Looking for opinions.....

[rwanttaja]

I'm off to purchase a pitchfork and suitable materials to construct a torch for the use of the word "Annual" when describing the 12 month Condition Inspection of Experimentals.

Yes, I knew it would (re-)raise some hackles. The problem is, when you're comparing production aircraft to aircraft with Special airworthiness, using a different term for one type of aircraft tends to be confusing. The cognoscenti know, but the less-experienced folks (the ones who NEED the information) can get thrown.

While I'm kind of picky about the English language myself (Dammit, "decimate" does NOT mean that nearly everyone was killed), the term "Annual Inspection" in regards to aircraft really has a universal meaning. I'm careful to say "Condition Inspection" when speaking to an A&P or (gawd help me) the FAA, but when speaking casually about it, almost everybody says "Annual."

We really need an entirely different term, instead of "Annual Condition Inspection." I hereby declare it will henceforth be called the "Giger." Let the reader figure out if it means performing an inspection, painting circles on the wings, or mowing the grass beside the runway.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Dana]

Ok,
so let's use a Rans s-7 for example. They had a kit that was not s-lsa but now it is marketed as s-lsa. In the eyes of the FAA are they two different aircraft? Am I getting this all hosed up? Could I repair one but not another?
Thank you for your patience
Rick

Anybody can repair an experimental-amateur built (which the non SLSA kit would be), but the yearly condition inspection require an A&P or the holder of the repairman certificate for that particular aircraft.With the 120 hour course you can work on or annual the SLSA. If Rans makes an ELSA kit based on the SLSA, anybody can work on it, but the annual can be done by an A&P, a person who's taken the 120 hour course, or the owner, if he takes a different 16 hour course.

[rwanttaja]

Ok,
so let's use a Rans s-7 for example. They had a kit that was not s-lsa but now it is marketed as s-lsa. In the eyes of the FAA are they two different aircraft? Am I getting this all hosed up? Could I repair one but not another?

It's an easy answer: How is the plane certified? The Airworthiness Certificate will state whether it's Experimental Amateur Built (you can repair it yourself) or Special Light Sport (need to get a Light Sport - Maintenance repairman certificate or hire an A&P).

As I've whined here before, the FAA made a SERIOUS mistake in setting up the whole program: The used the term "Light Sport Aircraft" as a definition as well as for two new certification categories. It has caused confusion for more than a decade.

The definition (contained in 14CFR Part 1) defines the aircraft that an individual may fly under the Sport Pilot rules. A better term is "Sport Pilot Eligible." The Special Light Sport and Experimental Light Sport are for airplanes that MEET the definition, but are also certified under the new, simplified rules.

So a homebuilt that meets the Part 1 definition can be flown by a Sport Pilot, but it remains an Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft. The original operating limitations issued to it still apply, and the rules pertaining to Special or Experimental Light Sport Aircraft do not.

A Special Light Sport Aircraft can be transferred to the Experimental Light Sport Aircraft category, but that's it...transfers are not allowed. EABs cannot become ELSAs, ELSAs cannot become EABs, and neither can SLSAs.

Here's a summary of the certification categories:


Ron Wanttaja

[wyoranch]

"It's an easy answer: How is the plane certified? The Airworthiness Certificate will state whether it's Experimental Amateur Built (you can repair it yourself) or Special Light Sport (need to get a Light Sport - Maintenance repairman certificate or hire an A&P)."
Thank you, Thank you and Thank you! I now feel a little smarter (not an easy thing to do). I get the concept as well as when an A&P would be needed. But I am now back to square one on my search for a purchase/build as it does really open up a bunch of possibilities. I still would love to take the 120 hour course, just for the education. Now if I could only find a place that breaks it up into stages. The few that I found are three weeks straight. My company has an unwritten rule. " if you can afford to be gone for more than one week the we can afford to do without you"
Rick

[rwanttaja]

It's an easy answer: How is the plane certified? The Airworthiness Certificate will state whether it's Experimental Amateur Built (you can repair it yourself) or Special Light Sport (need to get a Light Sport - Maintenance repairman certificate or hire an A&P).

Thank you, Thank you and Thank you! I now feel a little smarter (not an easy thing to do). I get the concept as well as when an A&P would be needed. But I am now back to square one on my search for a purchase/build as it does really open up a bunch of possibilities. I still would love to take the 120 hour course, just for the education. Now if I could only find a place that breaks it up into stages. The few that I found are three weeks straight. My company has an unwritten rule. " if you can afford to be gone for more than one week the we can afford to do without you"

I'd love to take some maintenance courses like that myself, just to have a better foundation for doing the maintenance on my EAB (Experimental Amateur-Built) Fly Baby. As an alternative, you *might* consider finding a place that gives the 16-hour Light Sport - Inspector course. In my experience, maintaining a simple airplane is pretty much just common sense. Inspection is a more-critical skill that I wish I was better at, and I'd love to that that two-day course myself. Retiring soon; that may be one of my first post-employment activities.

You can certainly go with either a Sport Pilot-Eligible EAB or an ELSA to give you the maximum freedom from having to hire an A&P. However, if you don't have much experience in working with aircraft, you might not be in the best position. This is one advantage to buying a certified Sport Pilot-Eligible airplane. You *have* to hire an A&P, and most don't have any objection if the owner works side-by-side and does the grunt work. In fact, many offer discounts for owner-assisted annuals. I learned a lot during the two-year ownership of my first airplane, a Cessna 150. Prepared me for my first EAB a year or two later (the airplane was a club airplane, but as the only active member of the club, most of the stuff devolved unto me).

If you do go the EAB, SLSA or ELSA route, I have one suggestion: Have all your maintenance mallards co-linear* before you buy the airplane. Know who you're going to for your first annual. Hopefully, you have an A&P do a pre-buy inspection, and you can just arrange things with him/her to come back when the Giger :-) is due. Any A&P will handle just about any production-type airplane, but finding one that'll handle one with Special airworthiness might be more of a problem. If you establish the relationship before you buy the plane, it'll be easier going to them with any questions.

Ideally, you also find local owners of the same kind of plane for checkout and general advice. Hopefully, your EAA Chapter will have a Tech Counselor or two, as well, and they can help.

I had great backing when I was in charge of the club Fly Baby. Our chapter's EAA Tech Counselor had restored the very airplane I was flying (N500F, the Fly Baby Prototype), and kept his T-18 in the adjacent T-hangar. The A&P who did the Gigers was a co-worker (he'd actually been my technical lead when I started with the company) and was a member an airplane club in ANOTHER nearby hangar. I learned a heck of a lot, and it gave me an excellent background for when I bought my own Fly Baby eight years later.

Good luck!

Ron Wanttaja

* "Mallards Co-Linear" = "Ducks in a row"

[wyoranch]

Ron,
having owned more than my share of planes over my years, I wholeheartedly concur with having my maintenance stuff lined up ahead of time. I had a great relationship with the mechanics where I taught and where the corporate stuff was hangered. I got really good at removing stripped screws from inspection plates. It got to the point that the day of my Giger, I would roll the plane in and start tearing it apart to have it ready for them. I do really believe that they appreciated not having to do the tedious work, and I felt like I was one of them.... Lol. I did have my Cherokee on lease back with the FBO, so it was infor the 100 hour Gigers. With me doing the crap work, I actually made enough money to do some nice upgrades. Here in dirt patch WY, I have none of this. I need to get off my rear and start making friends. There is an EAA chapter in Cody, and I am a casual friend with a couple of the members. So there is my start. Tube and fabric ac are everywhere here, so I figured that would still be a viable choice, where I am from, spam cans abound and trying to get someone to do proper work on tube and fabric was difficult.
Getting back to the original post.... Like I said earlier, I am back at square one. I believe I can get more from a homebuilt, but I am really itching to get airborne sooner. Should I go with a tc'd plane I am fairly certain it will be a t-cart. The ultimate question before I go any further is the lack of me being able to maintain worth getting in the air now?
Gigers can be expensive, but to do my own Gigers will put me years out of the cockpit.
Rick
P.S. I am going to check my old paperwork and see if all my hard work actually saved anything or if they charged me more for having me around asking dumb questions......
and yes I got the duck thing....

[VA Maule]

wyoranch I may have exactly what you need to get back in the air on the cheap . A 198? Avid Flyer with a Hapy VW email me virginiamaule@icloud.com with a phone #

[Tom Downey]

Yes, I knew it would (re-)raise some hackles. The problem is, when you're comparing production aircraft to aircraft with Special airworthiness, using a different term for one type of aircraft tends to be confusing. The cognoscenti know, but the less-experienced folks (the ones who NEED the information) can get thrown.

While I'm kind of picky about the English language myself (Dammit, "decimate" does NOT mean that nearly everyone was killed), the term "Annual Inspection" in regards to aircraft really has a universal meaning. I'm careful to say "Condition Inspection" when speaking to an A&P or (gawd help me) the FAA, but when speaking casually about it, almost everybody says "Annual."

We really need an entirely different term, instead of "Annual Condition Inspection." I hereby declare it will henceforth be called the "Giger." Let the reader figure out if it means performing an inspection, painting circles on the wings, or mowing the grass beside the runway.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

Ron, do you want to just fly have fun and do it cheap?

MOONEY MITE NEEDS A NEW HOME

[rwanttaja]

Ron,
having owned more than my share of planes over my years, I wholeheartedly concur with having my maintenance stuff lined up ahead of time.

My apologies, Rick, I *thought* you had considerable ownership experience, but couldn't remember for sure. You've definitely got the background to move to the Special Airworthiness fun stuff.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Ron, do you want to just fly have fun and do it cheap?

MOONEY MITE NEEDS A NEW HOME

Yes, but...I want to be able to FIT in it. Mooney Mites don't come in XXLT. :-)

Besides, the Mooney Mite isn't Sport Pilot eligible.

Ron Wanttaja