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Thread: Where were the 20's & 30's big round engine vintage aircraft?

  1. #11
    Jim Clark's Avatar
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    I knew that perks existed for warbirds, but I don't know what they are. I think you really hit the nail when you said, "making them feel very much appreciated" and perks certainly do that. Thanks Bill, great input.
    Jim Clark, Chairman National Biplane Fly In, www.nationalbiplaneflyin.com. Currently flying: 1929 Waco CSO, 1939 Waco EGC-8, 1946 Piper J-3, 1955 Piper PA22/20, 1956 Beech G35, 1984 Beech A36 & 2001 Vans RV9.
    You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others.
    - Ernest Hemingway

  2. #12

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    The warbird guys do a feature every day with an aircraft on prominent display and put type experts, pilots, owners, etc. in front of the airplane with a microphone to discuss the airplane.

    Does anything similar exist for the antique crowd? I could see having several featurettes (sp?) a day.

    Also, I'd love to see some of the older birds featured in the pre-show flybys. I know that has been done before, but it certainly isn't done daily and doesn't get the promotion it deserves.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark View Post
    I appreciate the observations and concerns. I want to quickly turn this thread back to the original direction of ideas to fix this specific problem. Let's light some candles here instead of just cursing the darkness.
    Tom, are you saying you feel more of these aircraft would come if the judging criteria were split between owner restored and shop restored?

    Let me refocus the question:
    What should EAA do to get the big round engine pre-war non-warbird crowd to come back to AirVenture and fill the prime spots next to the Theater in the Woods with 20's and 30's aircraft that pilots and the public want to see?
    What we need is incentive to fly it out to OSH.
    When we restore and old aircraft we would like to see points added for the upgrades we place in them to be safe daily flyers. but the EAA judges subtract points for not being box original. the best example of that is the near loss of the Spartan that had a brake failure because he was running the OEM brakes that are known to be a POS. had he known the brake upgrade would have given him more points that accident would probably never happened.

    For old guys like me the OSH meet has lost its appeal, due to the shift to the big money war birds, heavy iron stuff.
    and a lot less attention to the camp in type folks. I've seen the camp facilities at OSH and you can tell where the money wasn't spent.

  4. #14
    steveinindy's Avatar
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    To encourage AirVenture attendance of big round engine pre-war non-warbird vintage aircraft EAA should offer the same perks to this group as it does to the Warbirds.
    I believe the perks are provided largely through Warbirds of America, which is its own entity but I'm not sure how exactly they are affiliated with the EAA. Don't quote me on this, but this is just what I heard from one of the local folks who owns a P-51.

  5. #15
    Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Thanks Tom. All good info and really helping me to put together a list. I wanted to post a concern here that was shared on another forum just to get it included in the thread. "I would take my Waco to AirVenture if I wasn't so worried about damage from the public."
    Jim Clark, Chairman National Biplane Fly In, www.nationalbiplaneflyin.com. Currently flying: 1929 Waco CSO, 1939 Waco EGC-8, 1946 Piper J-3, 1955 Piper PA22/20, 1956 Beech G35, 1984 Beech A36 & 2001 Vans RV9.
    You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others.
    - Ernest Hemingway

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark View Post
    "I would take my Waco to AirVenture if I wasn't so worried about damage from the public."
    That doesn't worry me as much as a break down on the way, which puts my aircraft in a podunk and no parts.

  7. #17
    Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Downey View Post
    That doesn't worry me as much as a break down on the way, which puts my aircraft in a podunk and no parts.
    It's the owners decision whether to fly their antiques to events or not. If we let the fear of a breakdown control what we do with our antique aircraft they would all be sitting silent in museums. I choose to fly and am interested in doing positive things to encourage like minded owners to bring their birds to AirVenture.
    Jim Clark, Chairman National Biplane Fly In, www.nationalbiplaneflyin.com. Currently flying: 1929 Waco CSO, 1939 Waco EGC-8, 1946 Piper J-3, 1955 Piper PA22/20, 1956 Beech G35, 1984 Beech A36 & 2001 Vans RV9.
    You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others.
    - Ernest Hemingway

  8. #18

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    How about a show within the OSHKOSH show?

    I certainly have been disenchanted with some of the OSH goings on. I have also been disenchanted with Sport Aviation Magazine. Too often I read in the aviation press (not just Sport Aviation) articles about a aircraft that at the end do not detail performance specifications...and I think some might be lying when they do provide information. Thus we see "Ain't She Pretty" articles without getting into the meat; the capabilities of the aircraft. I get tired of this. (The re-sizing of the magazine's dimensions is another sad "story" but not for here).

    One solution might be in the "Show Within the Show" with a more sectoralized structure...not just parking the vintage birds in a section but perhaps more of an effort there to make people feel appreciated. EAA has become quite the "big business" and surely people who bring their aircraft could be given a tank of fuel? EAA has been described by some as having become too greedy ($) and sadly many of those people have not renewed memberships.

    I had been away from OSH for decades and then returned in 2009 and was astonished by the huge size...and the commercial atmosphere. Perhaps the commercialization IS a necessary evil, but the old roots - a big joyful gathering of the clan - seem to be missing.
    I was gratified to find "some" of the old EAA spirit out on the flight lines and under the wings of aircraft (in the shade). I guess it is the "family picnic" atmosphere that is missing.

    On my original point...could we make a "show within a show" a workable solution to get around the glitz and commercialism?

    Everyone needs to feel welcome; feel they are part of the family. Perhaps show and discussions forums located right within the vintage parking area itself? I know there is the red barn, but perhaps there could be additional things directly on the vintage site? Oshkosh is a BIG place...and I understand one could only rent an electric transporter from EAA. You could not bring your own unless you could prove disability...but perhaps they worry about insurance with "too many" such vehicles? Nevertheless, it takes much time to traverse between sections of the field...and the population is aging...

    Personally I think it is WONDERFUL if an aeroplane is really "airworthy". It does not have to be a "cream puff". If you have a good and airworthy aircraft you shold be MADE to feel "MOST WELCOME". What we do NOT need is a gathering of aircraft deemed "unworthy" uless they happen to be cream puffs! Deep pockets do not make one aircraft better than another. Perhaps prettier - but not better. Somehow I think we have put the cart before the horse, thereby losing our roots.

    I sense something warm and fuzzy about an aircraft that is not just there to be pretty. Somehow that aircraft is more "REAL".

    My fractured and devalued two cents worth.

  9. #19

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    After thinking about this for awhile, I will throw out a couple of suggestions. I have been trying to think of some low cost initiatives that would help.

    First a daily fly-by with announcements. Not every antique, but maybe 10 each day chosen by a lottery or pier voting (not judges). Since many of those interested in the antiques are also antiques, how about reserved parking (not free) for those that fly-in and rent a car that is more convenient to the antique area? Dedicated and more frequent transportation to/from the antique area? Golf cart availability/rental? As someone else suggested, scheduled events/descriptions? If the grass runway happens, how about special training for the volunteers that marshall taildraggers? Some help finding accommodations for non-campers?

    These are all within EAA's control, not especially expensive, maybe revenue generating (golf cart rental, reserve parking). I have the National Biplane Fly-in and the National Waco Fly-in on my calendar for 2012. Some of those would cause me to add AV.

  10. #20
    danielfindling's Avatar
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    I wonder if a simple invitation would increase participation. E.G. A direct appeal to owners groups or a pre-war show/day akin to the warbird spectacular. How about a pre-war biplane spectacular? or Grass strip invitational?

    Daniel

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