Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: FAR/AIM Regulation Questions - Experimental Aircraft

  1. #1

    FAR/AIM Regulation Questions - Experimental Aircraft

    EAA Members,


    At some point in the medium-term (1-2 years), I'm going to take the plunge and purchase my first aircraft, once they kick me out of my job and send me back to the states (currently overseas). I've been researching all of the requirements, and unfortunately have come accross some questions that I was hoping to get clarification on regarding the FAR/AIM and the ownership of expiremental -vs- certificated aircraft. I have spent numerous hours researching this, and it would appear that there are many different opinions on how to interpret some of these regulations.

    Part 91.319 of the FAR/AIM specifically states some of the following (I'm going to ask my questions inline):

    (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—
    ...
    (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
    -- I understand this to mean commercial only? (i.e. I would like for my kids to be able to learn to fly, some forums indicated that although you couldn't use an expiremental in a flight school per say, that you could otherwise have a CFI provide flight training in a personally owned expiremental aircraft). If there is a willing certified trainer to get into an amature built aircraft that he could charge for and provide all services required to meet FAA training requirements? *More on this later, as the FAR/AIM appears to answer this question, but has specific dates listed.

    (b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—
    (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
    (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.
    -- I'm to understand this means "Phase 1" of the testing (the initial 40 hours), and during this period the "area assigned" is so that it's easier for the wreckage to be located? Once this 40 hours is done, are there any restrictions preventing the purchase accross country of an expiremental? From what I understand, that once the aircraft has completed its "Phase 1", that it becomes basically the same as a certificated aircraft (minus some additonal notes specified below). There would be nothing wrong with purchasing an aircraft from NY if I lived in CA after each phase has been completed?

    (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
    --This one appears to be the most condemning argument against owning an experimental, but it's a bit confusing. I've personally seen expirimental aircraft fly over areas that I thought to be fairly populated (Kitfox & Avid's in Idaho near and around Boise, etc.) - What are these limitations really? The understanding I can take from this is that the aircraft is simply supposed to be equiped to be able to glide to a safe landing destiation should something horrendous occur and a forced landing is required without the risk of crashing into any towering-cumulous-concrete. It's safe to assume that expirimental aircraft cannot operate in any Class B airspace, does this extend to Class C also, or is this simply defined by the "yellow spots" in VFR sectionals (night lighting) that these aircraft shouldn't fly?

    ...

    (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and
    -- I have seen countless expiremental aircraft listed on sites like Barnstormers and Trade-A-Plane who all proudly show their instrument panels while gloating that they are IFR certified, to include every flavor imaginable (VOR/GPS/Localizer/etc.). Although I have seen some references to ELSA (Expiremental Light Sport) as having the ability to fly in instrument conditions, the regs clearly state that light sport aircraft are unable to do so. Based on this regulation alone, I am believing that the sellers of those aircraft have just wasted money equiping them with avionics they'll never be able to use?

    ...

    (e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to—
    ...
    (2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.
    -- Along with my previous question about hiring a CFI to provide potential training to my kids in my own aircraft. If a CFI can in fact be hired to fly in a personal aircraft per the regs, the expiremental must be younger than 2010 if this is the case?


    //============================

    Thanks for any information that can be shared. I do apologize for unloading on this forum, but I have honestly spent a considerable amount of time researching these questions, and have found answers on both sides of the fence (especially in the case of the "densely populated areas" regulation), as it appears there's no end to interpretation of these rules.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tehachapi, CA
    Posts
    219
    Quote Originally Posted by usslindstrom View Post
    (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
    -- I understand this to mean commercial only? (i.e. I would like for my kids to be able to learn to fly, some forums indicated that although you couldn't use an expiremental in a flight school per say, that you could otherwise have a CFI provide flight training in a personally owned expiremental aircraft). If there is a willing certified trainer to get into an amature built aircraft that he could charge for and provide all services required to meet FAA training requirements?
    Yes - you can train in an EAB aircraft - you just can't rent it out. I did my Instrument Training in my COZY MKIV, and many others have done training in EAB aircraft, from sport pilot to CFI, depending upon what type of aircraft, and assuming it meets the requirements of having dual controls. As you surmise, just no commercial usage. Buy your plane and get a CFI to teach you and your kids to fly. You can pay the instructor - you just can't pay for the plane.

    Quote Originally Posted by usslindstrom View Post
    (b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—
    (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
    (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.
    -- I'm to understand this means "Phase 1" of the testing (the initial 40 hours), and during this period the "area assigned" is so that it's easier for the wreckage to be located?
    Yes, this is referring to Phase I, in which you're SUPPOSED to test the plane to the limits of its operating envelope. No, the phase I test period has nothing to do with finding wreckage (I assume you were being humorous) but to limit flights to areas that are sparsely populated, so as not to endanger folks on the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by usslindstrom View Post
    Once this 40 hours is done, are there any restrictions preventing the purchase accross country of an expiremental? From what I understand, that once the aircraft has completed its "Phase 1", that it becomes basically the same as a certificated aircraft (minus some additonal notes specified below). There would be nothing wrong with purchasing an aircraft from NY if I lived in CA after each phase has been completed?
    Whether Phase I is complete or not, there are no restrictions on EAB aircraft being purchased and moved to anywhere. If the plane is still in Phase I, you'd have to get approval from the FSDO's in order to move it and finish Phase I in the new place, but that's pretty rare. If it's in Phase II, it can go anywhere. And can be put BACK into Phase I, as long as you follow the instructions in the Operating Limitations for THAT plane.

    Quote Originally Posted by usslindstrom View Post
    (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
    --This one appears to be the most condemning argument against owning an experimental, but it's a bit confusing. I've personally seen expirimental aircraft fly over areas that I thought to be fairly populated (Kitfox & Avid's in Idaho near and around Boise, etc.) - What are these limitations really?
    Since there's no definition anywhere of what "densely populated" or "congested" means, these limitations are "really" nonexistent. People fly their EAB aircraft anywhere that anyone flies any aircraft (legally). Don't worry about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by usslindstrom View Post
    It's safe to assume that expirimental aircraft cannot operate in any Class B airspace, does this extend to Class C also, or is this simply defined by the "yellow spots" in VFR sectionals (night lighting) that these aircraft shouldn't fly?
    It would NOT be safet to assume that EAB aircraft cannot operate in Class B airspace, because it's incorrect. There are no restrictions on the type of airspace into which EAB aircraft can fly, assuming that they're properly equipped to fly in that airspace. I fly in Class B airspace all the time, as well as all the others. Many fly above 18K in class A as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by usslindstrom View Post
    (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and
    -- I have seen countless expiremental aircraft listed on sites like Barnstormers and Trade-A-Plane who all proudly show their instrument panels while gloating that they are IFR certified, to include every flavor imaginable (VOR/GPS/Localizer/etc.). Although I have seen some references to ELSA (Expiremental Light Sport) as having the ability to fly in instrument conditions, the regs clearly state that light sport aircraft are unable to do so. Based on this regulation alone, I am believing that the sellers of those aircraft have just wasted money equiping them with avionics they'll never be able to use?
    No. In almost all cases, the Operating Limitations of the aircraft will say that the plane is restricted to operate day VFR only, UNLESS equipped per 91.205 for either night or IFR flight. So as long as you have the appropriate equipment, maintained per the regulations, you're legal for night and IFR. I fly IFR fairly regularly in my COZY MKIV.

    Quote Originally Posted by usslindstrom View Post
    (e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to—
    ...
    (2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.
    -- Along with my previous question about hiring a CFI to provide potential training to my kids in my own aircraft. If a CFI can in fact be hired to fly in a personal aircraft per the regs, the expiremental must be younger than 2010 if this is the case?
    If you are only paying a CFI to train you in your airplane, but not RENTING an EAB aircraft for flight training, then you don't care about this - the aircraft is not being used for compensation or hire.

    Things are not nearly as restrictive as you're sometimes thinking they might be. If someone disagrees with these interpretations of the rules, please have them point out the specific parts of the FAR's that I would be violating should I operate my plane as described. They won't be able to.

  3. #3
    Understood. Thank you VERY much for the all of this outstanding information. You've helped myself and others who would need to look for the same types of questions - more than you know.

    The FAA's rules always seem to leave some gaps. I remember specifically going through my instrument check ride and having the examiner attempt to get what the minimum weather was to allow for takeoff under instrument rules. Of course, we all know the direct answer on when an airport is authorized to be included in an IFR flight plan, that the weather must meet at least the minimum requirements to land at that airport. ( < 2000' ceilings, < 3 mi visibility requires an alternate) But to take off, there is no mention of minimums anywhere - so the official answer is that although it may not be the brightest decision in the world there's nothing legally preventing you from taking off in 0 visibility from any airport. It always struck me as odd, but it just fuels the idea of what I'm referring to on rules/regs. *And yes, you're correct that my crash radius comment was just a joke.

    Moving forward, it looks as though an experimental really wouldn't have any of the restrictions built up in my own mind. On your comment regarding moving aircraft around:
    If it's in Phase II, it can go anywhere. And can be put BACK into Phase I, as long as you follow the instructions in the Operating Limitations for THAT plane.
    Is this at the operator/owners request that an experimental be brought back into Phase I, or would this be something more on if a FSDO mandates it once the aircraft is relocated?
    Last edited by usslindstrom; 03-18-2019 at 10:19 PM.

  4. #4
    Dana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    927
    Marc gave good answers. I'll just add about the congested area thing, some older experimental operation limitations flatly prohibit operating over congested areas, some say no congested areas except for takeoff and landing, some say nothing at all (best), and the most recent version says, "Flight over a densely populated area or in a congested airway is authorized for the purpose of takeoff or landing, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to make a safe emergency landing in the event of a power failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground." If your aircraft has the less desirable old version, you can get them updated.

    Typically the owner puts the plane back in phase 1 for testing, for example after a "major change". I plan to do it with my Hatz when I change the propeller.

  5. #5
    Mel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    15
    One important thing to remember is that the operation of your aircraft is controlled by the operating limitations that were issued to THAT aircraft. Op lims have changed over the years. If you have older limitations that are more restrictive, you may have them amended and brought up to date by your local FSDO or a DAR.

  6. #6
    FlyingRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    NC26 (Catawba, NC)
    Posts
    2,627
    Nobody has ever explained what a "congested airway" is. The only thing I've seen that meets that definition is the Ripon to Fisk corridor and it wouldn't be congested if you removed all the experimentals from it.

    The renting it out for training is stupidity in the regs and the FAA interpretation thereof. Rental (even for flight instruction) is not "carrying passengers for hire in any other aspect of the regulations. In fact, in the case of 100-hour inspections, they specifically list both cases.

    I agree with Mark's interpretations. These days almost everybody gets oplims that are verbatim copies of the specimen ones in the inspector's handbook unless there's some overly compelling unusual feature.

    Note there is no official document called the "FAR/AIM." There are FARs and there is the AIM. They're not published on the same schedule. All those things that have a year and FAR/AIM together are some private publishers repackaging of the information (and likely out of date, though not usually in any meaningful way).
    Last edited by FlyingRon; 03-19-2019 at 02:54 PM.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tehachapi, CA
    Posts
    219
    Quote Originally Posted by usslindstrom View Post
    Is this at the operator/owners request that an experimental be brought back into Phase I, or would this be something more on if a FSDO mandates it once the aircraft is relocated?
    The Operating Limitations for the specific aircraft (which are a part of the Airworthiness Certificate, and must by in the plane at all times, usually also specified as being accessible to the pilot, as if you're going to whip them out and read them for some reason while you're flying) will specify what you need to do in the case of making a "major change" to the airplane as defined in 14 CFR Part 21.93(a). Current OL's (and most of them going back to the mid 90's - maybe earlier) will specify that if you make a "major change" to the airplane, THEN you must put it back into Phase I for testing, usually for a minimum of 5 hours. Some OL's will specify that you have to notify the cognizant FSDO, some will require that you get concurrence on the test area, and some will just say that you need to sign off the Phase I period after you're done.

    I'm currently flight testing a customer's Long-EZ that we modified to have a single lever EI and EFI system on an O-320. While 21.93 is absurdly vague about what counts as a "major change", and most folks just ignore stuff that isn't completely obvious (make wings 1/2 size, install PT-6 turboprop instead of O-200, etc.) we decided to take the conservative route and assume that this was a major change, although I could have argued otherwise.

    The OL's for this plane indicated that we needed to get concurrence from the FSDO (in our case, Van Nuys, CA) on the test area, so I called them up, found out who to send an email to, and sent one that described the change to the airplane, the test area I proposed, and waited a day for them to get back to me with an email saying, in effect, "Gee - that sounds good to us - go for it". We're now 2.8 hours into the 5 hour test period, which should be done next week.

    Not a big deal.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Clarklake, MI
    Posts
    2,461
    (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and[/B]
    Based on this regulation alone, I am believing that the sellers of those aircraft have just wasted money equiping them with avionics they'll never be able to use?
    Nah, people just like having that stuff. Private private pilot aeronautical experience requires 3 hours of flight training maneuvering solely by reference to instruments, so technically, that box could be checked with those airplanes. Also, could log instrument training/experience for other certificate/ratings in those planes.

    -- Along with my previous question about hiring a CFI to provide potential training to my kids in my own aircraft. If a CFI can in fact be hired to fly in a personal aircraft per the regs, the expiremental must be younger than 2010 if this is the case?


    I think you are applying the date from another rule not related to the type of training you want to do.

    A CFI can be paid to give instruction in your experimental airplane. Have to be sure the plane meets the "full dual control" requirements. A bigger snag might be finding an examiner that will conduct a practical test in an experimental airplane, if you plan on using it for that purpose. Some will, many won't the FAA definitely won't.

  9. #9
    Understood on all points. Thank you all for providing answers to everything.

    Any hesitation I had when looking at experimental aircraft is no longer an issue. Once I'm able to come back stateside, I'll end up on a shopping spree like no other.

    Thanks for the help. Great community here!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •