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Thread: Mixing 100LL with gasoline

  1. #11
    rwanttaja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Giger View Post
    So....add a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil and it'll be okay. Got it.
    You'll find it keeps the elephants out of the hangar, too.....

    Ron "How it got in my pajamas, I'll never know" Wanttaja

  2. #12

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    I agree with all the previous comments, but will also add a couple more … one for each fuel to be fair

    1. With autofuel (everyone has mentioned no alcohol), there are two mixes: summer and winter. The RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure) is lower in the winter so that cars start easier under colder conditions. The vapor lock issues arise when you burn winter fuel in the heat of summer.

    2. The aromatic content of Avgas is significantly higher than autofuel. One has to be careful of rubber parts reacting to the higher aromatics. It is also blamed for some wet wing fuel tanks to leak when it breaks down older sealants.

    My two cents,
    Ron "in an earlier life worked the EAA autofuel test program" Blum

  3. #13
    BusyLittleShop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Sacramento California
    How lead got into our fuels and how lead was removed or reduced from our fuels are interesting stories...

    The story how lead got into our fuels started with high compression
    aircraft engines back in 1921... a young engineer fresh out of college
    named Charles Kettering started Dayton Engineering Labs Company or
    Delco... he invented the first battery ignition systems for aircraft
    engines... when protagonists in the field of aviation widely blamed
    his battery ignition systems on knock or detonation Kettering
    commanded his young assistant Thomas A. Midgley on a investigation of
    detonation. motivated as much by a desire to protect Delco's
    reputation as by scientific altruism. Midgley worked for months over
    his single cylinder engine and famous "bouncing pin" which was devised
    to measure differences in detonation pressures. and he soon determined
    that detonation depended on both fuel grade and engine compression
    ratio. Thinking at first that fuel color influenced knock. Midgley
    added iodine to his fuel theorizing a dark-colored fuel would absorb
    more heat energy and vaporize more quickly. When the knock diminished
    he smelled success, but it did not come in the form . he suspected.
    Further experiments forced him to discard the fuel color idea but led
    in turn to a long. frustrating line of trial anti-knock additives. GM.
    parent company of Delco. encouraged Midgley and his assistant T. A.
    Boyd. who in a vigorous program, individually tested more than 30,000
    compounds and their discouragement mounted with the list. On December
    9, 1921. a chilly Friday. Midgley and Boyd were anticipating the
    weekend's respite from their series of relentless, routine tests when
    suddenly the engine was not behaving the same at all. Jolted into
    disbelief, Midgley had quite literally stumbled onto the remarkable
    antiknock properties of an obscure substance called tetraethyl lead.
    This proved to be without doubt the greatest single discovery in the
    development of aviation fuels; not only did this additive make higher
    power possible. it enabled the aeroplane to fly farther on a given
    amount of fuel- it gave the aeroplane range- and in turn enabled the
    successful engines that dominated aviation until the advent of gas
    turbines. In 1967 the remarkable Mr. Midgley was still active as
    president of the American Chemical Society.

    The story on how lead was legislated out of our fuels started when
    Clair Cameron Patterson could not isolate his rock samples from lead
    contamination in the lab in an effort to determine the age of the
    earth... he was shocked to learn lead was everywhere and developed the
    first sealed clean lab to prevent lead from messing up the data...

    The University of Chicago developed a new method for counting lead
    isotopes in igneous rocks, and assigned it to Clair Cameron Patterson
    as a dissertation project in 1948. During this period he operated
    under the assumption that meteorites are left-over materials from the
    creation of the Solar System, and thus by measuring the age of one of
    these rocks the age of the Earth would be revealed. Gathering the
    materials required time, and in 1953, Clair Cameron Patterson had his
    final specimens from the Canyon Diablo meteorite. He took them to the
    Argonne National Laboratory, where he was granted time on a late model
    mass spectrometer.

    In a meeting in Wisconsin soon afterward, Patterson revealed the
    results of his study. The definitive age of the Earth is 4.550 billion
    years (give or take 70 million years). This number still stands,
    although the margin of error is now down to about 20 million years.

    His ability to isolate microgram quantities of lead from ordinary
    rocks and determine their isotope composition led him to examining the
    lead in ocean sediment samples from the Atlantic and Pacific. Deriving
    from the different ages at which the landmasses had drained into the
    ocean, he was able to show that the amount of anthropogenic lead
    presently dispersed into the environment was about eighty times the
    amount being deposited in the ocean sediments: the geochemical cycle
    for lead appeared to be badly out of balance.

    The limitations of the analytic procedures led to him using other
    approaches. He found that deep ocean water contained 3-10 times less
    lead than surface water, in contrast to similar metals such as barium.
    This led him to doubt the commonly held view that lead concentrations
    had only grown by a factor of two over naturally occurring levels.

    Patterson returned to the problem of his initial experiment and the
    contamination he had found in the blanks used for sampling. He
    determined through ice-core samples from Greenland that atmospheric
    lead levels had begun to increase steadily and dangerously soon after
    tetraethyl lead began to see widespread use in fuel, when it was
    discovered to reduce engine knock in internal combustion engines.
    Patterson subsequently identified this, along with the various other
    uses of lead in manufacturing, as the cause of the contamination of
    his samples, and because of the significant public-health implications
    of his findings, he devoted the rest of his life to removing as much
    introduced lead from the environment as possible.

    Beginning in 1965, with the publication of Contaminated and Natural
    Lead Environments of Man, Patterson tried to draw public attention to
    the problem of increased lead levels in the environment and the food
    chain due to lead from industrial sources. Perhaps partly because he
    was criticizing the experimental methods of other scientists, he
    encountered strong opposition from recognized experts such as Robert
    A. Kehoe.

    In his effort to ensure that lead was removed from gasoline
    (petroleum), Patterson fought against the lobbying power of the Ethyl
    Corporation (which employed Kehoe), against the legacy of Thomas
    Midgley — which included tetraethyllead and chlorofluorocarbons — and
    against the lead additive industry as a whole. Following Patterson's
    criticism of the lead industry, he was refused contracts with many
    research organizations, including the supposedly neutral United States
    Public Health Service. In 1971 he was excluded from a National
    Research Council (NRC) panel on atmospheric lead contamination, even
    though he was the foremost expert on the subject at that time.

    Patterson's efforts ultimately led to the Environmental Protection
    Agency announcing in 1973 a reduction of 60-65% in phased steps, and
    ultimately the removal of lead from all standard, consumer, automotive
    gasoline in the United States by 1986. Lead levels within the blood of
    Americans are reported to have dropped by up to 80% by the late

    He then turned his attention to lead in food where similar
    experimental deficiencies had masked the increase. In one study he
    showed an increase in lead levels from 0.3 to 1400 nanograms per gram
    in certain canned fish compared with fresh, whilst the official
    laboratory had reported an increase of 400 to 700. He compared the
    lead, barium and calcium levels in 1600 year-old Peruvian skeletons
    and showed a 700- to 1200-fold increase in lead levels in modern human
    bones with no comparable changes in the barium and calcium levels.

    In 1978 he was appointed to a NRC panel which accepted many of the
    increases and the need for reductions but argued the need for more
    research. His opinions were expressed in a 78-page minority report
    which argued that control measures should start immediately, including
    gasoline, food containers, paint, glazes and water distribution
    systems. Thirty years later, most of these have been accepted and
    implemented in the United States and many other parts of the world.
    Last edited by BusyLittleShop; 05-13-2019 at 09:10 PM.

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Busy Little Shop: This is a great post!!! ... especially for your second post. I learned a lot. Thanks!

    Ron "always learning" Blum

  5. #15

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Since we’re proving that we cannot make 100/100LL without the use of TEL, Is there another potential solution?

    So ... at Sun-N-Fun ... one of the major petroleum companies said that they are running tests with magnesium as the octane booster. Any thoughts on that?

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Pure magnesium, or some compound?
    Should be lighter than lead.

  8. #18

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Berson View Post
    Pure magnesium, or some compound?
    Should be lighter than lead.
    I can't image anything but pure magnesium, but weight is probably not a consideration. They also mentioned that they could somewhat control the aromatic content … but lower didn't seem to be part of their objective.

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