Well...one has to remember that the EAA staffers who occasionally hang around this place (Glory, Charlie, Tom, Bret, etc.) do not, themselves, define policy. They are not allowed to publicly interpret EAA's position on our policy questions. This has to be done at a higher level, and they have to get permission before passing policy interpretations along..Originally Posted by rv6mike
In short: Don't blame the worker bees.
Ron "But watch out for them damn drones" Wanttaja
Lol, nice try! I'm pretty sure that only applies if they actually pay you, though... Since they don't, they can require whatever from you, since they have no leverage to actually make you do it.
Well, I doubt you'll find "Paid Your Debt to Society" has any legal definition. It's a euphemism, probably invented by a convict to avoid having to say, "I'm out of the hoosegow."
US laws punish those convicted of violating them. That punishment does not end with the end of a prison sentence, or period of parole. Most felons are denied some civil rights; they cannot vote, they cannot hold office, they cannot possess firearms. That never ends, unless some special action is taken to restore their full rights. I think it's reasonable not to put a convicted embezzler in a position where he or she handles money; I think it's reasonable not to put a forger in a position where sensitive documents are present, I think it's reasonable not to allow a perjurer to work as a Notary Public.
And, I think it's reasonable to NOT put persons convicted of abusing children in proximity to children.
Speaking of forgery, the EAA Policy says they email a wallet card to those who complete the training and the background investigation, and this card allows them to fly Young Eagles. The recipient is expected to print it out on his or her home computer. This sounds remarkably easy to forge, and to cover up any discrepancies by using a crappy printer. Good thing felons aren't allowed to own Photoshop.....
Also, note that the card is good for only three years. If you earned yours legitimately, after three years, you have to submit your information AGAIN to whatever company EAA has doing the checks at that time.
Ron Wanttaja
Mark -
Thought I'd jump in quickly and provide some clarification for you on this question. I believe Bret Steffen linked to it before, but "two deep leadership" is not required at all when it comes to aircraft.
There is some additional clarification in the following link:
http://www.eaa.org/~/media/files/eaa...%20rallies.pdf
"Two deep leadership is not required in any of the aircraft typically used for YE flights."
Hopefully that clear up any misunderstanding on the subject, which has been discussed at length for more than a few pages.
Best,
Dennis
Dennis Jenders, EAA #300475
Ron -
Thought I'd jump in on this comment as well. There appears to be a misunderstanding, or misconception, that our membership was not involved before we rolled out the Youth Protection Policy. Actually, we shared it with 10-12 EAA chapters nationally, choosing ones that are among the most active with the Young Eagles and youth programs.
We asked them to review the policy and provide their suggestions. And their ideas were incorporated into the final product.
Shifting gears a bit, I joined EAA a little over a year ago as an employee and I've been attending AirVenture and been a member on / off for 30-some years.
Speaking personally, our staff goes to great lengths to include as many people as possible in the process. As a member first, I am continuously impressed at the level of member participation in our surveys, research, or active engagement when we roll out a new program or change.
While it is impossible to include everyone, we work very hard to get a cross-section of our membership involved and solicit their feedback.
Hope this provides a little more clarity.
Best,
Dennis
Dennis Jenders, EAA #300475
Actually, Dennis, it doesn't. You see, there is the official policy page, then there's this non-letterheaded, non-officially notated PDF with text that is in contrast to the official EAA policy.
To solve confusion and to protect everyone legally, EAA needs to clean up the actual policy language. It's contradicting the generic document and contradicts a conversation I've had with Brett.
Bottom line, EAA needs to clean up the policy and spell out exactly how it effects Young Eagle volunteers and events as well as non-youth oriented EAA, Vintage, Warbird, Ultralight and IAC events.
It has become clear to everyone here that EAA is now taken the big corporation mindset, and as such is taking its sweet time in reviewing the policy to make sure it passes all the legal sniff tests that corporate lawyers throw in it's way.
All EAA needs to do to stem the bleeding at the chapter level is a simple statement to the effect of, "We hear you, we're reviewing the policy, expect an update/clarification/rewrite/whatever on Month Day, 2016." Then provide that information then. Right now, treating the membership like mushrooms isn't helping in the least.
Last edited by smutny; 02-09-2016 at 12:56 PM.
John Smutny
Life is not a journey to the grave intending of arriving safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Damn, what a ride!
If a chapter is used to doing Y E rides, it may be worth it to go through this latest red tape, and continue to do so. I can certainly understand those who feel insulted by this proposal, especially since is seems so unnecessary. I have never even heard of an offender of this type in all the YE rides done, over a million, and after all, it is a short flight, beginning and ending back at the airport where it started and the parents are. It is not an isolated and longer term situation. Often the plane may have more than one kid and even an adult.
Another option is to continue to fly kids, just as before with a name change, perhaps Young Pilots etc. Just don't mention EAA as a sponsor, and of course no EAA ins but most pilots have their own ins.
When I was a scout leader, we did flights for the kids in our group. Rather than try to combat the negative response we probably have gotten from the organization, we just told all the kids and the parents about the flights, that it was apart
from scouts, and got permission from them. All parents ok d the fllights, except for one boy who himself was afraid to go.
I never even thought of some potential problem from abuse and of course it was all in public. We also did a few short hikes that were not so public, but never anything overnight. I was not a very good scout leader, just did my best, never had any such problems. I think we had two adults on the hikes, not sure, but I would make sure if I had it to do over.
John -
That is actually reflected in the policy, which you can see online here:
http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-e...tection-policy
If you scroll to section 4.a.ii we do state "The Two Deep Leadership requirement does not apply in an aircraft during a Young Eagles flight."
Just didn't want any misinformation out there.
Dennis Jenders, EAA #300475
I have done Y E flights in warbirds with only 2 seats as well as 4 seat Bonanza. I would take 2 kids in the Bonanza if there were kids waiting and we needed more seats.
I think 3kids is a bit much to give as good of experience. I did take some parents as the 3rd person, some of them really wanted to go and were so enthusiastic. Once as I was coming to land I hear someone talking in the back seat, not on the intercom and find that a Father is so excited that he is on his cell phone calling someone to tell them about the flight. I felt good about doing the Y E flights. I wonder if any of them became pilots. I did a ride once, not Y E and later the Father said the young man had become an AF pilot. Also did some rides for controllers at FLD/Osh and they seem to enjoy it.
Frankly. I don't love red tape. I concentrated on having a safe flight, especially with kids, and someone else did the paperwork.
Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 02-09-2016 at 01:11 PM.
Alright, I stand corrected on that. Looks like there was a re-write of the policy on 1/28/16.
However, there is still not clarification of how the Youth Protection Policy effects non-Young Eagle, non-youth specific EAA and Division chapter events. It's mentioned in the matrix at the bottom of the YE policy page, but nowhere else in eaa.org that I can find.
I have been told verbally what the expectations are if kids show up at an aerobatic contest, but I have no documentation to hand to a Contest Director to say, "Here is what EAA expects from you." With the implementation of this Youth Protection Policy, that needs to be clarified for those running events for EAA Divisions.
John Smutny
Life is not a journey to the grave intending of arriving safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Damn, what a ride!
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