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Thread: RV or Harmon Rocket for Competition?

  1. #21
    Panhandler1956's Avatar
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    I have an RV-8 and I'm considering doing a contest or two this summer. I have just flown recreational aerobatics up to now so this will be my first experience in contest flying which is certainly different, but I'm looking forward to the challenge. I'll start out in Primary and then move to Sportsman. I think the RV can probably even handle an intermediate sequence in the right hands. If I was reading the forms right the only snap roll in intermediate is on the top of the loop - low energy. My -8 is equipped for sustained inverted flight, but I have the heavy engine and prop so I plan to ballast it for solo acro flight (it's at the forward end of the envelope solo).
    Now I just have to get my chute repacked....
    Brent Owens
    EAA 9 Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor
    Flying my RV-8
    Columbus, OH

    my blogs:
    http://iflyblog.com
    http://fixedwingbuddha.com

  2. #22
    RetroAcro's Avatar
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    Brent, definitely go for it. I think you'll enjoy it...just make a point of doing so! Don't take it too seriously or put too much pressure on yourself. You'll learn a lot and meet some great folks. I think you'll also be surprised at how much and how quickly you'll be able to improve your flying with good help from the ground.

    Eric

  3. #23
    Panhandler1956's Avatar
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    Thanks Eric! I'm excited to give it a try!
    Brent Owens
    EAA 9 Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor
    Flying my RV-8
    Columbus, OH

    my blogs:
    http://iflyblog.com
    http://fixedwingbuddha.com

  4. #24

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    Brent,
    I looked up the Ohio IAC chapter and saw the May Newsletter. You've already made the right contacts, and have taken the first steps of really having fun. Unfortunately, Vans air force website, which is fantastic, is not aerobatic friendly, which makes aerobatic discussions difficult. Doug Bartlett, IAC president, started a forum on Yahoo a few years ago trying to find a way to encourage RVs to participate. Ron Schreck, TeamRV, was the RV point of contact and posted on Vansairforce.net to solicit those interested. After a few months of discussions, it was apparent that there was very little interest in the RV group as a whole. However, there are a few of us that really enjoy using the RV at contests. Because we are fast, most don't have inverted systems, and can't hold the down lines very long, one of the main discussions was having a separate RV category. I totally do not agree with this. Competing in the RV can be done, and it shows we're part of the IAC family. Find a mentor (IAC competitor) who can give you some pointers from the ground, and you'll do just fine. I've been working on a Sportsman Free style that will be more RV friendly, but haven't had it critiqued from the ground yet.
    Now go fly and have fun,
    Bill McLean
    RV-4 slider
    Alabama
    (willyeyeball)

  5. #25

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    http://youtu.be/Wr4KRnqn79E

    That's me in my RV4 - practicing for this years - 2012 - sportsman. I was planning on doing it at the rocky mountain house contest in Sept. I'm in a trade deal however on a unlimited acro machine - that has fully inverted systems. so I may be flying that instead. Only cavote I have to fly mine out 3000miles to Quebec. from the west coast.

    I would agree with some of the comments of course. My Rv4 - is very capable of doing up to the sportsman catagory - which is a ton of fun - and the price of these are reasonable - usually 40 - 50 K can get you into a nice RV4. I have also flown the RV7's - they are much heavier and not as good at performing aerobatics as the RV4 is. The RV4 is the basis that was used to develop the F1 rocket and the Harmon Rocket. I would lean towards the F1 over the harmon - but of course it's the quality of the build that matters and the equipment on board etc... watch my video I think it demonstrates the capablity of the RV4. It's restricted to +6 and - 3 G - I have never gone beyond 4.5 - sustained anyways. Most loops I do about 3 - 3.2 G. I don't do a lot of Neg. g as mine is a non inverted bird. I would need to get a ellison throttle body or fuel injection and a inverted oil system installed. But it's not really worth it because it's not a competitor in the intermediate catagory - main problem I have is the smaller rudder - you don't have the rudder authority you need to do - snap rolls for example - also that wing is designed to FLY not stall - so it's hard to do good spins - you have to hold it in the spin and force it into one. snap rolls not so pretty - at least with my plane. If I had maybe more throw - or a larger surface area perhaps. it's a fun plane for the price and can do lots - similar to the RV8 but slightly smaller . Great plane for the money. Also most of the true aerobatic planes in this price range - would be cloth - or wood - metal - cloth combination - here you would need a hanger - due to winter - snow etc... rain etc... and heat from the sun etc... just not good for them - I considered a pitts but I have a paved spot but no hanger space - it's very expensive here for hanger space if any were avialble. so that's why I got the RV4 I needed an all metal plane. What you need to do - is follow your heart - is aerobatics something that you are going to live and die by? that's the reason I'm trading mine in on another Acro machine - because this is what I live to do. But if you only want to do some rolls and the odd loop - or cuban 8 once and a while - and perfer to go off to the fly ins etc... and use it for X - country etc... then the RV's may be what you need. Glass air's also fast and can do basic aerobatics - but land fast.

    Hope you find what you are looking for.

  6. #26

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    http://youtu.be/Wr4KRnqn79E

    Here's my latest video - of me practicing the 2012 - known program for sportsman catagory. in my RV4 - same as yours but lighter probably has similar capablities. Mine is non inverted bird. I have a few videos I did from different camera angles. Take some lessons though - before you try anything. I did about 5 hours - and that's all it took for me - I'm able to fly my RV4 very well - know what I can and can't do with it - and stay safly within all of it's limits. I'm having such a ball - I'm getting an unlimited acro machine later this summer. I hope to also compete this summer either in the RV4 or the new plane up in Rocky mountain house - that's the closest place I can go within Canada.

    Have fun - stay safe.

  7. #27

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    frank_rv4, have you had the opportunity to receive any ground critiquing yet? Do you have someone you can work with before the contest?

  8. #28

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    Here's the 2012 Sportsman routine flown in an RV-4 with inverted fuel and oil from left wing view point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCBww83aHds I have other youtube videos approaching the limits of the RV capabilities, but didn't even attempt the maneuvers until I had several hundred hours of acro experience. Definitely agree with Frank about not enough rudder, and I don't snap the RV since it's not structually designed for that. That keeps you from going into Intermediate level, but that doesn't mean you can't fly most of the Intermediate maneuvers using a Free style in Sportsman. I'm working on a Sportsman free style that sequence that highlights the attributes of the RVs which are speed and vertical up lines.
    Bill
    RV-4 slider

  9. #29

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    Yes actually one fellow in our club - we have about 135members - used to be an IAC judge - and one day watched me - doing some aerobatics - I was practicing last year's - 2011 - sportsman sequence. He mentioned my humpyty dump looked really good - i agree though - I would love to have been able to go to the 2 day practice session up in Rocky Mountain House - it's sometime in June. it's quite a flight from here where I live in the Okanagan Valley - in the dry southern interior of BC. To get there you have to cross about 4 - ranges of mountains including the rockies being the last range. I fly in the mountains all the time mind you and it's for that reason I know it's not easy to make that trip just when ever you like - the conditions have to be such that the upperwinds about 9 and 12K - are under 20knots and lower is better - as well you need decent - high pressure - clear sky etc... so it's hard to plan to be able to say - for sure yes I can make it on the 21st of june for sure I'll be there with my plane. I hope to make it to the contest it's on sept 17th I believe. I'll ask my buddy he's got an RV6a - one of my other friends built if he can "critique "me. My hammerhead sucks - mainly because it's just so hard to do with that tiny rudder - i have to do the "scandinavian flick " ie) opposite rudder just before the big kick then nurse it over with a combination of controls - so that I don't slip back - and head straight back down - and out. I have the loops - almost perfect I think - spins are pretty good but the RV4 - sucks really when it comes to putting it into a spin - as it's resists stalling - till it finally gives it up - you feel like you are hangingin there - ok stall already please - and I also sort of nurse that by giviing it a quick jerk - and rudder then alieron and elevator - all simutaously - to get it where I want it - pretty much stalled spinning headed straight down again - keeping track of the turns since 1 1/4 comes up fast. I use the ground usually a roadway etc... and or 2 lakes in one of our practice areas to remain oriented within the routine - it' s mapped out on my aresti - sheet - and I put in - OK lake - etc... or Otter lake etc... some geographic - or NORTH - or SOUTH - etc... something for me to know that when I exit the figure I'm coming out on North exactly - or South etc... and it depends on the wind direction as well. I am doing my best considering I'm all alone here - I wish like heck I could get some other's into it and get a small interior chapter going based out of our flying club. even 3 - 4 guys - (or gals) would be cool. I know some of the guys are into it - but not that much - the odd loop or roll. I'm much more into it - such that I'm trading my RV4 on a unlimited acro machine later on this summer. I'm looking forward to having the inverted systems and being able to do sustained verticle rolls - mine can only do one. That takes some effort. I'm not complaining though - I love the plane - it's a great little plane. It's a good bet for that fellow looking into getting started in acro. I agree with some of the guys - here's what I alwasy say if you can go to Magic mountain - ride all the coasters - especially the extreme ones without any issues - and want to go on them again and again - front seat - of batman the ride etc... this is very very much like aerobatics - milder but it does give you some sense of what your body will go through so if you LOVE that - you likely will also like aerobatics. Competition is not for everyone though I'm not sure if it's for me either I would love to get a few of the IAC patches though and don't care if I win or not - getting a patch would be so cool. I'm very lucky myself - that aerobatics for me just feels awesome - i know where my limit are - currently I have not gone beyond 4.5G - and no more than about -1 G - as mine does not have the inverted systems. When I get my new plane I plan to go to WA state to Bruce air and get some dual time in his Xtra 300 L - and learn some intermediate manuvers - then go and practice them. It's only 375 per hour! gulp. So maybe 2 - 3 hours! yipe will be a hard sell but I think it will be well worth it.

    The fellow that started all this - simply needs to figure out how much he thinks he will get into acro - if he's thinking it's just for a bit of fun - now and again - perhaps - as I'm doing - primary and maybe sportsman catagory - then the RV series is perfect for him. Not like it's hard to sell if he changes his mind. On the other hand if he buys a dedicated Acro machine finds's it's a bit too much for him those are not as easy to sell as they are for a smaller market. I also did 4 - 5 hours in a citabria first before I got my RV4 - although they are different - the fundimentals I learned was enough - and I have been able to do all what I learend in the citabria in the RV4. The citabria has WAY nicer rudder by the way. But it was for me the first loop my instructor did with me - that I knew this was for me! you hear this all the time eh. haha.

    I will ask my buddy if he can critque my routine. thanks for that pointer.

  10. #30
    RetroAcro's Avatar
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    Frank, hope you don't mind some input regarding the Sportsman practice video you posted. Purely constructive, and hope you give the contest a try whether you keep at it or not. I would enjoy the challenge of trying to fly acro as precisely as possible, even if I didn't fly contests.

    Hammerhead - Looked like you tried to pivot it as soon as you pulled vertical, and the airplane just rolled way over to the left. I guarantee you the RV-4 will do a good hammerhead. RV-4's have gotten good hammerhead scores at contests. It's such a simple looking figure, but there's a lot going on, and a lot to go wrong. You need to fly the upline much longer, until you have very little vertical speed left. Make sure you have full throttle on the way up. Do not reduce it until maybe you're on the downline, and then only as required for airspeed/RPM management. You will need to add a little right rudder and maybe a little right aileron on the vertical upline near the top to keep the prop from torquing and yawing off vertical. A good ground critiquer on radio can let you know the right instant to apply rudder. This is the most important thing to learn and get a feel for. Apply more right aileron and a little forward stick simultaneous with the full left rudder pivot input and hold it until the nose gets about 45 degrees before vertical down. Full opposite right rudder, neutralize, elevator back to neutral, and THEN center the ailerons. There's a lot going on in a short span, and timing is very critical to a good figure. And draw a perceptible vertical downline. You can do this in the RV-4.

    45 upline - You need to cap off the 45 upline to a level line before starting the turn. You started the turn before leveling off, and it looks like a climbing turn. This turn must be level. Also need to establish a min. 60 degree bank before letting the nose move into the turn. You must also keep the nose from dropping with top rudder before you reach your bank angle. Then it's just a coordinated level turn. You need to fully reach your final 180 degree heading before stopping the turn with forward stick and THEN removing the bank. Reverse the process for entering the turn. Roll out on heading and maintain altitude. You did a normal soft turn and started rolling out before reaching your heading.

    1-1/4 Spin - you need to draw a perceptible vertical line after stopping the spin. The 1-1/4 spin requires a pitch correction as well as a yaw correction to get the fuselage perfectly vertical after stopping the spin. Check your wingtip the instant the spin stops. If you're spinning right, you'll need to re-apply a little right rudder (after stopping the spin with left rudder) to yaw the fuselage vertical so you don't get called for a "dragged" wing. If you don't do this, your left wing will be high on the downline. All of this applies in the opposite direction if spinning left.

    Humpty - Make sure you draw a level line between figures. And everytime you transition from any line (level, 45 deg., or vertical), this must be done at a constant radius. You sorta started to pull out of the spin, hesitated, drew a short line with the nose down, and then pulled straight into the humpty with no level line before. You need to draw a perceptible vertical upline before pulling around the humpty to vertical down...it was barely perceptible. A humpty looks best when done at minimum speed over the top. You can do this much slower. This will also give you longer vertical lines. You had an OK pause on the vertical line down before the 1/4 roll, but the nose pitched up and barreled during the 1/4 roll, and there was no line after the roll. Should still be perfectly vertical down after the 1/4 roll. Any roll on a line must have an equal length line before and after. As far as vertical rolls go, make sure you're perfectly vertical (in pitch AND yaw) before rolling, and then you must practice applying aileron with ZERO elevator input. Due to the differential ailerons on your RV-4, you must also apply a little opposite rudder (right rudder if rolling left) to keep the differential ailerons from yawing the airplane a little when rolling at zero G. Precise vertical rolls are challenging and take lots of practice.

    Reverse Cuban - I know you don't have inverted systems, but you can still do an OK figure without them. The reverse cuban is a pull to 45 up, draw a line, half roll to inverted without deviating from attitude or heading, drawing an equal length inverted 45 upline, and then pitching through a round 5/8 loop down to level flight. You drew a long 45 upline, got very slow, and then did a half barrel roll, with the nose ending up way below the horizon as the roll finished. Learn to roll the airplane without deviating from your heading and altitude. This requires top rudder and forward stick through the half roll. So if you'd like to minimize the amount of oil you dump out due to no inverted systems, pull the airplane to a 45 upline, pause for an instant (not much of a line) do the half roll (left for example) while applying right rudder and increasing forward stick to maintain the 45 up attitude. When you complete the half roll, you should still be in the 45 degree up attitude. Pause for another instant (in theory you will be at -0.7G here) and smoothly float around the 5/8th loop down.

    Half Cuban - same concept, but the roll is done on a 45 downline instead of an upline. You're starting the half roll before the airplane's nose even reaches an inverted level attitude. You need to wait until you reach an inverted 45 degree attitude before starting the half roll. Again, this will result in very brief negative G exposure, but this will not hurt anything. Caution - do not attempt unless you have received training on this figure as described, and are competent doing level rolls (not positive G rolls with pitch excursions). I'm not sure if you're rolling the way you are because you're trying to avoid zero to negative G at all cost, or because you have not had training in this...or both. If you do a half roll from a 45 degree inverted line using the technique you have been using throughout the video, you will complete the roll in a vertical down attitude and likely exceed redline airspeed. This is very dangerous. I'm only describing the criteria for a proper competition figure. Please get additional training before attempting something you have never done, or are not comfortable with.

    Wedge/Sharks Tooth - Same technique as the half cuban, with the exception of a perceptible vertical line before pulling into a radius and establishing a 45 degree inverted downline.

    Loop - Not much to say except for that this one is impossible to learn to do well without good ground critiquing and a lot of practice. That being said, almost everyone first learning to do real round loops draws a flat spot on the 2nd quarter of the loop on the way up (not enough additional back stick), and does not float over the top enough, which causes a pinched, cursive "L" looking figure. Think about pitch rate. Say you enter the loop at 150KT and are doing 75KT over the top. In order to have any chance at doing an actual round figure, your pitch rate over the top must be half of what you started with and ended with. Forget wind correction for now. It looks like you have a high pitch rate over the top, which will make it impossible to do a round loop. Also, apply full throttle (if not already in) on the way up and reduce it on the way down only as required by airspeed, RPM management. Lots of folks want to reduce throttle (or even go to idle) once they have reached the top, for fear of overspeeding the airplane on the way down. This will not produce a good looking loop. For a given power setting, it's physically impossible to gain airspeed during a loop, as long as your entry and exit altitudes are the same.

    Roll - Again, I know you don't have inverted systems, which may be why you are doing a pitched-up, positive G, non-level roll. But keep in mind that the RV rolls fast enough that you can do a decent level roll from level flight with only momentary exposure to negative G. The engine cutting out for a second is perfectly fine. A couple seconds of oil pressure loss is OK too. This even happens with inverted oil systems as the ball valve moves and redirects oil via the inverted "circuit". The real issue is monitoring oil loss during a sequence. You could possibly lose a couple quarts during a long practice session with lots of negative G exposure. But not during a Sportsman practice sequence where you're minimizing the length of your inverted lines. Just be aware and monitor this. Otherwise, there's no reason to let lack of inverted systems prevent you from flying the figures in a way that would receive decent scores.

    You can learn good fundamental aerobatic skills in the RV-4. Keep an eye to the future (and the "unlimited" plane if you want), but don't get ahead of yourself, don't push it, and learn to walk before you run. Good luck, stay safe, and above all, have fun.
    Last edited by RetroAcro; 05-30-2012 at 05:30 AM.

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