Fisk arrival on Sunday

[davevath]

I watched Sunday's landings for over 2 hours while waiting for some friends to land.
What I seen was ATC landing only 1 plane at a time, all long.
btw my freinds had to divert to fon du lac. Low on fuel after waiting 2 hours.

[obmaha]

True. But 36/18 went virtually unused. For whatever reason, they were severely throttling traffic at Fisk. Well beyond what was necessary.

Fasle. There were many mass arrivals on Sunday which led to 36 being shut down.

Bob- Air traffic controller

[obmaha]

As an air traffic controller that was at Oshkosh couple things that I will say.

1. Most of you did an amazing job. But every year there is a decent amount who either don't read the notam or are not paying attention to it.

2. There is no guarantee you will make it into Oshkosh. There is a reason the NOTAM says over and over to plan to divert. When you have 4,000 plus aircraft trying to get into a place in 6 hours that is not going to happen. Simply impossible. For example the arrival rate at Ohare on a perfect day at best is 200 a/c an hour.

3. Yelling at the controllers and the other pilots over the freq. ISN'T HELPING ANYTHING. If you have circled 27 times and are getting low on fuel probably time to divert not time to yell about it.

4. I have heard a lot of pilots talk about they want change or a way to make this never happen again. Unless you can change the weather or want a lottery or VFR reservation (TRUST ME YOU DONT) system it is all on the pilots until they get to fisk.

5. Last and not least the controllers are there for your safety. They are not there to play favorites or ruin your day. They are trying to make the event as safe as possible.

[keen9]

Glad to see a controller on here. I agree with all of your points, but that does not mean ATC cannot do better (and has done better in the past). Can you answer some questions:

1) The NOTAM clearly states "ATC controllers at Fisk will advise on 120.7 when holding is necessary". Was this ever done? For the whole time I circled (mostly in the Green Lake Hold), all I heard was all traffic between Ripon and Fisk turn left, go back to Ripon".

2) Where in the NOTAM does it discuss a procedure for leaving the tracks and going to Ripon? I do not see that action, but ATC gave that direction repeatedly creating a dangerous situation by adding an additional path of traffic converging on Ripon. Once these aircraft have been given an ATC direction that is inconsistent with the NOTAM what should they have done?

3) Was the Rush Lake hold even used Sunday? Didn't hear it.

4) Why was the ATIS not updated to indicate that all aircraft should be going to the Green Lake Hold vs entering at Ripon? Sure all aircraft should be doing that via observation, but it would sure help if ATIS was encouraging the correct behavior.

[Kyle Boatright]

Fasle. There were many mass arrivals on Sunday which led to 36 being shut down.

Bob- Air traffic controller

The Cherokees arrived on Saturday. I'm not sure if any of the other groups did or not, but if they didn't, I can think of the following groups which would have arrived on Sunday:

Bonanzas
Cessnas
Cirri
Mooneys
There might have been one or two others (including the unplanned for mass arrival of AT-6's)

I'm guessing each of those took 30 minutes of runway time.

So, there was a lot of available capacity on 18/36, but that capacity wasn't used very effectively for aircraft coming in from Fisk.

[FlyingRon]

The Cirri were always scheduled for Sunday. The others were on Saturday and it was pretty severe IFR early. A bunch of them arrived late. I think the Bo's started to arrive gave up and then came back again.

[Low Pass]

.....

So, there was a lot of available capacity on 18/36, but that capacity wasn't used very effectively for aircraft coming in from Fisk.

It was very obvious from the 2-3 hours I sat alongside 18/36 Sunday that there long pauses of use of the runway. Much less utilized than in previous years. I went to sit there so I could watch landings, not see nothing for 10-20 minutes at a time, then 20-30 planes arrive very widely and inconsistently spaced. As a few of my buddies actually got into the airport and related the stories of the insanity on the Fisk arrival, it really seemed bizarre to see 18/36 L & R so underutilized.

[PeterEAA]

Hi folks ! I was trying to get in on Sunday for over 2 hours and 45 minutes ! Finally I gave up and diverted to KATW Appleton. What I saw were airplanes not !!! flying 90 knots, not !!! flying at the right altitude of 1800 feet ( they passed us below and above simultaneously ), flying not !!! over the railroadtracks and suddenly slowing down to 60 knots, lowering their flaps !! I saw airplanes flying side by side, above each other heading to fisk, cutting in the spacing of other airplanes from below and above ... and ... and ... It was really dangerous some times and the Controllers did an excellent job, but how to handle this chaotic arrivals dear pilots ????!!!! Everybody who flew this way has to ask himself if this is the way to handle the fisk arrival ................ ?? Shame on you !!!!!!! I talked to a tower controller because of sunday arrivals, he told me that they are going to rethink their procedures ! Can you imagine what does that mean ?! If we go on in this rude way flying into KOSH they probably will restrict the arrivals in some way ! That is the last thing the majority of all pilots want to see......... So please !!!! first follow the procedures and then talk about other factors ! This makes it save for everyone. Peter Burmeister - GERMANY - 10th time OSHKOSH participant

[mc20]

The issue Sunday was not that pilots did not follow the NOTAM. That was a symptom of the real problem.

There were too many airplanes trying to arrive in the same airspace.

It wasn’t possible for every pilot to follow the NOTAM as there simply wasn’t enough room in the sky. Even if planes had been kept far, far away and arrived at a pace at which the NOTAM could have been flown exactly, it's still likely it would have taken you three hours to fly from Appleton. (I fully recognize that an embarrassingly large number of pilots wouldn’t follow the NOTAM no matter the conditions- that's beyond frustrating to me. The guy who landed 36 Sunday afternoon while two streams of departures were leaving on 18 makes me want to go postal.)

At least you made it in after 3 hours. This guy flew over five hours after departing from Appleton, then returned, and flew another hour before finally arriving.

[PeterEAA]

The issue Sunday was not that pilots did not follow the NOTAM. That was a symptom of the real problem. There were too many airplanes trying to arrive in the same airspace. It wasn’t possible for every pilot to follow the NOTAM as there simply wasn’t enough room in the sky. Even if planes had been kept far, far away and arrived at a pace at which the NOTAM could have been flown exactly, it's still likely it would have taken you three hours to fly from Appleton. (I fully recognize that an embarrassingly large number of pilots wouldn’t follow the NOTAM no matter the conditions- that's beyond frustrating to me. The guy who landed 36 Sunday afternoon while two streams of departures were leaving on 18 makes me want to go postal.) At least you made it in after 3 hours. This guy flew over five hours after departing from Appleton, then returned, and flew another hour before finally arriving.

You are absolutly right, the real problem was that there had been too much airplanes ! But what I really wanted to address - even too much airplanes does not justify not following the NOTAM ! I always tried to get in following the NOTAM ( 90 Knots, 1800 feet etc. ) and now one !!! was forced to fly low level or above lined up airplanes to the fisk arrival or cutting in spacings other airplanes - its quite easy - have enought fuel - and if it does not work following the NOTAM break out and try it again - its so easy !!! Everything else is really dangerous ! and the real thing is - if you feel there are so much airplanes - divert to another airport ! Peter