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Thread: Unclear language in exemption for no electrical system--ADS-B-out-- FAR 91.225(e)(2)

  1. #1

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    Unclear language in exemption for no electrical system--ADS-B-out-- FAR 91.225(e)(2)

    (Edit 6/21-- to cut to the chase, skip to post #15): http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?...ll=1#post76072

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    May we assume that the restrictions stated in FAR 91.255 (e)(2) ONLY apply within the lateral boundaries of (i.e. within, above, and below) Class B and Class C airspace?


    Take a moment to read over FAR 91.225 carefully --


    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225

    Especially (e)(2)

    (e​) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
    (1​) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
    (2​) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower

    I think someone dropped the ball on this one. (e)( 2) is very unclear.

    *What Class B or Class C airspace are they talking about?

    * Does the "below the altitude of the ceiling" clause of (e)(2) only apply when you are actually within the lateral boundaries (within, above, or below) Class B or Class C airspace? If so, why didn't they specify that, just like they did in part (d)(3)?

    Note, by the way, that FAR 91.225(d)(3), to which aircraft w/o electrical systems do NOT appear to be exempt, already prohibits flight without ADS-B-out BELOW 10,000' MSL above the ceiling of underlying Class B and C airspace. Therefore if (e)(2) is interpreted as noted above, it really only is functioning to additionally prohibit aircraft with no electrical system and no ADS-B-out from flying ABOVE 10,000' above the ceiling of underlying Class B and C, and also from flying in the very rare bits of airspace that are simultaneously below the shelf of overlying Class B or C and above 10,000' MSL (only applies to two pieces of the KSLC Class B).


    * Or does the "below the altitude of the ceiling" clause of (e)(2) apply even if Class B or C airspace is 10 miles off your wingtip?

    * Likewise the below-10,000'-MSL clause of (e)(2)-- does it apply only within the lateral boundaries (within, above, or below) Class B or Class C airspace?

    * Or does it simply apply EVERYWHERE, thus totally negating any relief that paragraph (e) would otherwise offer to section (d)(4), the requirement for ADS-B-Out in airspace over the lower 48 states that is simultaneously above 2500' AGL and 10,000' AGL?

    * Or is there some other nuance that I'm not understanding, as to where the below-10,000'-MSL clause of (e)(2) is supposed to apply?

    * Is there some intimation that the below-the-altitude-of-the-ceiling clause of (e)(2) and/or the below-10,000'-MSL clause of (e)(2) are supposed to somehow apply throughout the entire airspace enclosed by any of the 30-mile circles referenced in (d)(2)? With the point being that you are supposed to stay below the altitude of the ceiling of any Class B or C airspace that may exist anywhere in a given one of those circles? I'm not seeing that, and also that would also leave it unclear as to whether you could fly above 10,000' within those circles.

    As I'm reading it, it's really only a rather limited airspace where (e)(2) is additionally preventing an aircraft with no electrical system and no ADS-B-out from flying-- i.e. where that aircraft could fly if (e)(2) weren't there in the reg-- and that airspace is above the ceiling of underlying Class B or C airspace, including the airspace higher than 10,000' MSL, and also in those very unusual bits of airspace that are under a Class B or C shelf yet are higher than 10,000' MSL.

    Am I missing something? Is the FAA going to interpret (e)(2) in a much broader way--perhaps to mean that aircraft without electrical systems and without ADS-B-out can't fly in ANY airspace that is simultaneously above 10,000' MSL and 2500' AGL over the lower 48?

    The language of (e)(2) is unclear enough that I'd sure like to see something from the FAA explicitly clarifying this.

    Any insights, or links to any existing FAA guidance on how FAR 91.255, and especially (e)(2), will affect aircraft without electrical systems and without ADS-B-out?

    Can we simply assume that the restrictions stated in (e)(2) only apply within the lateral boundaries of (i.e. within, above, and below) Class B and Class C airspace, and be done with it?

    If I didn't explain all that clearly enough, visit this link for another presentation of essentially the same question
    https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/65697/a-question-about-far-91-225e2-pertains-to-ads-b-out-requirement-and-aircr

    Steve

    Last edited by quietflyer; 06-21-2019 at 10:09 AM. Reason: clarify

  2. #2

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    re 91.255(e)(2) and where we may fly w no electrical system or ADS-B-out

    Here's the shorter version of all that:

    Can we simply assume that the restrictions stated in FAR 91.255 (e)(2) ONLY apply within the lateral boundaries of (i.e. within, above, and below) Class B and Class C airspace, and be done with it?

    If not, where else do they apply?

    (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
    (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
    (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower

    See previous post for more if that's not clear

    Steve
    Last edited by quietflyer; 06-20-2019 at 01:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quietflyer View Post

    Can we simply assume that the restrictions stated in FAR 91.255 (e)(2) ONLY apply within the lateral boundaries of (i.e. within, above, and below) Class B and Class C airspace, and be done with it?

    This 2017 AOPA article more or less suggests the answer is "yes". However it would be nice to see some explicit reassurance from the FAA on this regard, since the language of the regulation is really quite unclear.

    "The regulation 14 CFR 91.225(e) allows aircraft not certificated with an electrical system, including balloons and gliders, not equipped with ADS-B Out to operate within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport—basically, within its Mode C veil—while remaining outside of any Class B or Class C airspace. These aircraft can operate as high as 17,999 feet msl except above Class B or Class C airspace; they also can operate beneath Class B and Class C airspace. "


    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...rical-aircraft

    Steve
    Last edited by quietflyer; 06-20-2019 at 01:41 PM.

  4. #4

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    OK, what the heck just happened to all three posts in this thread? Do I need to redo them? They were fine a minute ago. Is there a problem with using bold font?
    Last edited by quietflyer; 06-20-2019 at 01:33 PM.

  5. #5
    EAA Staff / Moderator Hal Bryan's Avatar
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    They all look perfectly normal to me - bolded appropriately, etc. I just checked in two different browsers, no problems.

    Hal Bryan
    EAA Lifetime #638979
    Senior Editor
    EAA—The Spirit of Aviation

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    I just went and changed all the bold to Arial Black. Wasn't working for me before then. Using Chrome on Vista but never had trouble with any website before in this manner. Thanks for the note though.

  7. #7

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    The way I've read the regs are that if you are exempt from the transponder in that particular airspace, then you are also exempt from the same airspace concerning ADSB.
    That means you can fly your Cub in the mode C Veil without a transponder and ADSB, but not actually in Class B or C airspace.
    Remember Class B, and the Veil that goes with it are two separate airspaces, and with different requirements.

  8. #8

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    An additional question may be, "what constitutes an electrical system" ? Is a hard mounted motorcycle battery operating a nav/com radio and intercom considered an electrical system ? How about adding a wind driven generator to that. Neither the FARs or my local FSDO has the answer.

  9. #9
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Brown View Post
    An additional question may be, "what constitutes an electrical system" ? Is a hard mounted motorcycle battery operating a nav/com radio and intercom considered an electrical system ? How about adding a wind driven generator to that. Neither the FARs or my local FSDO has the answer.
    Back when the transponder requirement came out, the FAA said that an "engine-driven electrical system" consisted of a generator or alternator directly driven by the engine, a regulator that controls the output, and a battery to store the power. If you just have a battery, you are ok.

    A better question is, what constitutes "originally certified" with an electrical system. Does this refer to an airworthiness certificate, or type certificate. If it means "airworthiness", then the phrase "and has not been sequently certified with such a system" makes no sense. It's obviously referring to a Supplemental TYPE Certificate. And homebuilts don't have type certificates...

    Ron Wanttaja

  10. #10

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    I liked that old rule about engine driven electrical system, because I operated an Aeronca L-3 with a battery and a wind driven generator, but was not required to have a transponder or encoder. Now, if you just had a battery, but had it connected to nav lights or a beacon in addition to your radio, do you now have an electrical system ?

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