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Thread: A question about assessing a ramp queen for purchase (disassembly of the wings...)

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by geosnooker2000 View Post
    Anyway, I am considering buying it as a project, but I would like to know the condition of the main spar connection bolt holes. Did that proposed AD get passed on the PA-28/32 wings? I can't find it on line. All I can find are articles about a "proposed" AD.
    The AD is in progress. Comment period is closed. Most of the comments suggest the proposed AD is too onerous. Waiting on final rule from FAA. The AD is intended to address fatigue cracks in the spar caps, specifically the lower spar cap. The spar bolts are a routine inspection item. Interesingly, there are about 19,000 airplanes that will be affected by this AD. The number of comments during the open comment period was 167.

    You'll need to follow the instructions in the maint. manual to remove the wings. The simplified process is use a cradle to support the fuselage, lift the plane to place it in the cradle, something to support the wings while they are de-mated from the fuselage and a rack to carry/store the wings.
    Last edited by martymayes; 02-22-2020 at 10:33 PM.

  2. #52
    geosnooker2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martymayes View Post
    That is reasonable. That's why it will take $30k to put the plane in flying condition, assuming you can get legal possession and assuming the plane can be legally registered. If it's being seized by a gov. organization it will be auctioned to the highest bidder, so you have to be the high bidder before you can throw buckets of money at it.
    Help me understand why. Is it because it is a piece of metal that is hard to produce? Does it have to be cut on a lathe? I mean, if I was to try and reproduce it, I would think it would start as a flat piece of sheet on an English wheel? I mean, I get it. A new part would be expensive, but I figured with the number of dead birds out there, the demand vs. supply of salvaged parts would be in favor of the consumer more than that.

  3. #53
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosnooker2000 View Post
    Help me understand why. Is it because it is a piece of metal that is hard to produce? Does it have to be cut on a lathe? I mean, if I was to try and reproduce it, I would think it would start as a flat piece of sheet on an English wheel? I mean, I get it. A new part would be expensive, but I figured with the number of dead birds out there, the demand vs. supply of salvaged parts would be in favor of the consumer more than that.
    It is because it is a part that goes on a type-certified airplane. The FAA mandates that particular standards be used in the production of all parts, and, except in limited situations, the part must either be made by the original manufacturer or one which has demonstrated (EXPENSIVELY demonstrated) that its parts meet the same standards of the original part.

    Say, for instance, you find the right Cherokee spinner for $500, and a $100 spinner from a, say, Cessna 172 that uses the same attachment and can be easily installed. Can you just use it?

    No. It *can* be used, but you have to get FAA approval to use it...which means you have to pay an A&P to file the appropriate paperwork. Perhaps a Field Approval is possible (Form 337), but you *might* have to obtain a Supplemental Type Certificate. The former will cost a bit; the latter quite a bit more. The FAA has been getting persnickety in recent years, too...they've denied field approvals for modifications that had been previously approved in aircraft in past years.

    Now, the FAA *does* allow "Owner Produced Parts." You *can* build your own spinner. But, again, installing it is not your decision. You need to find an A&P who will risk their certificate in confirming that the spinner you built is airworthy, and sign off on its installation. They're betting their livelihood on your homemade spinner. Think they'll do it cheap?

    This is why so many people are pleading that you show caution on this deal. It's not like it's a 64 Ford that you can haul out from behind a barn and restore. There are very restrictive rules regarding the restoration and maintenance of production airplanes.

    And now you know why homebuilt aircraft are so popular. None of those rules apply. My carb-heat knob broke last year. On a Cessna 150, I probably would have had to buy a whole new assembly... $130. Instead, I went to Ace Hardware, bought a two-pack of aluminum drawer knobs on sale for $3, and tapped one of them to fit.

    As for the cost of used parts, consider: Assume you're the owner of an aviation scrapyard, with a field full of junk airplanes. Say a potential customer shows up, and wants a spinner for a Cherokee 140.

    You check, and you've got a 140 hulk on the field with an undamaged spinner. "How much?" the customer asks.

    You look in the Piper catalog and find a Cherokee 140 spinner listed. Price: $2,000.

    Now: How much are you going to charge the customer for the used spinner? Ten bucks? Ha! You're in the business to make money, not provide good deals for cheap airplane owners. In all probability, the price will be 50% of what a new one will cost. A thousand bucks for a used spinner would be a thousand-dollar savings over a new one. And if the customer doesn't buy it...well, there'll be someone else along, eventually.

    Ron Wanttaja
    Last edited by rwanttaja; 02-24-2020 at 02:25 AM.

  4. #54
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    The cost of designing, testing, certifying, manufacturing and maintaining a Part 23 or Part 25 aircraft is staggering. You must remember that the FAA is charged with maintaining the public’s safety. An aircraft manufacturer can design, build and test an aircraft under the Experimental category. The design may or may not meet its expectations to go into production. Either way those are sunk costs.

    If a a company decides to proceed, the conformity process for parts must take place. Whether you are the prime or a sub contractor your parts must be conformed. That includes the drawings, the part part itself and the materials used to produce the part, etc. It’s all about quality control. We haven’t even talked about the cost of fabricating tooling.

    The FAA also defines handling characteristics as well. A company must conduct development testing of a conformed aircraft to demonstrate its meets those requirements and present that data to the FAA before they will even sign off for type certification testing which they witness even begins. The same applies for aircraft performance. This includes providing the FAA a flight manual.

    And that’s just a portion of the costs. One can read Part 23 or 25 and understand what testing must be accomplished. Even if a company does development testing, develops its test report and petitions for a type inspection with the FAA its not necessarily a done deal. I’ve seen cases where the FAA rejected the presented data and then the cycle starts over.

    Typically a manufacturer determines the number of units that it must sell just to break even. Lockheed California lost money on every single L-1011 TriStar that it delivered. It was not a bad aircraft, but they missed the mark on its cost to manufacture. It was such a financial disaster it took Lockheed out of the commercial aircraft market.
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  5. #55
    geosnooker2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post

    And now you know why homebuilt aircraft are so popular. None of those rules apply. My carb-heat knob broke last year. On a Cessna 150, I probably would have had to buy a whole new assembly... $130. Instead, I went to Ace Hardware, bought a two-pack of aluminum drawer knobs on sale for $3, and tapped one of them to fit.
    Yes, I already knew that part. I fully intend to build a homebuilt, but I need to start flying while I'm still healthy enough to get a third class medical. That's why I'm looking for a good used Piper to get started flying, and to have something to fly while I'm building. And before you say it, yes, I know.... "This isn't a "good" one." There's one in Canada for $29,500 (which would be $22,000 USD) That reads like its got some life left in it, but the thought of buying internationally seems so daunting... There is one in South Carolina for $13,000, but there's something like 2300 hours on the engine, so that's probably another $18,000 plus an ADS-b add, so that would be in the $35,000 range to get flying. This one is right here at the airport I would need to be at for flying lessons, and I already know the engine will need to be a total overhaul, and probably 50% of the panel will need to be replaced with good serviceable used instruments and couple of new side windscreens, etc. BUT, when I'm done with it, I would have a ZERO TIME engine on it, which would be far more valuable on the resale market from what I can discern just by shopping for them. Fly it for a couple hundred hours while I'm building, and at the end, I would have a 200 SMOH Piper. How much would THAT be worth? THAT is the calculus. Not how much is it gonna cost compared to what's available on the market right now. Because that is something I haven't seen an example of for sale to know.

  6. #56
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Get up to speed on BasicMed, you may have more options than you realize.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
    Get up to speed on BasicMed, you may have more options than you realize.
    One thing to consider with Basic Med is that you can't fly in Canada (if that is important to you)

    This from Transport Canada

    - The BasicMed rules are explicit that this exemption to the need for a Class 3Medical Certificate apply to operations in the United States only.

    - This medical certification process is not International Civil Aviation Organization(ICAO) compliant and so is unacceptable to Canada.Canada will not allow pilots operating under this exemption to fly inCanada.

    - Similarly, the U.S. does not allow Canadian pilots using a Category4 medical certificate (self-declaration) and a Recreational Pilot Permit tooperate in the U.S.

    Michelle ChartrandActing Office Manager, Civil Aviation Medicine Atlantic and Overseas regions
    -------------------
    Mark
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by rv8bldr View Post
    One thing to consider with Basic Med is that you can't fly in Canada (if that is important to you)

    This from Transport Canada

    - The BasicMed rules are explicit that this exemption to the need for a Class 3Medical Certificate apply to operations in the United States only.

    - This medical certification process is not International Civil Aviation Organization(ICAO) compliant and so is unacceptable to Canada.Canada will not allow pilots operating under this exemption to fly inCanada.

    - Similarly, the U.S. does not allow Canadian pilots using a Category4 medical certificate (self-declaration) and a Recreational Pilot Permit tooperate in the U.S.

    Michelle ChartrandActing Office Manager, Civil Aviation Medicine Atlantic and Overseas regions
    Well, that's just rude.... Come on, Trump! Let's get together with Canada on this!

  9. #59
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    OK.....didn't know ops in Canada were under discussion...
    Sam Buchanan
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  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by geosnooker2000 View Post
    Help me understand why. Is it because it is a piece of metal that is hard to produce?
    It's made by spinning a flat piece of aluminum over a form on a lathe set up for metal spinning. It's really not hard to make.

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