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Thread: Changes to OSH Arrivals procedures?

  1. #31
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    I don't agree Jeff. This year was indeed a distaster not because they needed two different approaches. The problems occurred when they lost a runway for some reason (mass arrival, accident, soggy adjacent taxiways) and that backed up all the traffic to the existing runway onto Ripon. Adding a seperate 9-27 from the 18-36 won't help and would furhter confused. I'm not sure what your proposal to change the Warbird approach would do either. There's not been any problem with that approach. The number of aircraft that can't maintain 90 are pretty few and far between. Usually it's people who should have no problem maintaining 90 but fail to do so. Occasionally you'll get a breezy or whatever that can't, but that's rare and a slow approach procedure might help.

    The major problem this year and has happened in the past, is the "RIPON-FISK IS FULL" procedure is a joke. The Rush lake and other "hold where you are" and then turn the pipe back on procedure is where the problem is. The problems have all been not that RIPON-FISK becomes saturated but that the runways themselves have become saturated backing up into FISK.

    I usually come and go out of the various approaches a dozen times during the show (my initial arrival is always before the NOTAM goes into effect). I've arrived IFR, RIPON, WARBIRD, through arrangement with the tower for a straight-in to 18. Haven't done the Prison arrival yet, but maybe next year.

  2. #32

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    Yeah, a slow approach and no radio grass runway is needed. A bunch of slow flyers like me just won't fly in at all as it is with no approach less than 90.
    More set up for GA not Sport Aviation, seems from my perspective.
    Last edited by Bill Berson; 11-12-2018 at 11:35 AM.

  3. #33
    L16 Pilot's Avatar
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    I agree, a grass runway would be nice. Radio: no problem I use a hand held which works just fine. I've flown in several times usually mid morning during the week and traffic is usually not a problem.
    If God had intended man to fly He would have given us more money!

  4. #34
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    There actually was a grass runway marked out south of where taxiway papa ends (it ends about 1000' from the end of the runway, just about where the glide slope antenna is). It was constructed because the "tail skid" crowd wanted it and it didn't want to land at Pioneer. I don't think they ever got any formal procedures for it and the concept seemed to die after a couple of years.

  5. #35

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    Not much use without a separate arrival procedure (like the Seaplanes base and Ultralight runway with no speed minimum and don't need a radio). For a separate arrival procedure the grass runway would need to be some distance away to the south in a rented farm field, or something.

    Only about 100 seaplanes use the lake, so not much relief there. The Ultralight/Lightsport runway isn't really that great for LightSport with just 1200 feet and no obstical free clear zones on both ends. So only a few choose that runway.
    Last edited by Bill Berson; 11-12-2018 at 02:23 PM.

  6. #36

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    This thread reinforces the frequent notion that AirVenture is sometimes a victim of its own success. I hope it never gets too big to remain able to grow. I do love volunteering every year.

  7. #37
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHICAGORANDY View Post
    This thread reinforces the frequent notion that AirVenture is sometimes a victim of its own success. I hope it never gets too big to remain able to grow. I do love volunteering every year.
    It's actually not "grown" much over the last decade. It's barely recovered from the peak. What's happened on the ground is a lot of loss of capacity due to taxiway configuration, the inane security fence and perimeter road, and the moving the crowd line back from taxiway papa by an airplane width. The EAA has a stated goal to not turn any planes away in 2020, which means unless the EAA condemns more private land, or someone whacks the FAA and the Oshkosh airport authority to stop making what land is available unusuable, that we're going to get even more creative in finding places to park people. We may get some space in vintage and custom by teeing them in like the north 40. We've already stuffed people in aisle end caps and pushed them back into places that hadn't previously been rows. They've added a tiny amount of space down at the south end in what used to be corn fields, but the surface there is still dicey and there are petty political power squabbles going on that aren't helping.

  8. #38
    Jeff Point's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingRon View Post
    I'm not sure what your proposal to change the Warbird approach would do either. There's not been any problem with that approach. The number of aircraft that can't maintain 90 are pretty few and far between. Usually it's people who should have no problem maintaining 90 but fail to do so.
    As I walk around in Vintage I see all kinds of planes that can't maintain 90 kts, and as at least one other person pointed out, more fail to attend because they feel they can't safely get in.

    As for the Warbirds arrival, while there have not been any problems specifically with the procedure, it does not appear to be the most efficient use of resources and that is my issue with it. Many folks use it for convenience when they could fly the Fisk arrival (high or low route) within their aircraft capabilities. High performance warbirds requiring overhead patterns are far more rare at Oshkosh than planes which can't maintain 90 kts.

    In any event, this is all just food for thought. We can either maintain status quo, or we can have discussions about making changes with an eye towards improving things. My ideas may not be the best solution. There does seem to be significant momentum at HQ behind making some changes, which I think is a good thing. Let's have a robust discussion about this and come up with a better way.
    Jeff Point
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  9. #39
    Jeff Point's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingRon View Post
    Haven't done the Prison arrival yet, but maybe next year.
    I did the prison arrival this year- and on a Breezy no less! So between us I think we have all the bases covered!

    Here's an example from EAA's past about what happened when the show outgrew itself. If you've never listened to the "Fantastic Friday" recording, check it out. This is what led to the procedure that we have today. The file is in post #6.

    http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?...ntastic-friday
    Jeff Point
    RV-6 and RLU-1 built & flying
    Tech Counselor, Flight Advisor & President, EAA Chapter 18
    Milwaukee, WI
    "It All Started Here!"

  10. #40

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    The whole point of having ATC at Fisk is so they can send you to the least crowded runway. If you could pick your own runway, you wouldn't choose as well because you wouldn't know what ATC knows. There's little benefit to choosing your runway yourself since you can't choose your parking spot. Even if you know where you will park, we need to make the best use of the most limited resource, which is available runways.

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