Where were the 20's & 30's big round engine vintage aircraft?

[H.G. Frautschy]

Hi Ron,

I can put your mind at ease on one point; the Cubs will not be "swamping the four or five rows reserved for the prewar stuff." Very quickly it became apparent that we couldn't accommodate all the pre-war Cubs in that location, so we are planning on a Cubs to Oshkosh parking/camping area centered around the current type club parking area just to the south of the Emergency Aircraft Repair area, with overflow to the east in the showplane parking/camping area. Planning on that project is an evolving process, we're still 8 months out; we will continue to refine it as we move into 2012.

[H.G. Frautschy]

Oh, and those of you who know Jim's airplane will see a familiar sight in your mailboxes in the next couple of days as your Dec. issue of Vintage Airplane arrives...




We all appreciate the fact that Jim took the time to not only bring his beautiful Waco to AirVenture, but he also shared his treasure and time with EAA's photographers so we could share with an even wider audience. Thanks Jim! (And yes, extra copies are in the mail...)

[FlyingRon]

Looks like you can get 90 in there (roughly, the cubs have a wider wingspan than the Swifts or whatever it is in the picture I'm counting so I'm adjusting a little) not counting Geoff's row. There's only about room for 24 between Sally's and the first of the three judges rows.

[Floatsflyer]

Hi folks,

I wanted to drop you a note to tell you 1) I really appreciate Jim Clark's posting of this topic, and 2) ditto his dogged determination to keep the thread "on target."
You bet we all have noticed the steady decline in antiques of all sizes, the VAA volunteer leadership and VAA staff (Theresa and I) are keen to turn that around. This past year's absence of those airplanes (approx 60 antiques registered, vs, a peak of over 120) was certainly noticed. A couple of things to mention; 1) Antiques are the only showplanes which are given a specific area in which to park. They get the prime real estate just south of Theater in the Woods simply because we know members and the public are especially interested in them, and we want to make it easy for them to find them; 2) The same is true for Antique airplane campers; they get their own row or two for the same reason. We recognize the unique place these airplanes have in the history of aviation, and we want to highlight that fact by treating them well.

H.G. Frautschy
Executive Director, VAA
Editor, Vintage Airplane magazine

Hi H.G.,

Just to get back to the original thread of the significant vintage decline this year. I've been coming to Osh for years and while I have very eclectic aviation/aircraft type interests, I have always been most attracted to the antiques. For me it's the combination of artistry of design and era nostalgia. Every category of aircraft(warbirds, ultralights, homebuilts, seaplane base etc.) has a flying showcase daily at Osh except the Antiques. Why is that the case? Attracting more eyeballs to the vintage area would be achieved if the hundreds of thousands in attendance could see them actually fly. This would no doubt be of great interest to the owners who should benefit from the same perks(rumoured or otherwise) as the warbirds.

[longwing110]

Look at that, there is the Grand Champion Antique right there on the front cover, the Grand Champion Classic is on the back cover. There is a five page feature article on the Grand Champion Antique, a Stearman, with lots of cool pictures. There are eleven pages of pictures of antiques and classics from the show, many of them in the air over the lake --- real nice photos, most with the owner/pilot next to their plane with a huge grin. 5 page article on the Grand Champion Classic, a Cessna 195. An article on Bud Dake, The monocoupe Man, a 10 page article with cool photos. This issue is a keeper! Every year I looked forward to the November issue dedicated to antiques/classics, it was my favorite. I also enjoyed the October issue reporting on the homebuilts at Oshkosh and the December issue reporting on the warbirds in attendance. There was exciting coverage of the planes and pilots that took their planes to the show. Heck, if you flew your plane there, you might even see a picture of it in print someday.

Oh yes, and on page 6, the announcement that HG Frautschy was named the newest member of the editorial staff.

Now pull out the November 2011 issue for comparison. Right there on page 74 is part of the answer. The antique coverage is not about the ones that flew into Oshkosh, but rather the Waco's that flew into Mount Vernon. The simple fact is that the low key local/regional antique oriented fly-ins like this one, the one in Washington mentioned in an earlier post, that's where your attendees have gone. They are just more fun. That's who your competition is. Look at the large number that chose Blakesburg this year. Given a choice, flying your antique into Oshkosh just isn't at the top of people's list anymore.

I've been a member since 1979. And it seems to me that the visibility, image, promotion, and awareness of the antique/vintage community within the larger EAA family has steadily declined. Used to be balance between the homebuilts, antiques and warbirds. In, my opinion, this balance has been lost.

Agree that a grass landing capability would be attractive.

Agree with the need for daily fly-by of antiques and classics with announcer, in a good time spot. Announcer needs to provide colorful commentary about the breed, which could be provided by owners or type club, to create interest/excitement.

Agree that safety improvements, such as Cleveland wheels and brakes, should not subtract points in judging.

Need better daily internet coverage of the antiques/classics during the event. Many of us are unable to attend and would love to see timely daily updates of the antique activity. Upload pictures of all antiques as they are parked. How cool would that be. Cool for the owners too.

Need better post-event coverage of those that attended in the pages of Sport Aviation.

Work with type clubs and local chapters to specifically target owners within X mile radius (say 500 miles) of KOSH to fly the antiques in.

Well, that's it for now, the rain stopped so I'm heading to the hangar to work on the Monocoupe.

Dave

[Jim Clark]

Thanks Longwing. Excellent post.

[H.G. Frautschy]

Hi "FloatsFlyer",


Anyway, to get to your question. It boiled down to the logistics of putting on the "Parade of Flight". Because of our location in the areas that are most heavily populated with airshow watchers, it became necessary to move the airplanes that were participating out of the parking areas first thing in the morning, and then, after the Parade was over during the Showcase prior to the airshow, they'd have to be parked on the south end of the field to await the end of the airshow. For some pilots, that meant committing an entire day to the effort, and many simply said "no" when they were asked to participate. There were other factors outside of that which also caused us to end the Parade, but we have been discussing the possibility of resurrecting it, particularly since support for such a display has been shown by EAA management. So it's certainly not a dead concept, and we appreciate knowing it was a valued part of the week's events.

[viper1day]

To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should...
Fulfil the rumor heard at Oshkosh last year. Open a nice Grass Runway!

I am a 100hr Sport Pilot that is currently flying our Cub and Champ. We have a pretty good bunch of guys locally that for the most part, only fly between grass strips and local fly-ins. In a 15 mile radius there are probably 75-100 antique airplanes, not all flying of course. My dad has a Fleet 16B that we have spend 20+ years restoring, but he only flies it roughly 10-12 hours a year. He is a great pilot and has been flying a long time, but doesn't want to risk landing on hard surface. There are a lot of friends that have the same opinion and would never even consider it unless there was a grass runway option. I know this is probably a major undertaking, but Antique and Classic aircraft are just as important as War birds, Ultralights, and Homebuilts. Think of all of the people that got their 1st taste of aviation in a Cub or a Champ, Back when these airplanes were new and reasonable. Maybe it is time to dedicate more than just a parking area for the old airplanes. Maybe it's time to create an area similar to the ultralight area, where these airplanes can fly when they want, most of the time in the morning, or early evening when the winds are calm, and have a grass runway to do it on. I am 35 years old, but antique/classic aircraft are my main interest, restoring, learning the tips and tricks, the processes. We have started losing the "Experts" in the antique classic community, and with the numbers of airplanes diminishing at Oshkosh, so are the opportunities for younger people like myself to learn about these great airplanes, and what it takes to keep them going, and flying them. Look at Blakesburg and just imagine what Oshkosh could be with an area dedicated to Antiques. Move the Tri motor down there, offer biplane rides, old car display for (20's-40's cars) It could be an event within the event. And to comment on someone's earlier post, what does it matter if a wealthy individual pays a shop to restore an airplane and bring it there to win a trophy...for 1 thing, that is one more antique that would be in attendance, 2...the person that restored it probably has an antique that he or she was able to restore from the money received from the restoration. 3...that restoration opened up the opportunity for someone to get experience working on a antique airplane project... and so on and so on. Hope I haven't rambled on too much, this is just my opinion, I am not a writer by any means so my sentences and punctuation isn't the greatest, but I really hope someone reads this and shares my opinion or desire. Thanks for the opportunity to be able to express my opinion to the aviation community.
Sincerely,
Ryan Harter

[Jim Clark]

To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should...
Fulfil the rumor heard at Oshkosh last year. Open a nice Grass Runway!
...........
And to comment on someone's earlier post, what does it matter if a wealthy individual pays a shop to restore an airplane and bring it there to win a trophy...for 1 thing, that is one more antique that would be in attendance, 2...the person that restored it probably has an antique that he or she was able to restore from the money received from the restoration. 3...that restoration opened up the opportunity for someone to get experience working on a antique airplane project... and so on and so on. Sincerely,
Ryan Harter

Thanks Ryan for your comments. I have intentionally not commented on this thread as I was interested in others opinions. I really appreciate your take on shop restorations and many of us agree whole heartedly. Nothing bad happens when we get an antique back in the air and it is shared with others.

[H.G. Frautschy]

To Jim and Ryan, plus the others,

We are actively working on a grass runway option; the most challenging aspect of creating one on Wittman Field is the very narrow area that comprises the south half of the airport. We have to meet all the requirements of a full-time runway, even if it's for "temporary use" during the convention, and even if it has operating limitations.
That means no overflights on approaches over people or planes, no significant building obstructions, the ability of the traffic to integrate with the flow from the other runways, etc. This has long been a priority for me, and now with some additional support from EAA top management, I think we can get something done. And believe me, when it's actually blades of grass poking out of the dirt, the whole world's gonna know about it!