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Thread: Where were the 20's & 30's big round engine vintage aircraft?

  1. #21
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    but the old roots - a big joyful gathering of the clan - seem to be missing
    I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I've never gotten that feeling at Oshkosh.

    I was gratified to find "some" of the old EAA spirit out on the flight lines and under the wings of aircraft (in the shade). I guess it is the "family picnic" atmosphere that is missing.
    To me, I've never found a difference between those areas and everywhere else. There are nice people and there are ******** in all areas of Oshkosh. If I'm looking for a "picnic", I'm going to go to something other than Oshkosh. There are plenty of fly-ins and regional events every year to get that "ol' time religion" if you will.

    EAA has been described by some as having become too greedy ($) and sadly many of those people have not renewed memberships.
    Some people are, to use an adage my grandmother taught me, just like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs: they are going to find something to yowl about sooner rather than later.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark View Post
    It's the owners decision whether to fly their antiques to events or not. If we let the fear of a breakdown control what we do with our antique aircraft they would all be sitting silent in museums. I choose to fly and am interested in doing positive things to encourage like minded owners to bring their birds to AirVenture.
    Jim I did not mean to imply that break downs would stop me, but they do worry me, but to be honest I'd rather go to the small fly/camp ins than the huge commercial gatherings like OSH. Concrete Wa. flyin is more fun for me, it is more relaxed and casual gathering of friends. WE had over 350 aircraft which most camped over night for the free breakfast, no prizes, no charges, no hassle getting in or out, just fun.
    http://concrete-wa.com/north-cascades-fly-in/
    Last edited by Tom Downey; 12-10-2011 at 07:42 PM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I've never gotten that feeling at Oshkosh.
    I hope every one realizes that is exactly how the flyin at OSH got started, flyin, camp tell flying stories, and it grew and grew, things changed, the bigger it got the more it costs until now it is all about money, who gets the biggest trophies, and the bragging rights.


    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy View Post
    me, I've never found a difference between those areas and everywhere else. There are nice people and there are ******** in all areas of Oshkosh. If I'm looking for a "picnic", I'm going to go to something other than Oshkosh. There are plenty of fly-ins and regional events every year to get that "ol' time religion" if you will.
    And that is exactly what we will do, we will go where the money and trophies don't matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy View Post
    people are, to use an adage my grandmother taught me, just like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs: they are going to find something to yowl about sooner rather than later.
    Jim asked for and got our opinions, and your Granny should also realize you can please some of the folks all the time but you'll never please all the folks all the time.
    I'm perfectly happy building my Fairchild to chase hamburgers not thropies and having an aircraft that is equipped to fly in todays airspace, and go where I like in a safe manner.
    OSH flyin has grown over the years into some thing I simply do not enjoy doing anymore.

    my old raggedy muffin daily flyer
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  4. #24
    Jim Clark's Avatar
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    I appreciate all the suggestions but I know there are some good ideas we haven't heard yet. I'm looking for more so chime in and tell me how you would finish these statements:

    "To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should (enter suggestion here)."

    OR:

    "I would bring my big round engine pre-war non-warbird aircraft to AirVenture if EAA would ​(enter suggestion here)."
    Jim Clark, Chairman National Biplane Fly In, www.nationalbiplaneflyin.com. Currently flying: 1929 Waco CSO, 1939 Waco EGC-8, 1946 Piper J-3, 1955 Piper PA22/20, 1956 Beech G35, 1984 Beech A36 & 2001 Vans RV9.
    You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others.
    - Ernest Hemingway

  5. #25
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    I hope every one realizes that is exactly how the flyin at OSH got started, flyin, camp tell flying stories, and it grew and grew, things changed, the bigger it got the more it costs until now it is all about money, who gets the biggest trophies, and the bragging rights.
    By the way, I think I should clarify what I meant by the statement you quoted. I meant that I've never gotten the feeling that the sense of community (that others seem to feel is lacking) is not present. I always feel like I am among friends at Oshkosh even if I don't agree completely with their opinions. It doesn't have to be a fly-in version of Cheers (unless we're trying to get Patty Wagstaff to show up), but because what drives aviation forward is the sense of creative and collaborative friction that comes from the lively exchange of ideas. That is what I see Oshkosh being about and that spirit is still very strong there.

    Jim asked for and got our opinions, and your Granny should also realize you can please some of the folks all the time but you'll never please all the folks all the time.
    That's exactly what she was implying with that statement.

    And that is exactly what we will do, we will go where the money and trophies don't matter.
    To me, that's Oshkosh. I don't see it being about the awards unless a specific person (meaning whomever is looking at it) wants to make it about the awards. Hell, I attended for two years before I realized they really did give out awards.

    I'm perfectly happy building my Fairchild to chase hamburgers not thropies and having an aircraft that is equipped to fly in todays airspace, and go where I like in a safe manner.
    That's awesome. If you ever come out this way, can I get a ride? That's one sweet plane you've got there.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinindy View Post
    To me, that's Oshkosh. I don't see it being about the awards unless a specific person (meaning whomever is looking at it) wants to make it about the awards. Hell, I attended for two years before I realized they really did give out awards.
    You probably did not realize what the statement in any aircraft for sale ad that says "Oshkosh Grand Champion" will make in the selling price of the aircraft.

    but now we are thread creeping and Jim is trying to stay on subject.

  7. #27

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    Hi folks,

    I wanted to drop you a note to tell you 1) I really appreciate Jim Clark's posting of this topic, and 2) ditto his dogged determination to keep the thread "on target."
    You bet we all have noticed the steady decline in antiques of all sizes, the VAA volunteer leadership and VAA staff (Theresa and I) are keen to turn that around. This past year's absence of those airplanes (approx 60 antiques registered, vs, a peak of over 120) was certainly noticed. A couple of things to mention; 1) Antiques are the only showplanes which are given a specific area in which to park. They get the prime real estate just south of Theater in the Woods simply because we know members and the public are especially interested in them, and we want to make it easy for them to find them; 2) The same is true for Antique airplane campers; they get their own row or two for the same reason. We recognize the unique place these airplanes have in the history of aviation, and we want to highlight that fact by treating them well.
    I agree with the poster who mentioned the needed upgrades in shower facilities, and we are, in fact, working with EAA on a plan to update and/or replace the current camping facilities for our fellow showplane campers. As someone who has tent camped either in showplane camping or trailer camped in Camp Scholler for the past three decades, it's clear we need to oversee some improvements in our showplane camping facilities.
    I should point out that we have, since 2010, had a "Vintage In Review" program, similar to the Warbirds program up north. It is held every morning at 11 am on the asphalt pad to the southeast of the Red Barn, directly out front of the new Vintage Hangar, and has been coordinated in an expert way by volunteer Ray Johnson. This is an evolving program, one that we intend to continue to improve. When the concept was brought forward, EAA was quick to help us by relocating the ice cream stand, which had been located on that pad, to a shaded location along Vern Av., to the west of the VAA Red Barn. They have provided audio support from Bose and we look forward to making it better each year.
    Another area in which we've recieved full support is the creation and maintenance of a grass runway to allow antiques to land at Oshkosh. This isn't nearly as easy as you might think, as there are physical and operational constraints as to where we can operate during that week, but rest assured we're doing all we can to make it happen.
    There's plenty more to do, and please believe me, we really want to make the antique area a fully populated flightline so we can all enjoy seeing these great, magnificent planes. So we'll be reading and listening to help us make the decisions to make this one of the great places for antiques to gather. Keep the concrete (or turf ) suggestions coming!

    H.G. Frautschy
    Executive Director, VAA
    Editor, Vintage Airplane magazine

  8. #28
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    You probably did not realize what the statement in any aircraft for sale ad that says "Oshkosh Grand Champion" will make in the selling price of the aircraft.
    Oh, I completely understand the effect that will have. I just continue to hold the point that if a person isn't fixated on that, then the issue of Oshkosh being about awards, etc is eliminated. It's a self induced pressure regardless of the effect a win will have upon the sale price of an aircraft. Personally, I've seen some aircraft that have won that award that I would not take if they were handed to me free of charge.

    By the way, sorry for any part I played in the derail. I just wish to make it clear that a lot of the arguments people put forth about Airventure doing something or being about something that it didn't used to be don't stand up to logical critique. I'll agree that some things have changed, but a good swath of the grandstanding and histrionics on this forum are based solely on self-induced pressure. Think the organizational equivalent of "get-home-itis". "Get-my-way-itis" you might say....

  9. #29

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    I don't know if I would fit in any of these posts but after 40 years of out of flying I bought a Culver cadet and am basically having it restored with some work from me. If the carpet is not out at the EAA I'll find somewhere that I feel comfortable. AAA appears to be very open with the antiques also. I'll make one stab with EAA and if I'm not accepted I'll go elsewhere no matter what everyone else does.

  10. #30
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    The last thing we need in the show areas is putting more ground vehicles in the show areas. I definitely think Vintage could do better on their "showcase." I almost always miss it (it's only one day and the life of me I can't remember when it is scheduled and I work the vintage flight line nearly every day during the pre-airshow/airshow time.

    The prewar stuff already gets prime parking guaranteed (rather than risking being parked in Fond du Lac like everybody else). I do appreciate the fuel burn that those who do attend bring. It's bad enough shooting out here in the Navion but bucking winds in a slower radial with a big fuel burn (my neighbor is one of the cabin Waco guys who has brought his plane to Oshkosh every year since he bought it) is a substantial expense.

    It's going to be really dicey this year with all the cubs coming in. Don't know where they're going to put them but they'll easily swamp the four or five rows reserved for the prewar stuff. I inquired with the vintage chairs but didn't get much of a definitive response.

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