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Thread: Non flying solo flight training via a Penguin

  1. #21
    cluttonfred's Avatar
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    Here's an idea, a non-flying plane on gimbal so that you can get a feel for the controls while sitting on the ground. These days you could easily see using an electric motor and rechargeable batteries for power, maybe put a guard on the prop for to keep the lawyers at bay.

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  2. #22

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    Maybe the flight school should have a cheaper simulator so the student can sit there for five hours of rudder peddle practicing up and down the runway only without flight before moving on to actual flight.
    My brother had numerous dual lessons in our Chief, but just didn't get the hang of steering a taildragger. He wasn't that interested and gave up on flying

  3. #23
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    Perhaps one that makes a raucous noise in the headset if the student doesn't put the proper wind inputs while taxiing.

  4. #24

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    I just discovered this thread and we have been discussing the possibility of doing a Penguin as a youth build. It would also be a great recruiting tool for the chapter.

    Some of the possibilities, concerns, etc. are:

    1. Configuration- All Penguins we have seen photos of are tractors. Perhaps a pusher would be safer.
    2. It would be even safer if the prop had a cage like airboats use.
    3. There's concern that no amount of ground school would be equel to having an on board instructor. Therefor, how about a two place with the back seat on the C. G.?
    4. It would definitely not be capable of flight in any form. Not even short crow hops.
    5. Configuration again. If it was a pusher, use a three tube empennage system.
    6. From a cost standpoint electric is probably out as it would cost several times as much as using an industrial engine. That said electric would be cleaner and much quieter.
    7. For solo "flight" a remote (RC components) kill system is necessary.
    8. Folding or removable wings.
    9. Use a motorcycle front fork & tire for the wheel.
    10. Use wing tip wheels to reduce ground looping forces.
    11. Could be wood as the historical ones are, tube and fabric (a bit fragile) or aluminum. All would teach skills needed to build a real aircraft.
    12. The recruiting value for potential youth aviation candidates and adult EAA members would be tremendous.
    13. How would a chapter get insurance coverage for such an activity? If licensed pilots were used in a two place version, would the Young Eagles program cover it? If the Penguin weighed less than 254 lbs qualifying as an ultralight fit into the Young Eagles program?

    Any thoughts on this?

    Vince Homer
    EAA 292

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    I just discovered this thread and we have been discussing the possibility of doing a Penguin as a youth build. It would also be a great recruiting tool for the chapter.

    Some of the possibilities, concerns, etc. are:

    1. Configuration- All Penguins we have seen photos of are tractors. Perhaps a pusher would be safer.
    2. It would be even safer if the prop had a cage like airboats use.
    3. There's concern that no amount of ground school would be equel to having an on board instructor. Therefor, how about a two place with the back seat on the C. G.?
    4. It would definitely not be capable of flight in any form. Not even short crow hops.
    5. Configuration again. If it was a pusher, use a three tube empennage system.
    6. From a cost standpoint electric is probably out as it would cost several times as much as using an industrial engine. That said electric would be cleaner and much quieter.
    7. For solo "flight" a remote (RC components) kill system is necessary.
    8. Folding or removable wings.
    9. Use a motorcycle front fork & tire for the wheel.
    10. Use wing tip wheels to reduce ground looping forces.
    11. Could be wood as the historical ones are, tube and fabric (a bit fragile) or aluminum. All would teach skills needed to build a real aircraft.
    12. The recruiting value for potential youth aviation candidates and adult EAA members would be tremendous.
    13. How would a chapter get insurance coverage for such an activity? If licensed pilots were used in a two place version, would the Young Eagles program cover it? If the Penguin weighed less than 254 lbs qualifying as an ultralight fit into the Young Eagles program?

    Any thoughts on this?

    Vince Homer
    EAA 292

    Vince,

    I started this list several months ago and have had little positive response. My proposal does not conform to many of your concerns/requirements but I would be interested in continuing discussions as I do believe there are several benefits to the proposal and it would satisfy your requirements. email cfig1467368@yahoo.com for contact info.

  6. #26
    cluttonfred's Avatar
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    In these days of liability and lawsuits, I think an actual Penguin trainer would be a disaster waiting to happen. On the other hand, something like an adult-size toy plane on a gimbal with an electric motor and propeller up front that would give a little of the sensation of aerodynamic control could be a lot of fun. The old Link Trainers were actually quite complex electromechanical contraptions, but something more like the Paris rooftop one in my previous post would be quite doable.
    *******
    Matthew Long, Editor
    cluttonfred.info
    A site for builders, owners and fans of Eric Clutton's FRED
    and other safe, simple, affordable homebuilt aircraft

  7. #27

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    Sad to say, but you're correct. It would be a lawyer's field day. That's why we are checking to see if such an activity could be done under the insurance umbrella of the Young Eagles program.

    Vince Homer
    vhhomer@hotmail.com

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    Sad to say, but you're correct. It would be a lawyer's field day. That's why we are checking to see if such an activity could be done under the insurance umbrella of the Young Eagles program.

    Vince Homer
    vhhomer@hotmail.com
    Any reply from EAA staff?

  9. #29

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    No Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by jedi View Post
    Any reply from EAA staff?
    It's been all quiet on the EAA Front.

    We had tried to compare it to the chapter owning an ATV and would a participant in the Youth Aviation program be covered riding it off road. It's a stretch, but we had to start somewhere and we did propose a two place Penguin with an adult pilot on board.

    Vince Homer

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    I just discovered this thread and we have been discussing the possibility of doing a Penguin as a youth build. It would also be a great recruiting tool for the chapter.

    Some of the possibilities, concerns, etc. are:

    1. Configuration- All Penguins we have seen photos of are tractors. Perhaps a pusher would be safer.
    2. It would be even safer if the prop had a cage like airboats use.
    3. There's concern that no amount of ground school would be equel to having an on board instructor. Therefor, how about a two place with the back seat on the C. G.?
    4. It would definitely not be capable of flight in any form. Not even short crow hops.
    5. Configuration again. If it was a pusher, use a three tube empennage system.
    6. From a cost standpoint electric is probably out as it would cost several times as much as using an industrial engine. That said electric would be cleaner and much quieter.
    7. For solo "flight" a remote (RC components) kill system is necessary.
    8. Folding or removable wings.
    9. Use a motorcycle front fork & tire for the wheel.
    10. Use wing tip wheels to reduce ground looping forces.
    11. Could be wood as the historical ones are, tube and fabric (a bit fragile) or aluminum. All would teach skills needed to build a real aircraft.
    12. The recruiting value for potential youth aviation candidates and adult EAA members would be tremendous.
    13. How would a chapter get insurance coverage for such an activity? If licensed pilots were used in a two place version, would the Young Eagles program cover it? If the Penguin weighed less than 254 lbs qualifying as an ultralight fit into the Young Eagles program?

    Any thoughts on this?

    Vince Homer
    EAA 292
    To Vince and Jedi - I am new to this Forum Thread, but believe I have something to offer. The American GEM (Ground Effect Machine) is a Kolb Firefly modified for youth aviation training. If you read Soaring magazine, there is a full article in the September 2019 issue about our program. We are trying to replicate the Eastern European and Russian programs where youth as young as NINE are actually airborne SOLO. Here is a link to the video. https://youtu.be/FNWdq5eGhcI

    We elected to eliminate any motor / propeller / fan/ as that was one more safety factor issue. We have done initial hopping - adult pilot - with a golf cart tow vehicle, but this did require a hard surface and - as stated in the article - we knew we needed more wing to get the lift-off speed down into the 20'ish mph range.

    Rather than answer the 13 questions above directly, I will comment on a few of them.
    #4 - as we are staying in Ground Effect - we are not "flying" but we are aviating!
    #6 - agreed - we really looked at electric hard - but the $$$ are way too much -
    #7 - as the "power" is coming from a ground tow line and the instructor controls the power - once daylight shows under the wheels, chop the power (golf cart in a reverse tow system or powered loop as in Europe) and gravity works again!
    #8 - VERY important! And our GEM does exactly that
    #12 - agreed, but we have learned a LOT in the last year about today's adolescent generation - WAY too glued to the screens. CAP kids however are really great
    #13 - EAA Young Eagles leadership thinks as long as we do Plane-on-a-Post and ground tow line operations, and as the American GEM is NOT AN AIRPLANE (FAA defined it as GEM) then probably EAA Chapter or Chapters could own one. - Also ultralight dealers thing this could be the legal trainer for UL pilots before first flights.

    Go to our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Cupertino-A...5194713505090/ and see what we have been up to!!

    We really need some specific help - so if interested I can send you much more detail.

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