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Thread: Where were the 20's & 30's big round engine vintage aircraft?

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  1. #1
    Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Sad Where were the 20's & 30's big round engine vintage aircraft?

    It is no secret that the attendance of pre-war non-warbird classic/antique aircraft at AirVenture 2011 was off dramatically. I was there and saw first hand the lack of representation. Sitting with my Waco I was asked "Where is everybody?" more than once by members of the public. We could have had a pick up football game in the empty rows of vintage parking normally filled with these grand old airplanes. I vigorously shared my opinions about this and was asked to join an ad hoc committee to examine this issue. I have some strong ideas on what I believe needs to happen to reverse this alarming trend and I am not going to share them here, yet. I do want to hear ideas from others on how to address this issue and turn this disturbing trend around. Thanks in advance for your input. The question; "How do we get the pre-war non-warbird classics back to AirVenture?"
    Jim Clark, Chairman National Biplane Fly In, www.nationalbiplaneflyin.com. Currently flying: 1929 Waco CSO, 1939 Waco EGC-8, 1946 Piper J-3, 1955 Piper PA22/20, 1956 Beech G35, 1984 Beech A36 & 2001 Vans RV9.
    You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others.
    - Ernest Hemingway

  2. #2
    DanChief's Avatar
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    Jim,

    I have a pre-war vintage and have yet to attend. Quite frankly I was very limited on vacation time in my previous position. Now that I have more time I will consider it, but have no interest in showing -- just showing up.

    ---------------------------------------------------
    Dan McCormack
    Smoketown, PA (S37)
    N24286, 1940 Aeronca Chief 65-LA (Lycoming O-145-B2)
    CFI
    http://flightmusings.blogspot.com/

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    I noticed the large unoccupied areas in the prime vintage area too.

    Is it possible that the vintage folks feel disinfranchised with the apparent direction of EAA to transform itself into AOPA Lite?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright View Post
    I noticed the large unoccupied areas in the prime vintage area too.

    Is it possible that the vintage folks feel disinfranchised with the apparent direction of EAA to transform itself into AOPA Lite?
    That's where I am with it,, plus the fact we owners who restore our own aircraft can't compete with the professionally restored aircraft. Here sets a Dr/Lawyer/ mister big bucks under the wing showing off their aircraft they bought three weeks prior.

  5. #5
    Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Question

    I appreciate the observations and concerns. I want to quickly turn this thread back to the original direction of ideas to fix this specific problem. Let's light some candles here instead of just cursing the darkness.
    Tom, are you saying you feel more of these aircraft would come if the judging criteria were split between owner restored and shop restored?

    Let me refocus the question:
    What should EAA do to get the big round engine pre-war non-warbird crowd to come back to AirVenture and fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?
    Jim Clark, Chairman National Biplane Fly In, www.nationalbiplaneflyin.com. Currently flying: 1929 Waco CSO, 1939 Waco EGC-8, 1946 Piper J-3, 1955 Piper PA22/20, 1956 Beech G35, 1984 Beech A36 & 2001 Vans RV9.
    You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others.
    - Ernest Hemingway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark View Post

    Let me refocus the question:
    What should EAA do to get the big round engine pre-war non-warbird crowd to come back to AirVenture and fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?
    I think we need SA to feature those aircraft more frequently. I'd like to see 3-4 covers per year with Antiques, 3-4 with Experimentals, a couple with Warbirds, and the balance with classics or other topics of interest. Basically, I think the reduced antique focus in the magazine causes owners to feel less valued by the organization. When they feel less valued, they don't attend the show.

    Not that we can solve it, but demographics are becoming a problem. A lot of the older aircraft are owned by older folks who probably don't stray as far from home as they once did.

    Also, as Tom mentioned, owner restored aircraft need to be more prominent. Joe Schmoe's story of rebuilding a Cabin Waco in his basement/garage is infinitely more interesting and relatable than the story about the guy who sent a dataplate and a big check to a professional shop.
    Last edited by Kyle Boatright; 12-09-2011 at 09:57 PM.

  7. #7
    Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Shocked Be ready to enter 7500 on the transponder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark View Post
    What should EAA do to get the big round engine pre-war non-warbird crowd to come back to AirVenture and fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?
    Thanks Kyle for some specific things to think about.

    Now I'll give this another try. If you're having trouble focusing your response here are a few suggestions on how you may start your comment:

    "To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should (enter suggestion here)."

    OR:

    "I would bring my big round engine pre-war non-warbird aircraft to AirVenture if EAA would (enter suggestion here)."
    Jim Clark, Chairman National Biplane Fly In, www.nationalbiplaneflyin.com. Currently flying: 1929 Waco CSO, 1939 Waco EGC-8, 1946 Piper J-3, 1955 Piper PA22/20, 1956 Beech G35, 1984 Beech A36 & 2001 Vans RV9.
    You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others.
    - Ernest Hemingway

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    I think we need to turn the question around. It's not about what the AirVenture should do for us, it's simply that if we want the AirVenture to be about antiques, we need to show up. The responsibilities on us. Jim brings his ship every year. I regret that I didn't this year. Let's all do it next year. AirVenture is fun whether your flying a WACO or an RV.

    It seems like everyone has a hangar tale about some inconsiderate attendee climbing on their airplane. Not that damage is not possible, but most of those stories are just that..stories. 99.9% of the attendees treat the aircraft with the respect they deserve and just want to look at them.

    Some antique types make an effort to show up in force. Look at the Cessna 195s for instance there are rows of them. We need to throw away the excuses, plan the time, fly to AirVenture, and have a good time. Jim does it, let's join him!

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    To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should offer the same perks to this group as it does to the Warbirds.

    While I don't own one of the above mentioned big round engined beasts, I do know a number of pilots who do. Almost without exception, most of them are now retired. As I can attest (being retired thrice over), retirement, while most enjoyable, usually results in a diminished income. Many of the operators of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft that I have known flew a lot more prior to their retirement (although its only a small sample) than they did after retirement. So it is possible that more of them might fly to Oshkosh if there was some method of decreasing the financial pain and making them feel very much appreciated. Of course the problem with this approach is deciding where you draw the line between those who qualify for the perks and those who don't. But I don't have to solve that since I'm a real scientist, not a practitioner of the social sciences.
    Bill

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark View Post
    I appreciate the observations and concerns. I want to quickly turn this thread back to the original direction of ideas to fix this specific problem. Let's light some candles here instead of just cursing the darkness.
    Tom, are you saying you feel more of these aircraft would come if the judging criteria were split between owner restored and shop restored?

    Let me refocus the question:
    What should EAA do to get the big round engine pre-war non-warbird crowd to come back to AirVenture and fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?
    What we need is incentive to fly it out to OSH.
    When we restore and old aircraft we would like to see points added for the upgrades we place in them to be safe daily flyers. but the EAA judges subtract points for not being box original. the best example of that is the near loss of the Spartan that had a brake failure because he was running the OEM brakes that are known to be a POS. had he known the brake upgrade would have given him more points that accident would probably never happened.

    For old guys like me the OSH meet has lost its appeal, due to the shift to the big money war birds, heavy iron stuff.
    and a lot less attention to the camp in type folks. I've seen the camp facilities at OSH and you can tell where the money wasn't spent.

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