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Thread: Question about IFR requirements

  1. #1
    geosnooker2000's Avatar
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    Question about IFR requirements

    Can someone take a look at this link (Piper for sale)
    and tell me what this panel is lacking to qualify for IFR ops? I'm thinking of buying a plane to finish out my PPL, and I would like to get something that will take me through my Instrument rating.
    https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search...-type=aircraft

    Assume this plane was purchased - what would have to be added?
    Thanks
    George

  2. #2
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    Doesn't look like anything needs to be added for basic IFR training. I'm not sure I'd actually fly such a thing in IMC. You've got only 1 (ancient but passable) NAV radio so that will be challenging. The Apollo 920 GPS and the 295 aren't IFR.
    And putting the Nav head over on the far side of the radio stack is likely to be annoying. Frankly, I'd ditch the 920, put the VSI back where it belongs and put the NAV indicator where the VSI is currently.
    If I was serious about IFR, I'd ditch the docking station and put an IFR GPS there (ditching the POS comm radio if necessary). I'd absolutely insist on pitot heat (I can't see if this has it now).

    On the other hand, Cherokee 180s are pretty nice flyers. This one seems set up pretty well as a VFR traveller and timebuilder.
    Last edited by FlyingRon; 05-21-2020 at 04:22 PM.

  3. #3
    geosnooker2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingRon View Post
    Doesn't look like anything needs to be added for basic IFR training. I'm not sure I'd actually fly such a thing in IMC. You've got only 1 (ancient but passable) NAV radio so that will be challenging. The Apollo 920 GPS and the 295 aren't IFR.
    And putting the Nav head over on the far side of the radio stack is likely to be annoying. Frankly, I'd ditch the 920, put the VSI back where it belongs and put the NAV indicator where the VSI is currently.
    If I was serious about IFR, I'd ditch the docking station and put an IFR GPS there (ditching the POS comm radio if necessary). I'd absolutely insist on pitot heat (I can't see if this has it now).

    On the other hand, Cherokee 180s are pretty nice flyers. This one seems set up pretty well as a VFR traveller and timebuilder.
    Regarding your comment about relocating the VSI, I've noticed 140s panel's are NOT in the traditional 6-pack layout. That bugs me. the 180s seem to be all over the place with instrument layout. I guess it depends on what year... I thought you needed (2) Two VORs? Is that not the case? I would definitely look to upgrade any 60s era radios. I would love to just go full glass, but am unsure of the total costs.
    Thanks for the response!

  4. #4

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    91.205(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
    (1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
    (2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.
    (3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
    (i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in 121.305(j) of this chapter; and
    (ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 80 degrees of pitch and 120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with 29.1303(g) of this chapter.
    (4) Slip-skid indicator.
    (5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
    (6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.
    (7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
    (8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
    (9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).

    Needs ADSB-out, too. (91.225)


    Last edited by dougbush; 05-21-2020 at 11:29 PM.

  5. #5
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    It appears to have all those things (including the ADSB out). The 180 in question is old enough not to have additional restrictions in the POH (it doesn't even likely have a regulatory POH).

    Yes, older planes typically don't have six packs, but it loos like this one did or was close before someone decided to use that hole for the (now ancient) GPS which I suspect gets largely unused with the 295 sitting right next to it.
    I'd put the VSI back where it belongs. This will make training easier.

    Like I said, for practical IFR, one ancient NAV COM and a pair of VFR GPSs (one old and the other ancient) is probably not the navigational capacity you'll find practical. I'd be leery flying in actual without pitot heat as well.

  6. #6
    lnuss's Avatar
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    As Ron indicates, flying without pitot heat in actual conditions is chancy, at best. And in Tennessee you'll certainly have plenty of wet conditions in IFR to make the pitot heat very desirable indeed.

    And keep in mind that changing out the avionics can involve a fair amount of down time, in addition to the expense, depending on a number of factors such as who's doing the work, parts availabilty and what work actually needs doing, since older aircraft often need more work to install newer avionics than newer aircraft do.

    So yes, you could get your instrument rating in that aircraft, but it's best to get some actual instrument time during training, if possible (sometimes it's not, here in the mountain west), and I'd not do it without that pitot heat.

    So sometimes a "bargain" isn't...

    Larry N.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geosnooker2000 View Post
    \Assume this plane was purchased - what would have to be added?
    Does it have a current Appendix E check? If no, when was the last one?

  8. #8
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    Probably not, but that usually isn't a problem. Occasionally the altimeter is crap and needs to be replaced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geosnooker2000 View Post
    I would love to just go full glass, but am unsure of the total costs.
    2 G5's, Garmin 375, ADSB and misc nic-knacks, plan on ~$20k

  10. #10
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    That still leaves him without a legal navigation source. The GNX375 is not approved for IFR use in certificated aircraft.

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