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Thread: Chrome Moly 4130 Motor Mounts - Prefab Parts?

  1. #61

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    Aaron:

    In the real world outside of the USA, certification and licensing is not only required, but mandatory in just about every aviation, construction, petroleum and automotive profession I can think of. In fact, in the mechanical trades once you attain journeyman status, you can challenge any other related mechanical trade examination without having to undergo another apprenticeship. In addition, if you attain a score over 80% you automatically get 'RED Seal' approval and your certification is valid in every province and territory. You don't have to apply for provincial status examination every time you move. As for Non Destructive Testing our certification meets ISO 9000 certification and is valid in every country in the world that recognizes ISO. Why do I know this - it is because I have all those certificates.

    Not like American Society of Non Destructive Testing which is not recognized outside of the company that issued it unless it is level 3 - but even that is being questioned because it is ASNT certifying their own ASNT members - not like ours, which is an separate government agency.

    The first line in your statement above makes sense by the fact that you probably don't have any professional certification - you might have taken a materials science course in college - for all I know.
    Yes, I am making that assumption based on the fact you have not mentioned anything about certification other than a vague reference to some welding, materials and NDT knowledge.
    There is also your demonstrated lack of knowledge about basic welding process, procedures, codes and specification - you know - all those things journeymen have to know and demonstrate every day.
    So for you - ignorance really is bliss.
    Have another blissful day.

  2. #62
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nixrox View Post
    In the real world outside of the USA, certification and licensing is not only required, but mandatory in just about every aviation, construction, petroleum and automotive profession I can think of.
    Well...I think we have finally arrived at the crux of this discussion. It appears the USA is just plain inferior to the rest of the world, especially our good friends north of our borders. Perhaps someday we in the USA will be able to achieve the technological edge and skills that the rest of the world enjoys......and join the real world.

    One more thought--I rarely attach much credibility to posts from individuals who don't sign their posts with their real name or have their name in their public profile.
    Last edited by Sam Buchanan; 10-11-2018 at 04:58 PM.
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  3. #63

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    Let's take some of the heat out of the thread:

    Nixrox, while I understand you're trying to promote best practices in welding, here in the USA that's all they are when it comes to Ultralights and Experimental Aircraft - recommended best practices.

    No certification, rating, or anything else is required when constructing an Experimental aircraft, as they are by nature amateur built. Indeed, there isn't an Experimental aircraft flying in the USA with an airworthiness certificate. Not a single one. All of them are judged to be in a condition for flight, no more, no less....and that is made by the builder. The FAA simply acknowledges that they're airplanes with no judgement on their safety.

    For ultralights, there isn't even that. The builder builds it and takes it into the air, no inspection or even a pilot's certificate required.

    Now, then, we get to the line between allowed and prudent.

    It is certainly allowed for the builder - regardless of prior experience or training - to weld up any portion of their aircraft as they desire.
    It is also certainly prudent for the builder to either accept help and supervision when it comes to welding or even pass that task on to someone else if they are inexperienced.

    Fortunately, there is this big ol' organization full of people who build airplanes (or have a keen interest in it) where one can go for help, find a mentor, and ensure they're on the right track and staying safe.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

  4. #64

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    Aircraft Welding


    I have been an Aircraft Mechanic and then a Non Destructive Inspector for more than 50 years. My guiding objective has been and always will be – SAVING LIVES.





    So keeping this goal in mind, my career has been focussed on the detection of defects and the removal of those defects, before they become failures. Failures in aircraft usually means dead pilots, passengers, people on the ground and the destruction of aircraft.


    Imagine my surprise, when reading a blog in the USA, Experimental Aircraft Association forum, were amateur aircraft builders are discussing different techniques of Tungsten Inert Gas (TIG) welding of 4130 steel tubes – and there is not one word about welder training, certification, weld procedures or quality assurance inspection of their completed welds.


    Then I find out that 3 pilots were killed and 18 aircraft crashes have occured since 1996 with FAULTY WELDS being listed as the main probable cause of the crash.


    HOW and better yet WHY has this folly been allowed to continue?


    It has always been my experience in the aircraft industry, if we find a defect that was the root cause of an aircraft crash, we do everything in our power to remove that defect from every other similar registered aircraft, before there is another person killed, or aircraft destroyed.


    In this case, I believe the FAA and the EAA (as well as my own Canadian - RAA), have dropped the ball and allowed 17 more aircraft crashes with 3 deaths and neither organization has done anything to mitigate the totally PREVENTABLE root cause – weld defects.


    I firmly believe that WELDING is one of the most difficult to master of all the skilled trades.


    With proper welder training, welder supervision, weld procedures and design engineering, pre-weld testing and quality assurance inspection after completion - these deaths and crashes might not have happened.


    It has always been impossible to guarantee 100% defect free products – we are human we are not infallible – but we do have the ability to reduce the potential death and destruction to a small fraction of what has occured.


    On a scale of the most difficult and restrictive welding processes:
    1. Nuclear powered submarines
    2. Nuclear powered electricity generation
    3. Aircraft
    4. Everything else


    It is somewhat different for Non Destructive Testing inspectors in that absolutely NO DEFECTS are allowed in the first three catagories and the fourth is goverened by ASME and other welding codes for allowable defect sizes and locations.


    In my experience – the perfect weld is one I can’t even see on the x-ray film. It is exactly the same thickness and density as the parent material on either side and there are no defect indications.


    However no inspection method is 100% perfect - for example X-RAY.


    If I do not place the focal spot of my x-ray tube at exactly 90 degrees to a small tight crack – if I am off by as little as 10 degrees, I will not be able to detect that crack. So we try shooting x-rays at several angles and followup with a surface detection method like ultrasonics, or liquid dye penetrant, or magnetictic particle, or eddycurrent.


    My point is – we can and should be doing more to reduce the number of preventable defects in ALL aircraft welds – anything less is totally unacceptable.


    So I am going to do my best to raise awareness of this issue - first with the FAA and EAA , as well as Transport Canada Airworthiness safety and RAA.


    At the same time, I am going to include aircraft insurance underwriters, financial institutions and finally last but not least the news media.


    If I am able to prevent one human death - it will have been worth my effort.

  5. #65

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    Sam Buchanan - if the shoe fits - it is about time you recognized the problem.

    I'll will give you just one aircraft related example out of thousands that I have seen over the years. Back about 25 years ago an Hawiian Airlines Boeing 737 became a convertible at 10,000 feet when 20 feet of the upper fuselage ripped off. Several people died, but the pilots managed to land the aircraft without further losses. The root cause - undetected fuselage cracks in one of the lap seams. Boeing had issued a mandatory eddy current inspection and the airline did comply. BUT the way they were allowed to comply was unbelievable. They bought an eddy current machine and the manufacturer provided two hours of training to one of their inspectors. The inspector really had no idea what he was doing and should never have been allowed to conduct that inspection.

    In Canada - that never would have happened. An eddy current inspector must successfully complete a one week course, 3 months of practical field experience under the direct supervision of a level 2 supervisor and then a set of government exams to gain a level one certificate. Then the inspector must complete another set of 3 week training programs, plus 9 more months of practical experience under the direct supervision of a level 2 inspector and then two more written government exams as well as two days of practical tests were they demonstrate their ability to detect defects before they would be considered qualified to inspect those fuselage lap seams.

    Aircraft x-ray certification is ten times more difficult and very expensive - up to more than $2000.00 just for examination and course fees.

    I rest my case.

  6. #66

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    There is 11 or more Non-destructive Testing methods. The most common method (80%) is visual.
    The manufacturer selects the appropriate NDT method. (AC 43.13-1B)

  7. #67
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nixrox View Post

    In Canada - that never would have happened.
    Mr. nixrox (for some reason I doubt that is your actual name....) you are correct. Canada definitely has the superior system of inspection. I just don't know how to explain the thousands of experimental aircraft that fly safely every year in the unregulated, anarchic USA. I still haven't figured out how the multitudes of USA-made experimental components, kits and finished aircraft that are imported into Canada are allowed to populate your airspace. Somebody needs to do sumthin'.....

    I rest my case.
    Ok.
    Last edited by Sam Buchanan; 10-13-2018 at 08:40 PM.
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  8. #68
    Aaron Novak's Avatar
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    In the experimental world, I worry more about guys using car engines, but that is the spirit of the category right?

  9. #69

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    "3 pilots were killed and 18 aircraft crashes have occured since 1996"

    Three fatalities in 22 yrs? There outta be a law!

  10. #70

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    If you all are so proud of your welding - where is the x-ray proof?

    At the very least, you should be required to complete a set of similar type weld tests in front of a certified independent QA specialist. The test samples would be inspected visually first and if that is successful, then they get radiographed. With the criteria established that NO DEFECTS are allowed, the x-ray evidence will certainly weed out the poor and mediocre welders. The home builder should not be allowed to weld anything on an aircraft until he successfully completes the practical demonstration of his skills. When the successful candidate completes his aircraft welding, a certified weld inspector has to inspect and sign off on the air frame - before the home builder encloses it.

    The above outlined solution, when compared to what is being done now - I believe aircraft crashes due to faulty welding should be an extremely rare occurrence.

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