Stall in a turn

[WLIU]

As with many aspects of aviation, it is important to not assume that how your airplane performs is how all airplanes perform.

The Great Lakes recovers fine from a spin. Does not take two turns. A spin from 4000 AGL is not hazardous in that airplane. And parachutes are specifically NOT required when doing spins with a CFI (see 14 CFR 91.307 and the recent clarification by the FAA Office of Chief Counsel).

Assumptions and one-size-fits-all old wives tales tend to not be constructive.

Thanks,

Wes

[Bill Greenwood]

If for some reason the CFI who has gotten a student into a spin from 4000 feet was not able to fully recover, it would be very comforting just before they hit the ground to know that Wes and 14 CFR 91.307 says "parachutes are specifically NOT required when doing spins with a CFI." It would be especially reassuring that an FAA lawyer also confirmed that the foolish practice of doing spins at low altitudes is full legal. I wonder how much spin recovery experience the lawyer has and how many, if any bailouts he has without a chute.
That silly and overcautious P-51 pilot at Duxford was saved a few years ago by having a chute and using it below 1000 feet after the Skyraider pilot hit him in a formatioin. But then again maybe he didnt have an FAA lawyer to reassure him about flying without using a chute, it would have been perfectly legal.
Just before the Titanic hit the iceberg resulting in the death of about 800 people, they were fully legal and in full compliance with FAA ( British board of trade ?) regulations, is leaving harbor with lifeboats for less than half the passengers. It must have been very comforting for Capt Smith to watch women and children, not to mention men , face certain death in icy water and know they were legal. By the way, I am sure you can recover from a spin in a Great Lakes in less than two turns and 4000 feet , just as I did, So why worry about anything/ Capt Smith, in his previous 25 years of sea duty had never hit an iceberg before so why carry enough lifeboats?
And Wes, I am trying to be polite, but also make a point, It is foolish to advocate doing low altitude spins without chutes, and if I am not constructive in pointing that out so be it.

[WLIU]

I am also being polite. We do spins in Great Lakes and similar aircraft in the contest box below 4000' very regularly. I did 2 just this weekend during competition flights.

Please be very careful projecting your knowledge into areas that you do not have direct experience in. I promise not to spin a P-51 below 10,000'.

Thanks,

Wes

[Bill Greenwood]

Wes, when you do spins in a contest box below 4000 ft do you have a student with you flying the entry to the spin, and that student someone who is new to spins and the plane? And do you wear a parachute in the contest box? And when and where do you do these in the Great Lakes, just curious since I havent seen them much in contest.
P S I dont have direct experience in lots of things, skiing in avalance closed areas , racing motorcycles without a helmet , snake handling as part of church services, etc. But I wouldnt do these things nor would I encourage others to do them, legal or not. There are lots of states where you can ride a motorcycle without a helmet even take your child on the back the same way. And its all legal. Delmar Benjamin was kind enough to take me for a flight in his fabulous Buecker Younmeister ( sp?) but we left the chutes in the car so did not do any acro much less spins down low. Course Delmar was kind of a novice and maybe too cautious. I wouldnt do a low atltude spin with Patty Wagstaff, but thats my uniformed opinon based not just on common sense but also 40 years of losing friends many of them in low altitude acro.

[WLIU]

The IAC Primary competition flight program includes a spin. We have relatively new aerobatic competitors doing them flying with a safety pilot in the other seat. We do not see issues.

We see mostly our Primary competitors mostly flying in Decathlons but there are original Great Lakes with round engines doing contests in Texas I am told. The Decathlon is the modern equivalent to the Great Lakes, although the Great Lakes has more inverted and snap-roll capability.

There are 3 aerobatic contests in Colorado at high altitude airports this season. They just flew the High Plains Hypoxia Fest in Sterling. Earlier they flew the Ben Lowell contest at Ft Morgan. Coming up is the Clyde Cable Rocky Mountain contest at Lamar. You will see Primary level pilots spinning below 4000' AGL (10,000' MSL) at these contests.

Spinning a 1500 or 2000 lb airplane is nothing like spinning an 8,000 or 10,000lb airplane.

Best of luck,

Wes

[DRGT]

... in a Great Lakes Biplane, ... While in the left turn we turned steeply to bring it around and held the nose up a bit.

I have never flown this airplane and I don't know its stall/spin characteristics. Further, I don't know any specifics about your flight - e.g. cg location, total weight, etc. My first question - what do you mean you held the nose up a bit? With the elevator or rudder? I assume you were slipping (intentionally?), just before the right wing stalled. At this point, I would really like to know how you positioned the controls. It is obvious the airplane began to skid and spin. My opinion is a good instructor would provide a thorough debrief which would include a step by step of what happened and why.
I have no opinion on the correct altitude to do spins in a Great Lakes - I don't know the airplane or instructor. I would prefer a little more altitude myself.

DRGT

[vaflier]

Bill, I apreciate your concern for my safety but we all have different levels of acceptable risk. For me this experience was well within my personal tolerance. As for spinning a P-51, well it sounds like a lot of fun but I strongly doubt I will ever have that chance. I will plainly state that this experience has stuck with me all these years and has made me a better pilot as a result. I am safer because of the lesson learned. Thats a win in my book.

[Frank Giger]

I dunno about the Great Plains biplane, but I did my spin training in a 7AC Champ at 3,500 feet AGL and it just wasn't a problem. No, we didn't have chutes, but a Champ is such a docile aircraft that the hard part was getting a spin to stick, and immediately came out of it.

Now, then, I was pilot undergoing supplemental training that already knew the aircraft well, not a primary student. And my instructor knew me and the aircraft as well. That makes a huge difference.

When I learned aileron rolls in a Decathalon, it was a different story. First time in type with a new instructor, and we were at 5,000 AGL and chutes.

And yes, I suck at aerobatics - don't like them. They're valuable, as it teaches precision flying, but it's not fun for me.

[rwanttaja]

I've told this story multiple times...on my very first flight after getting my Private, carrying my very first passenger, I got into an accidental spin. I pulled into a tight left turn, then WHAMO the old Citabria was on its back, whirling into a right-hand spin. My instructor, a month or two earlier, had given me an hour's worth of acro dual, including spin entries and recoveries (no chutes...we'd found that one had opened in the storage locker). However, I attribute my survival not to the training, but to the Citabria's normally spin-adverse nature and the fact that I had about 2,000 feet of air beneath me. How I kept from a secondary stall during the pull-up, I just don't know. I really hauled back, watching the North Dakota prairie rotate below.

What I *wish* could be taught/experienced is how such events take one unaware. I'd been flying that airplane for nearly my entire Private course. It was as familiar as an old chipped bicuspid. But 70 hours in the CAP 7ECA hadn't prepared me for the way it turned in a whirling hell-demon at the drop of a hat. I had no idea it would do that to me. Gradual deceleration then rudder at the break just doesn't show it.....

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

"We do not see issues". I have never met a pilot who first thing in the morning said, "I think I wiil go out and kill myself today, " and by the way take someone else with me. Nor an expert skier who said "lets go find an avalanche to die in today." But it happens, over and over and over, and no one sees any issues.
And I dont need to go to a contest to see someone taking a risk in an airplane. I can see dozens of motorcycle riders here every day without helmets and sometimes they get away with it.
Ive been to crash sites where airplanes spun in from low alt aerobatics. Ive seen the wreckage, and even more so had to report to the families and watch hurt that never goes away. And while heavy planes may hit hard, no plane is immune to crashing and fatally, even a Cub or Champ.
There are risk that people take knowigly. If you downhill ski race at 80 mph you are going to have falls and get hurt almost surely. But that is different than doing something in a way that is more dangerous than necessary to learn.
Believe it or not, I have flown a Citabria and Decathlon and done so at high alt airports in Colorado. Our club owned one.