Rumor of Light Sport Weight Limit Change

[Bill Greenwood]

Frank, what I mean is that a restriction on a new Sport Pilot would be for 25 more hours before they could carry a passenger. Now a CFI or a licensed private pilot would not be a restricted passenger because they are qualified to fly the plane themselves, its just the same as dual for the sport pilot. But the sport pilot can't take a non pilot until they have the extra 25 hours. This is same as a new teenage driver, he can drive solo or with his licensed parent, but for 6 months he cant take another non licensed student.
A private pilot has done more training and passed a more extensive written and flight test than a sport pilot. Therefore a 25 hour, or some similar limit on the sport pilot makes more sense. The average person passing a private test may have over 60 hours, though I think that is high. If it would meaningfully add to safety to put a similar restriction on new private pilots it might be ok, but I think lees needed than a sport pilot. I don't know if sport pilots do the 3 cross country flights that private students do, if not then jumping into such flights with passengers is a big step. I don't think sport pilots do any instrument flight , nor night flight so once again less preparation for taking a passenger on trips. A sport pilot may be able to fly a Champ around the local area about as well as a private pilot but going to Sun N Fun is more involved.

[Frank Giger]

Bill, we're going to strenuously disagree here.

The statement that Private Pilots are fully qualified to take passengers the minute they pass their check ride and Sport Pilots aren't is a bit offensive, really.

The Sport Pilot syllabus matches the Private pilot all the way to the hood, where it stops. I don't know how being under the hood or flying at night improves daytime VFR flight skills. The cross country flights can be shorter than for the Private Pilot, but mine weren't.

A Sport Pilot is just as qualified to carry passengers when he gets his ticket as a Private Pilot. Full stop. There is no difference, and the stats bear it out.

The check ride, less the hood, is exactly the same for Sport Pilots as it is for Private Pilots.

[Bill Greenwood]

You are turning my post into something other than what I meant. if you are a sport pilot and well qualified, that's fine. But that's not my prime point, though how many hours on average does a new sport pilot have vs the 65 or so a private pilot has?

If you read my first post it is that the accident rate for new drivers who usually get their license at 16 is bad for the first 6 months to a year and improves markedly after the first year. And so some states restrict passenger carrying for new drivers for six months. That's what I am saying, that a similar restriction on new pilots for 25 hours of so may be a big help to safety.
How many cross country fligths did you do as a sport student and how far? If I recall I did at least 3 and a long one of 300 miles with 3 airports for private. Did you do vor tracking? Is the written test the same, with 100 or 200 questions?
If you find it "offensive" that's a shame, but my emphasis it to improve safe flying not to make a new pilot feel good. I want to encourage new pilots , ie the sport rating , but a small restriction for a few hours is not too much to ask.
What "stats" do you have on safety of sport vs private, I haven't seem them. I have seen Nall reports on higher accident rate for new pilots.

[Dana]

I have heard (don't have statistics to back it up, perhaps Ron W will chime in?) that a pilot with a brand new certificate is actually safer than one with 100-200 hours, due to the "now I know it all" syndrome.

Passenger restrictions for new young drivers makes sense. But we already have such restrictions on new pilots as they do their pre checkride solos... and unlike new drivers, minimum hours before the checkride.

[Frank Giger]

Bill, I have fine regard for you, so understand I'm disagreeing with your position, not you.

Aircraft are not cars, and new pilots are not new drivers. Equating the two is a false line of thought.

First, it's three cross country flights, the same as for Private Pilots. The required distances are shorter for Sport Pilots, as the aircraft are slower. All are done in daytime VFR. Distance itself is actually immaterial from the safety standpoint, as the critical tasks where the bulk of accidents happen - on takeoff and landing - are exactly the same. If one engine-outs five miles from an airport or fifty miles from the airport while in transit it's exactly the same problem. By the logic you're putting forward a short hop to close airfield is safer than a flight across the state, and we both know that it's not true. The only difference is the amount of time spent straight and level.

Second, the Sport Pilot already has limitations put on him that a newly minted automobile driver doesn't. There is no Daytime Only in Good Weather restriction for a driver's license. When a 16 year old gets a driver's license he's blessed off to drive at night, in rain, snow, on ice, etc., nor (at least in my state) is there any restriction on the number of passengers he can have in the vehicle. The Sport Pilot is always restricted to just one passenger.

The inherent restrictions on Sport Pilots are much more stringent than those of someone with a driver's license.

Navigation by VOR is not required for Sport Pilots, nor is it on the written test. It falls under instruments. Sport Pilots, flying in Daytime VFR below the clouds are expected to be able to navigate by compass and dead reckoning. This makes senese because, hey, it's daytime VFR below the clouds. The ground must be in view at all times. Use of aids such as the VOR (if the plane is equipped) or GPS is allowed on the cross country flights and the check ride, though.

As to the written test, yes, it's shorter. There are no questions about controlled airspace, night flying, instrument flight, etc., as there are no need for them for a Sport Pilot since he is not allowed to fly under those conditions in the first place. A Sport Pilot must get an additional rating for controlled airspace - why would it be on the written test?

I obtained my Sport Pilot certificate at 26 hours, six hours over the minimum. I had demonstrated to my instructor and an evaluator that I was proficient in all phases of flight in light, simple aircraft in daytime VFR conditions. There were already a pile of restrictions placed on my based on my type of certificate to begin with. If I wasn't safe to carry a single passenger then they shouldn't have given me the ticket in the first place.

[rwanttaja]

I have heard (don't have statistics to back it up, perhaps Ron W will chime in?) that a pilot with a brand new certificate is actually safer than one with 100-200 hours, due to the "now I know it all" syndrome.

I've heard that ~1,000 hours is the danger point. Right about where I'm at. :-)

Here's a plot of Pilot Total Time vs. percentage of accidents for Experimental Amateur-Built. This is 50-hour increments; I wouldn't read any significance into the individual "spikes":

0-500 hours is obviously more of a danger, though it doesn't seem to taper off until one gets to ~2,000 hours or so. This would be of more use if we had figures how many EAB pilots fell into the particular hour categories.

Passenger restrictions for new young drivers makes sense. But we already have such restrictions on new pilots as they do their pre checkride solos... and unlike new drivers, minimum hours before the checkride.

The problem I have with it is, if a new Sport Pilot (or Private Pilot) cannot carry passengers, then what's the point of getting the ticket at all? It's a milestone of no significance. There's usually financial sacrifice in getting one's license, and it's kind of traditional to reward family members who helped. Mind you, my parents seemed curiously reluctant to receive their reward......

Ron "Uhhh...thanks, but not today" Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

I think cross country flight is a step up in possible difficulty, and may require a more competent pilot. Lets say you want to go to EAA, if you fly from Californina or Texas to Osh, you have to evaluate weather and alternatives, along the way, even having to stop overnight. And going into other airports, with possible approach or atc towers.And pilotage like dead reckoning is good, but to go xc and have no vor or other radio nav aids is to give a lot away. I use all three for my fights. Now if really are going to fly totally below the clouds, not even above a scattered layer or one with fair weather cumulus, for an entire day or even the 2nd day, you are likely to have a very bumpy ride, especially out over the desert in the summer heat. By the way my I A flies his Champ from Colo to Osh.
I don't know fully what sport pilot is, but I flew with one brand new sport pilot, just passed his test that morning and he wasn't very good , really I was surprised he passed. He didn't know how to find the wind at our non tower airport, he was trying to find it on a gps or technro gadget on the panel as we passed about 1/8 mile over the big bright orange wind sock. He was a nice guy to take me for a ride in the Gobosh, but I would not have let my kids fly with him, he needed another few hours to get fully there.

[Joda]

First, it's three cross country flights, the same as for Private Pilots.

Frank,

Just so we don't lead people down a wrong path, I want to make a correction to your above statement. The aeronautical experience required for a sport pilot certificate is found in 14 CFR 61.313. Regarding cross-country flights, the reg contains the following requirements:

"(i) 2 hours of cross-country flight training". Note that it doesn't mention the number of flights. It only says 2 hours of cross-country flight training (aka "dual instruction).

"(iii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance, with a full-stop landing at a minimum of two points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations."

The reg thus specifically states that ONE solo cross-country is all that is required. So there is no requirement for 3 cross-country flights. Per these regs, you could meet the requirement with just two cross-country flights, one dual and one solo. Of course most students will do more than just one dual and one solo cross-country, but it would be legal to do it with just two.

[rwanttaja]

I think cross country flight is a step up in possible difficulty, and may require a more competent pilot. Lets say you want to go to EAA, if you fly from Californina or Texas to Osh, you have to evaluate weather and alternatives, along the way, even having to stop overnight. And going into other airports, with possible approach or atc towers.And pilotage like dead reckoning is good, but to go xc and have no vor or other radio nav aids is to give a lot away. I use all three for my fights. Now if really are going to fly totally below the clouds, not even above a scattered layer or one with fair weather cumulus, for an entire day or even the 2nd day, you are likely to have a very bumpy ride, especially out over the desert in the summer heat. By the way my I A flies his Champ from Colo to Osh.
I don't know fully what sport pilot is, but I flew with one brand new sport pilot, just passed his test that morning and he wasn't very good , really I was surprised he passed. He didn't know how to find the wind at our non tower airport, he was trying to find it on a gps or technro gadget on the panel as we passed about 1/8 mile over the big bright orange wind sock. He was a nice guy to take me for a ride in the Gobosh, but I would not have let my kids fly with him, he needed another few hours to get fully there.

I don't really disagree with you, Bill, but the kind of problems you mention don't get cured with ten additional student hours, or even twenty. Our instructors had the right of it, back when we first got our tickets and they described it as "a license to learn." Most of us can look back at our student days, but realize that we really learned the MOST when we left the instructional phase, and were attempting to use an airplane like it was meant to be used.

At this point, motivation comes into play. The military has it easier; recently-graduated pilots can be assigned to deliver high explosive and small bits of lead to foreign lands, with the Articles of War or the UCMJ being used to motivate those who might balk.

It's different with civilian pilots. Few students are motivated by the prospect of receiving a small plastic card for their wallets...their motivation is based on what they would then get to DO with an airplane. It might be taking advantage of the cross-country capability, it might be the ego inflation of taking friends and family flying.

But they have to have SOMETHING to look forward to. Delaying the gratification hurts the completion rate, and the rate of student starts. Certainly, you can't send the fledglings out wearing nothing but pinfeathers and dreams, but you DO have to turn them loose at some point. Life in the air will teach them more lessons than we ever will.

The military does have one advantage: Instructors can wash out the hopeless. Doesn't happen much in the civilian world. Heck, remember, half the pilots out there are below average.... :-)

Ron "Spring chickens...takatakatakataka..." Wanttaja

[Frank Giger]

Yep, thanks for correcting me on cross country flights! My instructor "gave" me three. If one is going to fly solo, might as well throw in a cross country or two in there.

Cross country flight planning is the same for Sport Pilots and Private Pilots, Bill....

And yes, Sport Pilots are always below the clouds. The ground must always be in sight. And yes, that makes for bumpy flights!

As to your experience with a Sport Pilot, Bill, remember - the guy that graduates last in his class at Medical School is still called Doctor. And I'd say that he's either enamored with gadgetry or had a poor instructor. I had one that routinely put a manila folder over the Garmin whizbang panel on the CTLS I trained in, saying "eyes up and out, eyes up and out."

On windsocks, I had a pilot friend (commercial, dual, helicopter rated, etc.) comment to me the last time I was at the airport that he never looked at the windsock until he got to know me (I live by it), but now he does.