, it’s just too important.

[Airmutt]

Just viewed the video…… Explain to me why the CAF or any other warbird flying museum should be entitled to part of the gate take for just showing up??

[Kyle Boatright]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y11JzXJdP4E Here’s the video Hal. Clearly we have to do everything we can to resolve this. Obviously Oshkosh is where Fifi, Doc, Diamond Lil, Witchcraft (when she becomes available again) and every other WWII Warbird on the planet needs to be. Whatever the issues are between the organizations, we have to work them out for the benefit of everyone. As I said before, it’s just too important.

EAA's responsibility is to the rank and file at EAA. Not to help the CAF make money or to help the CAF with its B-29 ride program. If the CAF wants to put on a WWII history demonstration, they can fly Fifi over the grounds almost any time other than during the daily airshow. Alternately, the CAF can park the airplane on Boeing Square all week and charge for tours. They have lots of options if giving a history lesson is the objective.

If making money for the CAF is the objective, well, cycling Fifi every hour or so doesn't really fit with the fly-in. Think about the 5 or 10 minutes of lost runway time every time it takes off or lands and the impact that would have on 10,000+ arrivals and departures. Beyond that, and as I stated previously, there is nowhere on the grounds (other than tossing someone else off the grounds) where you could sequester Fifi to give rides. A B-29 ride program just isn't a fit at Airventure, regardless of how or why some Youtuber pitches the idea.

[Mark17]

I’m not suggesting that they should necessarily. But some kind of reasonable arrangement needs to be worked out so we don’t go years without the B-29’s at Oshkosh. It’s all about working together so all parties involved can benefit. Oshkosh is the biggest and best Airshow on the planet. It literally draws 600,000+ people every year. The B-29’s represent the Crown Jewels of all the Warbirds. Their impact and reach is greater then anything else when it comes to educating our kids about WWII.

In 2017 when Fifi and Doc were at the show, my nephews got the chance to see them both up close and personal. They heard their engines and they saw them fly. They heard Danny on the PA System telling the History of WWII and the B-29. The impact that experience had on them was not something a classroom could ever offer. In fact when the oldest went back to school that fall, he had to correct his teacher when she was telling the class that a B-52 Dropped the Atomic Bombs on Japan. He told her it was the B-29 and not a B-52 that had dropped the bombs and she said to him- “How would you have any idea”. His response- “I’ve been to Oshkosh and sat in the B-29 myself and heard directly from an actual B-29 Pilot who knew Paul Tibbets himself”. So the impact of having the B-29’s at Oshkosh can’t be understated. They are beyond important as story tellers, history protectors and educators. We need to value them as such. In today’s day and age with all the disinformation, lies, Holocaust deniers and the like, now more then ever we must be doing everything we can to protect our history so we don’t repeat the mistakes of the past. That mission starts with the B-29’s.

[Mark17]

EAA's responsibility is to the rank and file at EAA. Not to help the CAF make money or to help the CAF with its B-29 ride program. If the CAF wants to put on a WWII history demonstration, they can fly Fifi over the grounds almost any time other than during the daily airshow. Alternately, the CAF can park the airplane on Boeing Square all week and charge for tours. They have lots of options if giving a history lesson is the objective.

If making money for the CAF is the objective, well, cycling Fifi every hour or so doesn't really fit with the fly-in. Think about the 5 or 10 minutes of lost runway time every time it takes off or lands and the impact that would have on 10,000+ arrivals and departures. Beyond that, and as I stated previously, there is nowhere on the grounds (other than tossing someone else off the grounds) where you could sequester Fifi to give rides. A B-29 ride program just isn't a fit at Airventure, regardless of how or why some Youtuber pitches the idea.

Again Kyle- as I’ve already stated- Appleton is the location that rides are staged from. Not Oshkosh. No one is contending that the CAF or anyone else should be giving rides from Wittman Field. That clearly does not work logistically. As I’ve already stated.

[Kyle Boatright]

Again Kyle- as I’ve already stated- Appleton is the location that rides are staged from. Not Oshkosh. No one is contending that the CAF or anyone else should be giving rides from Wittman Field. That clearly does not work logistically. As I’ve already stated.

You've stated multiple times in the thread (Post 1 and Post 12, for example) that your objective is to have the B-29 at Oshkosh. I'm sure EAA would welcome the B-29 on Boeing Square (static or maybe flying during the warbird show). You've also stated that you want the B-29 to be able to give rides from Appleton. Hal Bryan explicitly stated in Post 6 in the thread that the B-29 would be welcome to do that.

So both of your stated wants can be satisfied. But you're not satisfied.

Why?

[Mark17]

My objective is to have both B-29’s at Oshkosh. We have a fiduciary responsibility to our kids to educate them on our history. Airventure brings history alive for our kids so they’re actually interested in it and want to learn all they can about WWII. The B-29’s are the tool to facilitate that learning. This isn’t Rocket Science. This is about doing the right thing. It’s about coming to a reasonable solution to ensure the mightiest of all the Warbirds are represented at the greatest air show on earth every year. Most importantly however it’s about honoring our WWII Veterans by not letting their courage and sacrifice be forgotten by the younger generations.

Do you have any idea as to the operating costs of the B-29’s? I’ll give you a clue- it’s a ton. They burn 500 Gallons of Fuel every hour alone. Just getting them to Oshkosh is a major financial hurdle. Not to mention everything else that goes in to maintaining, storing, insuring and the like. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that it’s going to take more then Boeing Square Tours to make it Financially Prudent for them to come. It isn’t about making money. It’s about covering basic costs. I’m not a CAF member or affiliated with them in any way. But I understand basic business practices and I can tell you for sure they’re not coming if they’re under water right out of the gate.

[rwanttaja]

My objective is to have both B-29’s at Oshkosh. We have a fiduciary responsibility to our kids to educate them on our history.
EAA has a *fiduciary* responsibility to host the CAF's fund-raising activities? Explain that one to me. "In the U.S. legal system, a fiduciary duty describes a relationship between two parties that obligates one to act solely in the interest of the other." *Solely* in the interest of another.

And if there is, somehow, a fiduciary responsibility to educate kids on history...how does that translate to hosting one specific aircraft?

I just don't understand how EAA supposedly prevents the CAF from operating from an entirely different airport, not under their control.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mark17]

EAA has a *fiduciary* responsibility to host the CAF's fund-raising activities? Explain that one to me. "In the U.S. legal system, a fiduciary duty describes a relationship between two parties that obligates one to act solely in the interest of the other." *Solely* in the interest of another.

And if there is, somehow, a fiduciary responsibility to educate kids on history...how does that translate to hosting one specific aircraft?

I just don't understand how EAA supposedly prevents the CAF from operating from an entirely different airport, not under their control.

Ron Wanttaja

Did I say that the EAA has a Fiduciary Responsibility to the CAF? I’m pretty sure I don’t remember saying that. I don’t remember saying that because I never said it. I said we have a Fiduciary Responsibility to our Kids to educate them about WWII so we don’t repeat the Mistakes of our Past. If you’re going to quote what I say, you should probably make an effort to be accurate. You know, because FACTS MATTER.

The B-29’s are the best tool we have in our Arsenal in educating our Kids about WWII. They represent some of America’s Bravest and most skilled Pilots and Aircrews of the War. They Represent what we can do as a nation if we stand up and work together for a common goal. No matter what the odds, by working together we can accomplish anything we put our minds to. Most importantly however is that They represent what man is capable of doing to other human beings. It’s absolutely vital that we don’t repeat the mistakes of our past and the only way we do that is by getting our kids interested enough in WWII history that they actually want to learn about it. The B-29’s are the best story tellers we have in terms of WWII History. They command attention unlike any other WWII Warbird in existence. That’s what it takes to get kids interested and keep them engaged. And that’s precisely why their attendance at Oshkosh matters. They honor our Veterans. They honor those who are buried in every Veteran Cemetery around the world and they tell the story of WWII better than anyone else.

We have kids around our Country doing Heil Hitler Salutes. We have kids expressing interest and support for Nazism. Hate crimes are going up across the board. If we can get through to our kids the importance and lessons learned from our experiences in WWII, we can put an end to this. There are almost 10,000 American Service Personnel Buried at the Normandy American Cemetery in Colleville-sur-Mer, France. I can guarantee you that they would be absolutely ashamed and astounded knowing that there are kids in America today doing Heil Hitler Salutes. So let’s work together in honoring their legacy by ensuring we are using every tool in our Arsenal to educate our kids.

So I ask you Ron- What’s more important- Getting the EAA, the CAF and Friend’s of Doc to work together to find a reasonable solution to make sure the B-29’s are represented at Oshkosh every year to help in the Mission of educating our kids- Or just sitting around bickering about who should be responsible for footing the bill? I would respectfully submit to you it’s the education mission that matters most.

[thellmer]

...Getting the EAA, the CAF and Friend’s of Doc to work together to find a reasonable solution to make sure the B-29’s are represented at Oshkosh every year...

There's nothing for those organizations to work together to resolve. EAA is not preventing either organization from bringing their B-29 to Oshkosh. It is the decision solely of the operator to put them at ATW to give rides throughout the week or put them on the ground at OSH for display and/or in the airshow. If they decide to even come at all. That's their choice.

There is no issue here. The statements made in the YouTube video are baseless and have been refuted here by Hal's statement. If you want CAF or FoD to put a B-29 at OSH next year, you'd want to kindly contact them and provide your feedback.

[rwanttaja]

Did I say that the EAA has a Fiduciary Responsibility to the CAF? I’m pretty sure I don’t remember saying that. I don’t remember saying that because I never said it. I said we have a Fiduciary Responsibility to our Kids to educate them about WWII so we don’t repeat the Mistakes of our Past. If you’re going to quote what I say, you should probably make an effort to be accurate. You know, because FACTS MATTER.

Indeed. So let's review what *I* said: "EAA has a *fiduciary* responsibility to host the CAF's fund-raising activities?" I didn't say the EAA owes a responsibility to the CAF... just that you are claiming that they MUST host the CAF B-29 to meet some notional fiduciary responsibility.

Let's review, again, what fiduciary responsibility means: "In the U.S. legal system, a fiduciary duty describes a relationship between two parties that obligates one to act solely in the interest of the other."

Again, *solely* in the interest of another. In other words, the financial status of the EAA shouldn't matter. The smooth running of AirVenture shouldn't matter. The interruption of air traffic to shoehorn shouldn't matter.

What you're basically saying that every mom and pop aviation museum in the US is failing its fiduciary duty by NOT having a B-29 on display.

Hmmmm.



The B-29’s are the best tool we have in our Arsenal in educating our Kids about WWII.

Mmmmm, certainly open for argument there. 8th Bomber Command/8th Air Force suffered half of the entire casualties in the Army Air Forces during WWII. Can't find similar statistics for 20th Air Force, but the 8th had been in operation for 18 months before it was even formed. The B-29's a significant airplane, but the thing it's known most for is carrying the bombs that hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki. *I* personally don't have a problem with that, but many people do. This makes the B-29 problematic as a symbol. The conversation thus slides from the heroism of the crews to the politics of nuclear war.


So I ask you Ron- What’s more important- Getting the EAA, the CAF and Friend’s of Doc to work together to find a reasonable solution to make sure the B-29’s are represented at Oshkosh every year to help in the Mission of educating our kids- Or just sitting around bickering about who should be responsible for footing the bill? I would respectfully submit to you it’s the education mission that matters most.

Sure, it's easy arguing about how to spend someone ELSE'S money.

How many Young Eagles flights can be flown for one hour of B-29 operations? Which will entice more kids to consider aviation, watching old folks fly in a B-29 or getting their own ride in a 172?


You hit it on the head Kyle with the rides being staged from Appleton. In years past, that’s exactly where the B-29’s have staged from. But from the video I watched, apparently EAA is not allowing Fifi to do that either.

Did you miss Hal's post? It's basically saying the video you referenced was wrong.


The CAF is welcome to provide flight experiences with FIFI out of Appleton just as other groups do, such as Doc’s Friends with their B-29 and Yankee Lady this year with the B-17. Those operations are held in Appleton because of the air traffic in Oshkosh throughout the day, and the tower’s ability there to slot them in between the commercial traffic. It would be much more difficult to do that in Oshkosh during the fly-in. There is nothing stopping any group from providing those flights up there.

So, whoever told you that we "don't allow" the CAF to charge for rides was wholly mistaken.

Now...why does the video make the statement that it does? What's the basis for the claim?

Ron Wanttaja

[Mark17]

1) I don’t need a history lesson on the 8th Air Force in Europe. My Grandpa flew with the 8th and I’m well aware of their amazing achievements.

2) This is all about putting our kids first by getting through to them in a way that they can appreciate and understand. Park a B-29 and a B-17 on the ramp at Oshkosh and see which aircraft garners more of their attention.

3) Obviously if the largest Airshow in the world is going on and the *TWO* Remaining Airworthy B-29’s in the World are not in attendance, that’s a problem. Oshkosh is incomplete without them.

4) As I stated in my previous post in regard to the B-29 and it’s role in history: “Most importantly however is that They represent what man is capable of doing to other human beings. It’s absolutely vital that we don’t repeat the mistakes of our past and the only way we do that is by getting our kids interested enough in WWII history that they actually want to learn about it”.

This isn’t about the young eagles program which is absolutely awesome and probably the best program EAA offers. This is about educating our kids on the lessons of WWII so we never repeat the atrocities that were committed. The B-29 gets that mission done because it captures their attention unlike any other WWII Aircraft. Anyone who was at Oshkosh in 2017 can attest to just how awe inspiring having Fifi and Doc there together was. It was a once in lifetime moment that we have the power to repeat every year if we choose to do so. It’s up to us to let the organizations know what’s important to us and what we would like to see at Oshkosh. For me, I want Fifi and Doc back for all the reasons outlined above.

[Auburntsts]

So have you contacted CAF and FOD and lobbied to have them display their respective aircraft at Osh? Seems to me that’s where you need to focus your efforts, and not at EAA.

[BJC]

1)Anyone who was at Oshkosh in 2017 can attest to just how awe inspiring having Fifi and Doc there together was. What rule, policy or procedure did the EAA change from 2017 to 2021 that kept either airplane from AirVenture 2021?


BJC

[Mark17]

The position and explanation provided by the EAA and the CAF on this issue are conflicting. That’s why I was asking for clarification on it. I’ve reached out to both organizations now and the response back conflicts. So I guess the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. But that still doesn’t bring Fifi back to Oshkosh to fly with Doc and that’s what’s truly important here. Educating our kids on the lessons of WWII is the most important thing we can do to honor our WWII Veterans and keep their legacy alive for future generations to learn from. The B-29’s are the perfect tool to accomplish that mission.

[Mark17]

What rule, policy or procedure did the EAA change from 2017 to 2021 that kept either airplane from AirVenture 2021?


BJC

I have no idea- that’s why I asked this question in the first place.

[Auburntsts]

Well I wish you luck. I personally don’t share your concerns as I believe the history lessons you want to impart can be and are accomplished by the dozens of other warbirds, both past and contemporary, that are at the show every year. Sure the B-29s are impressive, but they aren’t the end all, be all.

[Mark17]

I agree with you. Oshkosh brings in an amazing and unreal cross section of fantastic WWII Warbirds and from my perspective, it’s excellent every year. But that’s my perspective and not the perspective of high school aged kids who we need to do everything we can to get them interested in WWII History. The Mustangs, Lightnings, Corsairs, B-17’s and B-25’s definitely capture their attention but the B-29 takes that to whole nother level. We just want to drive the lessons home that we learned from our experiences in WWII to them so we never repeat the atrocities of the past. And it’s vital we use every tool in our Arsenal to do that.

[thellmer]

The position and explanation provided by the EAA and the CAF on this issue are conflicting.

Mark, please stop using that reference. The video on YouTube you keep referencing was made by a person completely unaffiliated with EAA or CAF by means of any type of employed position. The entire video was based up on his reported discussion with a "CAF volunteer" and then later referenced in the comments section as a "mechanic". Which, again, without any cited, actual CAF sources supporting the claim made in the video it is purely conjecture and ultimately really libel against EAA. EAA has already made statement in this thread on the matter. If you get an actual response from a CAF organization employee (i.e. NOT a volunteer) then certainly feel free to post that here along with their name, position, and date of correspondence so we can see the result.

But please discontinue referencing the YouTube video as CAF's opinion without further confirmation.

[krw920]

One other thing, Doc was scheduled to be in Oshkosh this year, but due to mechanical issues (bad engine), was not able to make it. Anybody know why FIFI wasn't schedule to be there? They have been in the past, and have always conducted their rides out of Appleton.

[tnathan]

Mark, please stop using that reference. The video on YouTube you keep referencing was made by a person completely unaffiliated with EAA or CAF by means of any type of employed position. The entire video was based up on his reported discussion with a "CAF volunteer" and then later referenced in the comments section as a "mechanic". Which, again, without any cited, actual CAF sources supporting the claim made in the video it is purely conjecture and ultimately really libel against EAA. EAA has already made statement in this thread on the matter. If you get an actual response from a CAF organization employee (i.e. NOT a volunteer) then certainly feel free to post that here along with their name, position, and date of correspondence so we can see the result.

But please discontinue referencing the YouTube video as CAF's opinion without further confirmation.

Not sure about all this. I saw the video too and assume there is some truth to it. But, They were there in past years. Did the rules change? Sometimes on the field with doc and sometimes I thought they were flying out of fond Du lac or Green Bay if I recall. I assumed it was just easier to work flights out of there rather than dodging arrivals and air shows at Kosh. I assumed it was the best of both worlds. They pull customers from the 600k visitors interested in aviation to take a bucket list ride. The riders get to fly over the biggest air show in the world and FiFi can stage out of a satellite field that is easier and maybe cheaper than kosh. Why didn’t that work this year? EAA can’t control what the caf does at a satellite field.


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[CHICAGORANDY]

"One other thing, Doc was scheduled to be in Oshkosh this year, but due to mechanical issues (bad engine)"

Please.... let's not start injecting facts into a good conspiracy theory - LOL

[tnathan]

"One other thing, Doc was scheduled to be in Oshkosh this year, but due to mechanical issues (bad engine)"

Please.... let's not start injecting facts into a good conspiracy theory - LOL

Thanks don’t really care that much but I remember in past years the warbirds seemed to be running more often outside of the air shows. I thought groups like the Collins foundation were selling rides. Just didn’t see the warbirds move much this year outside of the air shows. So there could be some t Ruth to this rumor.


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[BJC]

I have no idea- that’s why I asked this question in the first place.Answered here by the EAA Why doesn’t EAA allow Fifi and other Warbirds to Charge for rides? (eaaforums.org) (http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?10056-Why-doesn%92t-EAA-allow-Fifi-and-other-Warbirds-to-Charge-for-rides&p=85410&viewfull=1#post85410)

Please post the CAF response.


BJC

[MEdwards]

I’ve reached out to both organizations now and the response back conflicts.So what were the conflicting responses? Exactly who did they come from? I suspect the EAA response was reply #6 in this thread from an EAA official, and the CAF response was from a ramp mechanic via a conspiracy theorist on YouTube. Am I right? If I’m wrong, great, post the responses. If you have more from either organization, contribute some FACTS.

By the way, your comment about facts mattering was an insult to (IMO) the most fact-based contributor to this forum.

[SteveCostello]

It’s about covering basic costs. I’m not a CAF member or affiliated with them in any way. But I understand basic business practices and I can tell you for sure they’re not coming if they’re under water right out of the gate.

Wait wait wait... you've been railing on how incredibly important... even CRITICAL... that the B-29s are to preserving history, educating the kids, and all paragraphs of other jazz that you've written, and you understand the financials that could prohibit FIFI from coming to Oshkosh... and yet with all of that you aren't a member of CAF? That's just.... what?

[krw920]

Wait wait wait... you've been railing on how incredibly important... even CRITICAL... that the B-29s are to preserving history, educating the kids, and all paragraphs of other jazz that you've written, and you understand the financials that could prohibit FIFI from coming to Oshkosh... and yet with all of that you aren't a member of CAF? That's just.... what?

Since when is FIFI not allowed to charge for rides? They always have in the past! Yankee Lady B-17 was charging for rides last week during EAA through their website, and bomber rides where conducted out of Appleton as they always have been. (at least for the last 10 years that I have been paying attention to them).

[tnathan]

Ya I agree. I said fond du lac but I guess it is Appleton I was thinking of. Don’t know how EAA can stop them. I like seeing fifi do fly overs.

I don’t want to add bad info, but I do recall in past years I would see the p51s running more often. Often I would see a passenger In the back. I had assumed the passenger was a fare paying customer but maybe they were photo flights. I assumed it was a win-win. EAA has more planes and pays nothings. The airplane. Owner makes some money to keep the plane flying. And I get to buy a $10 burger and watch a p51 do it’s thing. If I had to choose between letting the warbirds make money or keep the airspace open for the random 150 to land at noon on Wednesday. I would prefer seeing the warbirds flying. At the end of the day folks with a lot more money and say are better positioned to negotiate this with EAA. And at the end of the day, can’t believe EAA really wants to discourage unique planes from showing up and flying


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[rwanttaja]

I don’t want to add bad info, but I do recall in past years I would see the p51s running more often. Often I would see a passenger In the back. I had assumed the passenger was a fare paying customer but maybe they were photo flights. I assumed it was a win-win. EAA has more planes and pays nothings. The airplane. Owner makes some money to keep the plane flying. And I get to buy a $10 burger and watch a p51 do it’s thing. If I had to choose between letting the warbirds make money or keep the airspace open for the random 150 to land at noon on Wednesday. I would prefer seeing the warbirds flying. At the end of the day folks with a lot more money and say are better positioned to negotiate this with EAA. And at the end of the day, can’t believe EAA really wants to discourage unique planes from showing up and flying


Speaking of bad info :-) I've heard some rumors over the years. In the good 'ol days, airshow organizers would fill up the tanks for any warbird, as long as it was at the show. What I've heard is, due to the rise in gas prices and other hassles, many shows now only provide the fuel to fly in any displays at the show itself. In response, it seems many warbird owners are less willing to spend their own coin to fly to the events.

Ron Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

I remember someone asking Scotty Crossfield whether he thought the new adminsitration (I think it was George W. Bush at the time) would increase the funding for those flying old military aircraft.

He his answer was quite acerbic. "I'm tired fo fighting WWII. We could go to the moon again with the money wasted on this. Put one of each type in a museum and recycle the rest into canoes."

[glider90]

I recall it being made pretty clear in 2017 that FiFi and Doc on the same field would likely be a one time thing. Boeing and EAA wanted it to happen, (the two of them together for the first time) at Oshkosh.

Both Doc and Fifi need to make money on rides and ground tours to sustain their operation. Once an event has one B-29, a second one dilutes the customer base. Since Doc was on the schedule for EAA this year, FiFi scheduled an event elsewhere. Plain and simple Doc was going to be there this year but had an engine issue which brought her tour to a halt. FiFi was already booked elsewhere.

Also, the B-29's usually split the week with some days being ride experiences out of Appleton and some days being ground tours at Wittman. One of the past crewman told me that the ground tours at Oshkosh are hard to beat with "a constant flow of paying patrons going through the airplane without us having to fly it".

There was a very long time where there was not a single airworthy B-29 to attend Oshkosh at all during FiFi's engine rework era. I would like to see a B-17 on the field again, it has been a long time since a B-17 was based on the grounds.

I do not understand why so many people want to paint a pitch fork into the hands of the EAA over everything that has changed over the years with Airventure. I have been attending since 1973, it has changed a bunch. The EAA convention is a product in demand. The EAA has utilized that demand to do things for the membership that would have never been possible had they turned their backs on the companies that wanted to invest in the product. As long as there are some airplanes and people that love them, to me it is Oshkosh. The big players change over the years, but the homebuilts, vintage, and private warbirds are the core, and the real people that are involved in bringing them to Oshkosh are the essence of the event to me.

[MEdwards]

:thumbsup: Thanks for that. The most straightforward explanation is most often the right one, without conjuring up conspiracies.

[krw920]

I recall it being made pretty clear in 2017 that FiFi and Doc on the same field would likely be a one time thing. Boeing and EAA wanted it to happen, (the two of them together for the first time) at Oshkosh.

Both Doc and Fifi need to make money on rides and ground tours to sustain their operation. Once an event has one B-29, a second one dilutes the customer base. Since Doc was on the schedule for EAA this year, FiFi scheduled an event elsewhere. Plain and simple Doc was going to be there this year but had an engine issue which brought her tour to a halt. FiFi was already booked elsewhere.

Also, the B-29's usually split the week with some days being ride experiences out of Appleton and some days being ground tours at Wittman. One of the past crewman told me that the ground tours at Oshkosh are hard to beat with "a constant flow of paying patrons going through the airplane without us having to fly it".

There was a very long time where there was not a single airworthy B-29 to attend Oshkosh at all during FiFi's engine rework era. I would like to see a B-17 on the field again, it has been a long time since a B-17 was based on the grounds.

I do not understand why so many people want to paint a pitch fork into the hands of the EAA over everything that has changed over the years with Airventure. I have been attending since 1973, it has changed a bunch. The EAA convention is a product in demand. The EAA has utilized that demand to do things for the membership that would have never been possible had they turned their backs on the companies that wanted to invest in the product. As long as there are some airplanes and people that love them, to me it is Oshkosh. The big players change over the years, but the homebuilts, vintage, and private warbirds are the core, and the real people that are involved in bringing them to Oshkosh are the essence of the event to me.

Finally, a voice of reason and truth!

[rwanttaja]

I do not understand why so many people want to paint a pitch fork into the hands of the EAA over everything that has changed over the years with Airventure. I have been attending since 1973, it has changed a bunch. The EAA convention is a product in demand. The EAA has utilized that demand to do things for the membership that would have never been possible had they turned their backs on the companies that wanted to invest in the product. As long as there are some airplanes and people that love them, to me it is Oshkosh. The big players change over the years, but the homebuilts, vintage, and private warbirds are the core, and the real people that are involved in bringing them to Oshkosh are the essence of the event to me.

Good post, Glider.

We have to remember that these are just ordinary, airplane-loving folks working out of EAA headquarters (though, mind you, I've noted a waft of brimstone coming out of Hal's office :-). There's a lot of things they'd like to do, but they're restricted in myriad ways, from the binding of state and federal laws, the need to remain a "good neighbor" to the Oshkosh non-aviation community, and the whole logistics nightmare of putting on the world's largest airshow, running for a whole week at a time.

Yes, there are some &^%*% lawyers involved...unavoidable, with a corporation this large. However, stop by EAA's headquarters sometimes... sure, it's big, but there aren't THAT many people working there. Most of the building is the museum.

We can bemoan the smaller, intimate events of the 60s and 70s, but I think most of the complainers today would be disappointed if they were plopped down in the middle of the event in, say, 1962. "What, only a hundred homebuilts?" "The warbird show was just six T-6s." "No trams?" "I got a splinter from that wooden sani-can." "No showers?" "Only two food vendors, carrying only brats?" "Why does the whole place just shut down at 6 PM?" "Where are the seaplanes?" "Why is that eight-year-old kid yelling about headset impedances?"

The founders of EAA grabbed a tiger by the tail when they started holding an annual convention. The tiger has dragged them over some odd terrain over the years. We may not agree at some of the decisions made, but it did result in a pretty darn good aviation event.

Ron Wanttaja