Laser 2300

[JET72]

Hello All
Im new to this site, looks like a great resource. I currently fly a 2001 citabria GCBC. I bought it to build tail wheel time, learn basic acro and it has good resale value. I have been to a aerobatic school for 20 hrs of lessons, done about 30 hrs of acro in my practice area, joined the local chapter and am wanting to get into some competition in the primary/sportsman next year with this machine. What was unexpected was how fast I got hooked on this sport.
My quetion to you all is in regards to my next ship. I am 6'4" and weigh 230lbs. So I don't fit many acro airplanes. I have been in the front seat of the extra 300,very tight squeeze. I haven't been in a Pitts but I think it would be the same or less.
The Laser 2300 looks like a great machine. Great performance, good range for x-country and I think resale would be good. Are there any Laser builders out there with info?
Are there any other type anyone would recommend. The extra,edge and mx types are out of my price range. I also like the idea of and extra seat.
Also my GCBC will be up for sale with a fresh annual early next year. 758 TT and building. Great shape , 8 out of 10. 80K
thanks everyone.

[WLIU]

The number of Laser 2300's out there can be counted on one hand. They are new and there is little fleet experience that speaks to their ability to take the punishment of competition acro or even sloppy landings.

I do note that I see a couple of Staudachers out there for sale. One 2 seat and a single seat Panzl which is a Staudacher derivative. These airplanes are roomy, I have sat in one, and they have a relatively long and successful track record out there. I couple of friends have done their best to break theirs flying Unlimited and have not been successful. So you and I should not have maintenance issues with them.

Check into insurance though. All of the high performance homebuilts may require training in a comparable aircraft in order for you to be insurable. A friend had to fly 25 hours of dual in an Extra 300 to be insurable in his One Design for instance.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[RetroAcro]

Welcome to the forum. You could fit in a Pitts. If you happen to come across one without fitting well, don't rule them out based on that one airplane. Unless they're factory-built, they can all vary slightly. I'm 6'-4", 200 lbs. and fit fine in my factory S-1S. In fact, without a seat cushion, I actually sit slightly too low. But I have removed the ply seat bottom and seat back. I have replaced the seat back with a sling, and use a 1.5" tempurfoam cushion on the metal seat pan. Cockpit width is not even close to an issue. Everyone is surprised at how roomy the cockpit of a stock Pitts S-1S is, given the small size of the airplane. There are some early S-1C (late '60's) models out there built with a shorter fuselage, and those would not be an option for you. The S-1S is truly the best bang for the buck aerobatic airplane if you don't need 2 seats. If you need 2 seats, a Christen Eagle or Pitts S-2A (if you can find one) are great options. Eagles show up on the market fairly regularly. If you want more performance than this with two seats, then your acquisition cost at least triples. This is Extra 300 territory. As far as the Laser 2300 goes, I've never seen one, and not sure if any have been completed besides the prototype plane that York Enterprises sells plans for. Do you want to spend years building, or do you want to fly? For something in this class, you might want to look at the DR-109. There are very few out there, but they have much more of a presence than the Laser 2300. They are similar to an Extra 300 in performance, at a much lower cost. Still $100K ballpark for a decent one. A $65K Christen Eagle would continue to challenge you for many years. Good luck. Eric

[DShinn]

There are several underway, but none flying to my knowledge. I am in year 5 (& getting closer every day) of a 2300 build. The back seat will fit your size fine but the front is a tight squeeze for me (5'8" / 165) - even after I modified the seating to gain more room. After building a Marquart & rebuilding a Thorp, I would have to say the Laser plans are basic at best. A lot left up to the builder to design & a couple of errors.
The DR-109 is a more refined design. I would have gone that way if it were supported back when I started.
Todd Ashcraft now supports & markets the DR-109 now.
Again if you want a plane to fly, building one is not the way to go (in time or money) If you enjoy building, it is a rewarding experience.

[JET72]

Hey Guys, thanks for the quick reply. Lots of great info to think about. To put it quickly, I'm a pilot not a builder. With that said it's not beyond me to use a build Center to help accomplish this project. But I think that would push the cost of it up into the 125-150k range and from a quick search on barnstormers you can get into the bottom end of the Extra market for 180k. On that note, what are the pit falls of an older Extra other than the 1000 hrs inspection?
It might be counter intuitive but my thought is I don't want to buy and sell airplanes for the next five years. I'd like to buy/build one ship that will take me as far as I can go, with good resale if I choose to end the path.

[RetroAcro]

To put it quickly, I'm a pilot not a builder. With that said it's not beyond me to use a build Center to help accomplish this project. But I think that would push the cost of it up into the 125-150k range and from a quick search on barnstormers you can get into the bottom end of the Extra market for 180k.

The only "build centers" I'm aware of are for certain kit manufacturers where the kit components require only "assembly" rather than extensive fabrication from scratch. If you want help constructing a plans-built airplane, you are essentially looking to farm out the fabrication of components. This could be done, but would only save a few hundred hours on a multi-thousand hour project. It will still be an enormous project. Unless you hire someone to build the whole thing for you, you are still looking at a years long project. If you hired someone to build it for you, in the US at least, it could legally only be registered Experimental Exhibition (not amateur built). Not sure what the regs are in Canada. A hired build of something like the 2300 would likely cost you in the $250K ballpark.

...I don't want to buy and sell airplanes for the next five years. I'd like to buy/build one ship that will take me as far as I can go, with good resale if I choose to end the path.

Are you dead set on a two-seat monoplane rather than something like a Pitts S-2A/B or Eagle? I would advise that you are at the absolute beginner level of your aerobatic journey, and you very likely don't have a good feel for exactly where your aerobatic interests will lead you and how far you will go. Newbies often want their very first aerobatic airplane to be an "unlimited" monoplane, but the fact is that 95% of aerobatic pilots will never come close to truly outgrowing even the lower-performing Pitts or Eagle - as far as their skills are concerned. And their interests and goals often wander in different directions as they gain experience. A Pitts is competitive in the Advanced competition category. A small minority of pilots who ever get started in competition reach the point of becoming highly competitive at this level. That is not meant to discourage - just a little perspective. Reaching this level is more about the effort you end up putting in. You don't need to assume that you'll be buying and selling a bunch of airplanes in the next 5 years. If you truly outgrew a Pitts in only 5 years, you would be in the 1 percentage of pilots. Get your "ideal" monoplane right now if you can swing it, but most people transition between at least a couple airplanes in their aerobatic lifetime. A Pitts would last you quite a while. And then if you need, you could get a monoplane. That's two aircraft purchases in your aerobatic lifetime. I would suggest avoiding an expensive and time-consuming build of something like a 2300 unless you are absolutely sure that this type of airplane is a "keeper" for you - for quite a number of years anyway. You will not come close to getting your money back on something like this when it comes time to sell.

[DShinn]

As RetroAcro said an Eagle or S2 will have more capability than 99% of the pilots. Either can hold their re-sale value well.
A professionally built 2300 will cost more than a decent Extra & be worth far less than when finished. If you have to have a monoplane, buy an Extra.

[ssmdive]

I am 6'4" and weigh 230lbs. So I don't fit many acro airplanes. I have been in the front seat of the extra 300,very tight squeeze. I haven't been in a Pitts but I think it would be the same or less.

The Pitts I currently own has been owned by a bigger guy, 6'1.5" and 210 lbs. And by a taller guy than me. The only way you will know if you will fit in a Pitts is to go sit in one. When it comes to experimentals, you have to sit in that exact one. Since the plane was designed for a guy my size and has since been modded to fit a bigger guy, I had to add all kinds of cushions to it to make it fit me.

It might be counter intuitive but my thought is I don't want to buy and sell airplanes for the next five years. I'd like to buy/build one ship that will take me as far as I can go, with good resale if I choose to end the path.

If you want good resale value and two seats.... My personal opinion is to buy a flying two seat Pitts right now.
We have all discussed how much it costs to build a plane.... Heck I was originally going to build an RV4. But when my component cost calculator quickly surpassed the cost for flying examples, I quit looking. And Pitts perform quite well (Curt Richmond won Intermediate Power this year with an S2B.... BTW that plane is for sale http://www.barnstormers.com/classifi...er+Clean!.html ).

Good S2B's seem to be for sale at 100-130K.

I personally went with a 7ECA and bought an S-1S single seat Pitts. Both of those cost less than 100K together and they both fit in the same hangar. Insurance for the 2 seat Pitts was 2400/year for me. I insure both the 7ECA and the S1S for less than that. The only additional cost is the annuals.

[RetroAcro]

Good S2B's seem to be for sale at 100-130K.

Asking price...but real nice B's are actually going for around 90K.

[JET72]

All really good thoughts and perspective. I know I'm at the beginning of this acro journey and there are probably a thousand things that I Haven't thought of, so I really appreciate the knowledge here.
One of the reasons I like the Laser is its advertized X-country. I live in Northern Alberta and the closest competition box is 300 NM away. The next closest is 500 NM. so I'll be logging a lot of x-country just to do the three required competitions.
160 Kts with a 3 hr leg would be nice.
What's the average a Pitts/Eagle or a Staudacher would do on a x-country?