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Thread: S-76 Down with Kobe Bryant, Daughter and 7 others

  1. #21
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    Kind of like in early WW I some German pilots were lost going down with their planes, even on fire, because the rigid and foolish idea, now long ago disproven that the pilots should not have parachutes as it might make them jump out too soon.
    Actually, that wasn't just the Germans...the Allied brass hats had the same opinion. See Arthur Gould Lee's book, "No Parachute."

    The RAF finally relented just prior to the end of the war, but that was probably in reaction to the fact that German pilots had been authorized to wear parachutes a year earlier. They'd developed the Heinicke parachute system by 1917, and gave their pilots the option to wear it if they wished.


    I haven't found any list of "saves", but the reports by Allied pilots increasingly mention that their foes had escaped by parachute. Again, this probably led to eventual RAF approval.

    In "Ace of the Iron Cross," Ernst Udet describes his successful bail-out in combat. If you've read the book, "The Blue Max," the Heinicke harness is mentioned there (and not in a flattering light).

    Parachutes had existed for balloon observers, of course, but those parachutes weren't really suited to fighter aircraft...they were heavy, bulky, and didn't have ripcords....they were designed to be pulled out of their case by the weight of a man falling.

    The aversion to safety gear didn't end with the Great War. There was a lot of resistance in the early days of WWII to stuff like armor plate on the back of pilot's seats and bullet-proof glass windshields. It's said that Dowding issued a peevish memo, saying "I do not understand why the gangsters of Chicago can have bullet-proof windscreens and my pilots cannot." Tuck's biography describes his plane having a bullet-proof windscreen installed on his Spitfire just before taking off on a sortie, and coming back with two bullet scars in the middle of it.

    One should note, though, that the resistance was not always from the brass. Pilots sometimes objected to the increased weight and other perceived problems. If you've read the book "Piece of Cake," the author shows one of the pilots salvaging a piece of armor plate from a BF-109 and installing it behind his own Hurricane's seat. The other pilots are aghast; it's not sporting, and doesn't it affect the way the machine handles? As the phony war ends, though, more and more start adding armor.

    A lot of times, the limit of aviation safety technology is not merely the capabilities provided, it's the ACCEPTANCE of the technology by the pilots involved. The "Shut up and die like an aviator" mindset still exists.... we see it in reaction to every Cirrus CAPS save. There's a lot of pressure in the pilot community to NOT use equipment like that. "A good pilot should have been able to save the airplane!" A CAPS-type system might have saved the Bryant Sikorsky, but would the pilot have used it? It takes a swallowing of the ego, and for most pilots, that's a pretty big lump.

    Ejection seats have been installed in all US tactical aircraft since WWII. Nominally, it should have practically eliminated fatalities...but of course, that's not the case. Some instances of course it didn't matter, but in too many, the pilot was unwilling to admit that the problem was beyond his capability and that he needed to turn his fate over to Martin-Baker.

    The Bryant crash is likely to result in aviation rulemaking by those who know NOTHING of aviation. Like the Colgan crash, non-flying lawmakers are probably going to pass rules designed to "prevent" reoccurrence. And like the rules promulgated after the Colgan crash, there are going to be impacts far beyond what they think they're fixing.

    Ron Wanttaja
    Last edited by rwanttaja; 02-07-2020 at 04:44 PM.

  2. #22

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    The Bryant crash is likely to result in aviation rulemaking by those who know NOTHING of aviation. Like the Colgan crash, non-flying lawmakers are probably going to pass rules designed to "prevent" reoccurrence. And like the rules promulgated after the Colgan crash, there are going to be impacts far beyond what they think they're fixing.
    Cloud flying rules are merely suggestions.
    Right?

  3. #23
    Airmutt's Avatar
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    Flying under Special VFR conditions can be very demanding. PICs should understand the situation and it’s ramifications before requesting. Rotor heads tend to use SVFR more than fixed wing types. It appears to be a case of spatial disorientation. Whether he tried to climb thru the layer, inadvertently flew into it, got trapped, or whatever I’m not sure we’ll ever know why.
    Dave Shaw
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  4. #24
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Prelim report has been released. Prelims donít assign a cause.....but pilots reading the report can figure it out......very sad.....
    Sam Buchanan
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  5. #25

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    Why would the controller terminate radar service? ADS-B works where the radar doesn't.
    preliminary report:https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ive-Update.pdf

  6. #26

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    Um, no. When you are down in the canyons the line-of-sight signal fails. Your onboard GPS can get a signal but the ATC antenna on the other side of the hill can not "hear" you.

    Don't believe the advertising.

    Best of luck,

    Wes

  7. #27

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    I thought ADS-B could relay to other aircraft and then to ATC or something for mountain coverage without radar, like they did in Alaska.

  8. #28
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    Are all TRACONs ADSB equipped?? There are about 185 TRACONs. The last statistic I saw said about 100 were equipped. But that may be stale info.
    Dave Shaw
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  9. #29

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    For Mike and others, your idea that a ground warning system or virtual vision would distract the pilot doesn't hold much logic. Many airplanes have a warning light for a stall ( my T-34A) or a warning horn, and they may have a gear up waring horn, ( my Bonanza) and may have a low fuel warning light, just as many new cars ( my 2001 E 320) have a warning light for low fuel. I have ground warning radar in my Bonanza.
    If you fly an airplane with these warnings do you loose control and crash if one goes off? Course not. If I was doing a annual review in my Bonanza and doing steep turns and stalls gear up I don't crash if the horn beeps. And I don't crash my car if a light goes on. Many new cars even have a proximity sensor that beeps if there is a conflict with a car in another lane.
    I think the helicopter company did not have the sensor mostly due to human nature, we always want to ignore or at least minimize danger, save a few bucks, and take the cheap way out. Why do you think most school buses have seat belts for the driver only, not the kids?

    The FAA and govt as well as ins companies will almost certainly use this accident as a spur to require the latest safety equipment to carry passengers and no more excuses.
    If you disagree, fine, but want to bet $50 on which side prevails in any lawsuit over this?
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 02-08-2020 at 11:35 AM.

  10. #30

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    I am not a lawyer, my Son is, but I have studied relative law some. I would be glad to wager $50, that the helicopter company, will if sued pay a big settlement out of court, or lose any lawsuit that actually goes to trial.
    You can have a million hours of smoke and mirrors, lot of experts who will say whatever they are hired to say, but in the end a juror, likely a non pilot, will be told that these safety devices were available , have been for years and the company chose not to use them. And 8 passengers died. The main cause may be pilot error but its unlikely the case will be limited to that, and that's on the company also.

    I have a ground warning radar in my Bonanza and it is a safety item for ifr approaches and it doesn't distract or make me crash.

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