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Thread: Balancing nose wheel of an a/c with tire on.

  1. #11

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    I'm not saying that balancing should never be accomplished. But if pilots are experiencing MAJOR vibrations from what they suspect to be an out of balance tire, I would be questioning other things that you may be covering up by balancing.

    Everyone like stories so here's my inverse story to yours. Our bonanza that we purchased and flew for a while before deciding to change out the tires had no noticeable vibration, never questioned it. The tires had been previously balanced, and since the paint was in bad shape, I decided to completely strip them down to bare metal, inspect, repaint, new tubes and tires (of high quality) and ended up changing out most of the bearings and a couple of the races. I pulled the balancing weights off because I needed to strip it down. I reassembled the tires properly. Re-installed WITHOUT balancing and have been flying for 2 years now with no vibrations.

    Now my argument is all the other factors besides the tire being out of balance are:
    -Quality tire and tube of the correct size
    -Condition of bearings and races (Corrosion on the races, flat spots on the bearing, slop in the bearing, etc)
    -Condition of the wheel itself-Installing the tire and tube correctly (did you line up the valve stem in the right spot? Are there any folds in the tube?)
    -Installing the wheel assembly onto the aircraft properly. (proper torques, does the bearing fit properly on the axle itself?)
    -Is your shimmy damper in good condition? Condition of your struts, attachment points, hinge joints, play in the landing gear,etc (slight vibration causing larger vibrations?)

    If any one of those above things are incorrect and causing your tire to be out of balance, isn't balancing just masking? If everything comes down to being correct, and all the above looks good and is right, then there may be an imbalance of your wheel itself. The quality of your wheel could be poor or the indexing is off. I would check the balance of the wheel by itself. Maybe by rotating the wheel halves over a hole or two (as long as it's not an indexed wheel) it then puts your wheel itself into balance. Don't you think the manufacturers of the wheels and tires are concerned about balance and provide products that are at least damn close to being balanced? The aircraft I work on for work is extremely sensitive to vibrations, takes off and lands at 100mph and we do no balancing of the tires and have never noticed or have been concerned.I think people obsess over the idea of balancing, and may be over looking other issues that by balancing you are masking. Now with all those things done, and your wheel is just out of balance and there is nothing you can do besides buying a new wheel, then by all means balance (motorcycle shop would probably work out the best.) But I don't think it's a quick and easy YES BALANCE answer. If one of my clients was concerned about vibrations, there would be a lot of other places I would look first.

    Justin
    A&P/IA
    Last edited by uavmx; 10-25-2011 at 03:46 AM.

  2. #12
    rosiejerryrosie's Avatar
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    I am constantly amazed at how many ignorant pilots there are in private aviation.

    Now THAT's a way to make friends and influence people!!!
    Cheers,
    Jerry

    NC22375
    65LA out of 07N Pennsylvania

  3. #13
    Whatever you do, DON'T ask him about using Mobile 1 in your Lycoming.......!

    The problem he does address correctly is the wheels on EZs are very small and not necessarily that precisely made. The tires are similarly simple and the balancing he does works very well on them. The arguements about not doing any good are just wrong. Has more effect on some wheel/tire combos than others.....
    Last edited by flyingriki; 10-25-2011 at 04:56 PM.

  4. #14

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    Proof, there are a lot of ignorant people in aviation

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingriki View Post
    Whatever you do, DON'T ask him about using Mobile 1 in your Lycoming.......!

    The problem he does address correctly is the wheels on EZs are very small and not necessarily that precisely made. The tires are similarly simple and the balancing he does works very well on them. The arguements about not doing any good are just wrong. Has more effect on some wheel/tire combos than others.....
    Yes, don't ask me about using Mobil 1 car oil in your aircraft engine. You might just double or triple your engine life ! And small EZ wheels are actually square not round, that's why they need balancing ! And UAVMX appears to be your typical high dollar certified aircraft owner that believes EVERYTHING the FAA and the factory Gods say as LAW ! An I'm sorry rosiejerryrosie that you took my comment to heart. Did I strike a nerve ? And yes some tires are not as out of balance as others and so you won't get a lot of vibration, but if you do balance your tires and you have a small vibration, you will know it is coming from somewhere else, and it might be coming from a location that could kill you. Like from under the cowl ! My friend just got his 337 Cessna flying, and after his 1st landing he said he needed to fix his shimmy damper on his front wheel, because it shook so bad. I said how much air do you have in the mains, and he said 55lbs, what the factory recommends. Retractable gear Cessnas are prone to the same gear leg shake as Long-ezs and Variezes, so I made him drop the air to 38lbs and go fly it. And he was amazed at what a difference it made. Then we balanced all 3 tires (the mains are big 6.00's flyingriki) and he couldn't believe how smooth it was on touch down. But don't take my word, read some physics books, and stop believing everything these big Corporations like Cessna, Beechcraft, Piper, Lycoming and Continental say as absolute fact when they ream you $45 for a spark plug that should cost $5 ! They keep selling us this junk that hasn't changed much in design or quality since the 1940's ! Thank god for Rutan designing a safe, fast, efficient, affordable airplane so I don't have to fly one of these slow, expensive antiques.
    Dr.Bob ...fw190prop@hotmail.com

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Bob View Post
    And UAVMX appears to be your typical high dollar certified aircraft owner that believes EVERYTHING the FAA and the factory Gods say as LAW !
    wow, what?! I was trying to have a discussion about this topic, apparently you just want to attack people and not put forth any valid arguments. Where did I say anything of that nature? I pray to god you're not a Doctor.

    A&P/IA trying to bring common sense, outside the box ("just balance everything and your problems will go away") and help bring up other ideas that should be addressed to help PEOPLE STAY SAFE and keep their aircraft SAFE.

    Bring something useful to this discussion please

  6. #16
    rosiejerryrosie's Avatar
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    An I'm sorry rosiejerryrosie that you took my comment to heart. Did I strike a nerve ?

    No...but I've written you off as anyone that I'd like to meet.....
    Cheers,
    Jerry

    NC22375
    65LA out of 07N Pennsylvania

  7. #17

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    Justin, it was pretty simple on my Bonanza. I had a main tire removed at annual to replace a tube with a slow leak. The next takeoffs I notice a vibration; not severe but noticeable. It is clearly related to a tire that is rotating. The vibration is not there on runup, and it is there on takeoff roll, and it increases with speed until the liftoff about 70K. After liftoff tapping the right brake stops it right away. So I had the shop redo it and the problem went away. I suspect that the A&P was in a bit of a hurry and thought he did not have to rebalance just for a tube, but the took care of it, no charge.
    Once before I had a tire changed at a quick and cheap shop, and had vibration and had to go to a better shop to balance it .Problem solved
    I am not an A&P, but I have been around both car, cycle, and plane repair shops for 50 years, and was a mechanic in the A F. It seems to me to be good practice, that if you have a problem you look at the last thing that was changed,( ie the tire or tube) and also start with the simplest item first. The mechanics I use for this plane have decades of experience,and lots of satisfied customers. For another plane I use QG Aviation, who built award winners as well as a Osh grand champion, and that it the way they do things.

  8. #18

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    Valid arguments

    Quote Originally Posted by uavmx View Post
    wow, what?! I was trying to have a discussion about this topic, apparently you just want to attack people and not put forth any valid arguments. Where did I say anything of that nature? I pray to god you're not a Doctor.

    A&P/IA trying to bring common sense, outside the box ("just balance everything and your problems will go away") and help bring up other ideas that should be addressed to help PEOPLE STAY SAFE and keep their aircraft SAFE.

    Bring something useful to this discussion please
    Attack people? Valid arguments? The fact that you do not think balancing aircraft tires & wheels is important, proves my point. Of course you need to check the tire and the bearings and races, especially if it is your typical 40 or 50 year old airplane. The problem with people that have received all their training in FAA approved A&P schools, and have no mechanical engineering or car mechanic training outside of aviation are working with blinders on. Now it's not your fault, because the people training you should know what they are talking about. If you were not taught to do certain procedures on airplanes, then it must not be necessary, because flying is a serious business, and small mistakes can kill people more easily than a car mechanics mistake can, the FAA would have told me if it was important. And that is exactly what I thought when I got into private aviation 18 years ago. I'm ex-Air Force, I'm a mechanical proto-type design engineer, I grew up in the military, my father was a pilot in the Army and he went thru WW 2, korea, and Vietnam. In the 70's & 80's I built and raced Grand Prix motorcycles and Formula cars and won several National Championships. After getting into private aviation in the early 90's I started becoming aware of some of the strange beliefs and ancient mechanical practices that were considered proper in aviation. After hearing the same ridiculous stories and beliefs that were constantly repeated by A&P's and old pilots, I finally realized certified aviation resembled more of a faith based cult than an exercise in modern engineering. Now I am not speaking of Gulfstreams or F-16's or 737's; I am talking about C-172's, and Cherokee's and Bonanza's and Lycoming's and Continentals that are stuck back in time in the 1940's. The junk we are forced to use, magnetos, carburetors, mechanical fuel injection, pressed in valve seats, paper gaskets, oil dripping everywhere. I'll leave you with my favorite voodoo aviation myth, as why Mobil 1 pulled their synthetic aviation oil from the shelves. The myth goes on to say that the lead in aviation gas congealed in the oil into little clumps and clogged up the inner workings of the engines. And I have met many A&P's that swear they saw it with their own eyes. And they say it didn't happen in cars because they use unleaded gas and cars are watercooled. Well there is a lot more lead in high octane race car gas and there were still a lot of air cooled motorcycles and porsche's racing in the 80's & 90's, and the majority of winners were using Mobil 1. And when I ask these same A&P's how the lead got in the oil, they say blowby the pistons. Well there is less than 1 gram of lead in every gallon of aviation fuel, and if you had that much blowby the piston rings, allowing it to congeal in the oil, the pistons would seize in a matter of minutes. Anyway myself and many of my friends have been using Mobil 1 synthetic automotive oil and unleaded car gas in our Continentals and Lycomings for over 14 years with little to no wear.
    Goodluck, Dr.Bob....fw190prop@hotmail.com

  9. #19
    Bob, you have a lot to offer but initially calling many of us 'ignorant' isn't the way to start. Now if you're as smart as you seem to think - isn't that approach to starting a post sorta, well, to use your word...'ignorant' .....?

    Had an interesting conversation with John at Sac Sky Ranch one day about oil. When his shop used to service fleets and the new synthetic oil came into use he said business got very brisk...... The fleets changed back right away after a lot of damage. There may have been something different about that oil then compared to the new ones but I can't afford to experiment on the basis of one wild man with a nasty vocabulary and bad attitude.
    Flame on Bob.
    Last edited by flyingriki; 11-20-2011 at 08:51 PM.

  10. #20

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    Bob, you have some good points, but clear up one fact for me,Please.

    Perhaps 10 years ago or so, didn;t Mobile get approval for airplane use of Mobile 1 fully synthetic oil and didn't they market it heavily?

    Then after a year or so of use, there were a lot of airplane piston engines damaged and Mobile did take responsibility and pay for overhaul of many engines, both in line and radial?
    Am I correct on this?

    Did they or the FAA pull Mobile 1 off the market?

    What do you believe caused the engine problems? What did Mobile say?

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