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Thread: Where were the 20's & 30's big round engine vintage aircraft?

  1. #41
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    He is a great pilot and has been flying a long time, but doesn't want to risk landing on hard surface
    As the relative newbie who has no grass landings to his credit, what precisely is so "risky" about landing on a well maintained runway? I would think that an errant gopher hole would be a far greater potential hazard.

    I am a 100hr Sport Pilot that is currently flying our Cub and Champ. We have a pretty good bunch of guys locally that for the most part, only fly between grass strips and local fly-ins. In a 15 mile radius there are probably 75-100 antique airplanes, not all flying of course. My dad has a Fleet 16B that we have spend 20+ years restoring, but he only flies it roughly 10-12 hours a year.
    Where do you fly out of?
    Last edited by steveinindy; 12-15-2011 at 05:11 PM. Reason: Typos

  2. #42
    Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Valid question Steve. Tailwheel aircraft are susceptible to the dreaded "ground Loop" and when they get going a little wrong it takes a skilled hand to correct and sometimes even that isn't enough. Grass has much less traction than pavement and therefore you are less likely to head to the weeds if you get a little off line in grass compared to hard surface. Simply put grass is more forgiving for tail draggers especially if there is a little crosswind. I have 700 hours conventional gear (tail wheel) and I land on both, but I prefer grass.
    Jim Clark, Chairman National Biplane Fly In, www.nationalbiplaneflyin.com. Currently flying: 1929 Waco CSO, 1939 Waco EGC-8, 1946 Piper J-3, 1955 Piper PA22/20, 1956 Beech G35, 1984 Beech A36 & 2001 Vans RV9.
    You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others.
    - Ernest Hemingway

  3. #43

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    I have attended Rockford, Oshkosh and now Air Venture since the 1960's. I have attended the last 25 years consecutively. I am a dyed in the wool antiquer who was raised around radial engine airplanes and now try to share the experience with any younger person who shows an interest. I am relatively young (49 yrs old) to have been in this particular niche my entire life. My wife and I own two 1930 Waco RNF's, a 1935 Waco YKC-S, 1941 Rearwin Skyranger and a 1973 Bellanca Citabria. We both are pilots and base at a very unique airport in Dayton, Ohio with a good number of vintage aircraft based on the field.

    I have attended with several of our airplanes in past years (not since 2003) and have even won numerous awards with an airplane I restored (Stinson 108). What I see as one of our deciding factors in bringing an airplane is the cost. Not only are the radial engined airplanes thirsty for both gas and oil, but simply getting to AV is only the beginning of the costs. We then have to pay for camping, we have to buy weekly passes, we have to pay $3-4 for a bottle of water, $10 minimum per person for even a hamburger and for what?

    I also think the Vintage/Classic parking area has lost alot of the appeal it once had. Yes, it is great that the Pre-WWII antiques still have a dedicated area, however, it loses appeal to see rows of Cessna 172/182 and Piper products parked there that were built pre-1970. I used to love to take evening strolls with my camera in hand south to the end of the runway just to see what interesting, weird Antique/Classic was parked there because the Vintage Parking was full. That has not happened in at least the last 6-8 years. Now as I walk south it is nothing but aluminum singles and twins built 1958-1970....BORING.

    To summerize, throw the antique people a bone to come. Give them free camping.....or some daily passes for free. They came to help YOU by displaying their aircraft and without them, your show would be lacking (as it was this year!).

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy View Post
    As the relative newbie who has no grass landings to his credit, what precisely is so "risky" about landing on a well maintained runway? I would think that an errant gopher hole would be a far greater potential hazard.



    Where do you fly out of?
    We have a private airstrip just NorthEast of Greenfield. Directly East of Mt. Comfort about 10 miles. Harter Flying Field, 7911 or Sauer-Harter on the sectional.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacoykcs View Post
    To summerize, throw the antique people a bone to come. Give them free camping.....or some daily passes for free. They came to help YOU by displaying their aircraft and without them, your show would be lacking (as it was this year!).
    Out of curiosity, what would you estimate the cost of arriving 1 day prior to the show and leaving 1 day after the show? just for camping, food. and life expenses. I know what it will cost for the trip to and from.

  6. #46
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    Camping will cost you an extra day for coming early. There's no charge for being a straggler on the way out. Food depends on what you make of it. If you pack in your own, you're talking small $$$. If you're going to hoof it over to a restaurant more.

    By the way, Vintage did set up a grass runway (mostly for the benefit of aircraft with only tail skids which were problematic to set up before) last summer. I don't know if that is going to be repeat thing and what the procedures for landing there rather than the paved strips.

  7. #47

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    Hi Jim,
    I recently helped finish up the restoration of a 1928 Buhl
    Airsedan that was started by Ed Marquart at Flabob
    airport in Ca. in 1995. The plane, NC5860 is the prototype
    of the Buhl Ca-3C. It was last flown in 1953, and now has
    flown at the Pellston, Mi. airport on Oct. 22, 2011.

    The plane is owned by descendents of Larry Buhl, the
    president of Buhl Aircraft, Marysville, Mi. The aircraft
    participated in the 1928 Ford Reliability Air Tour.

    The family would like to take the plane to Air Venture 2012,
    but a request for assistance with the insurance cost
    was met with little enthusiasim by the EAA. Due to the lack of other
    aircraft of this type, insurance is the cost that has made the plane
    very expensive to fly. Do you have any suggestions
    to help this aircraft appear this year?

    The current plan is for the plane to go into a private museum, no runway,
    in the spring of 2012 and never be seen by the general public.
    She is not an award winning restoration, but she is pretty and
    a classic cabin Sesquiplane.

    If the EAA wanted to build attendance of round engined pre-war
    antiques, this plane would be a nice addition. Sorry,I repeat myself, any suggestions
    to help us afford to bring her to OSH?

    Andy Bowman

  8. #48
    Try http://www.aircraftinsurance.net/ for insurance, but that kind of stuff is the owner's problem, not EAA's. If the owner wants to show off his airplane at Oshkosh he has to get it there on his own, but the question at hand is what can EAA do at Airventure to encourage that effort. I'm with Andy, throw them a bone, I hear a lot of antiquers complain that EAA doesn't care about them any more, and even though it would be a small part of the expense of the whole trip a free wristband and camping pass would make them feel a lot more welcome. I'm sure some of you have heard the joke about the new Oshkosh arrival procedures: "Fly over, throw out your wallet, and go home", it's humor, but people who bring in show planes, whether antique, classic, warbird, homebuilt, ultralight, or?? shouldn't pay as much to attend as people who drive in or bring non-show planes. I think every airplane that can be judged should get one free weekly wristband and one free camping pass. Raise the wristband price at the front gate a dollar or two, surely that would cover giving them away to the showplanes, wouldn't it?

    The grass runway is also very important to make the antique guys feel welcome, to show that EAA is putting out the effort to reach them. I know for a fact that Joe Santana and Mike Williams would not have brought their beautiful Air Mail biplanes to Airventure this year if they were not allowed to land on grass, and many thanks to HG and his crew for their hard work to make this possible.

    The NORDO arrival and departure procedures need to stay in place also, what a disappointment that they did away with that at Sun 'N' Fun, that will cause less antiques to go there.

    The ageing ownership of vintage aircraft will be an increasing factor, but a lot of the problem is just perception of vintage aircraft owners that they are not that high on EAA's priority list.

    I've only missed a few of the Oshkosh fly-ins in the last 20 years, and I go mainly to see people that I only see once or twice a year, but there is usually at least a couple of vintage airplanes that are really exciting to see. I've been very fortunate to have attended the last 3 Airventures on somebody else's dime and flying somebody else's neat airplane, but I've also flown in several different airplanes that I've owned over the years, and several that belonged to others that I flew in at my own expense. If you want to show off your airplane it's the place to do it, but EAA does need to pay attention and not get complacent about making show plane owners feel welcome. As Andy said, without the show planes there isn't much of a show.

  9. #49
    Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Hey Andy,I guess I'm not sure why insurance would not be attainable at a reasonable price for your Buhl. I fly a 1929 Waco and insurance is no problem, assuming you can find a pilot with 10 hours in type. If not nobody will insure those first ten hours. Would love to see it at the big show.
    Jim Clark, Chairman National Biplane Fly In, www.nationalbiplaneflyin.com. Currently flying: 1929 Waco CSO, 1939 Waco EGC-8, 1946 Piper J-3, 1955 Piper PA22/20, 1956 Beech G35, 1984 Beech A36 & 2001 Vans RV9.
    You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others.
    - Ernest Hemingway

  10. #50
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    We have a private airstrip just NorthEast of Greenfield. Directly East of Mt. Comfort about 10 miles. Harter Flying Field, 7911 or Sauer-Harter on the sectional.
    Ah....OK. That's cool. I might send you a PM sometime. I'd like to get a look at your dad's plane if he wouldn't mind. I've never seen a Fleet in person that I can recall.

    Valid question Steve. Tailwheel aircraft are susceptible to the dreaded "ground Loop" and when they get going a little wrong it takes a skilled hand to correct and sometimes even that isn't enough. Grass has much less traction than pavement and therefore you are less likely to head to the weeds if you get a little off line in grass compared to hard surface. Simply put grass is more forgiving for tail draggers especially if there is a little crosswind. I have 700 hours conventional gear (tail wheel) and I land on both, but I prefer grass.
    Ah....I see. I don't have any taildragger time (not for lack of wanting it!) and I've only been on one flight that landed on grass. I wasn't sure what the issue was that would make someone go "I'm not coming if you don't let me land in the grass" so I figured it was best to ask and learn something.

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