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Thread: Stall in a turn

  1. #31

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    I would suggest you all watch the video "Turn Smart" by ag and airshow pilot Wayne Handley. www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pGuoc11lxY Turns out the reason one wing or the other stalls first in a turn is KNOWN, and Wayne demonstrates in his video. I usually stay out of these opinion/myth discussions because most people have their minds made up and don't want to be confused by the facts. However, in this case, it involves the lack of understanding of the need to KEEP THE BALL IN THE CENTER. Every flight instructor I've flown with (and the Airplane Flying Handbook) say it is because the airplane is more efficient when coordinated (which is true), but the real reason is because when ball is not centered, the airplane will roll when it is stalled - and often roll briskly (guess how you do a snap roll). If the ball is to the left, the airplane will roll right. If the ball is to the right, the airplane will roll left. Ball centered, the nose will drop essentially straight ahead (unless the airplane has rigging issues - but usually those cause minor wing drops compared to the ball being out of the middle).

    Lack of understanding of the need to keep the ball centered is a major component of loss of control accidents. Obviously pilots aren't being taught correctly - and even more amazing to me, the ball isn't even a required instrument for VFR flight (which I guess indicates the FAA doesn't understand it's importance either). KEEP THE BALL IN THE CENTER!!!!

    Warren

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by asport22 View Post
    Obviously pilots aren't being taught correctly - and even more amazing to me, the ball isn't even a required instrument for VFR flight (which I guess indicates the FAA doesn't understand it's importance either). KEEP THE BALL IN THE CENTER!!!!

    Warren
    I agree with the first part about pilots lacking adequate training. However, I agree with the FAA's position on slip/skid indicator. A slip/skid indicator is a required instrument for IFR flight. Further, I think Chapter 3 of the Airplane Flying Handbook is pretty good. (Chapter 4 is another story) It specifies how pilots should be trained - i.e. how to "feel" and see what the airplane is doing. The FAA handbook rightly emphasize that pilots need to finely tune these skills. As stated in this thread and the LOC thread, the instrument panel is not needed during VFR flight. Remember there is lag in what the instruments indicate. Pilots should know what is happening before looking at the instruments. Adequate thraining can correct this and prevent most LOC accidents.

  3. #33

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    You don't need a ball for VFR flight. If you pay attention, your butt will tell you everything you need to know.

    Best of luck,

    Wes

  4. #34
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WLIU View Post
    You don't need a ball for VFR flight.
    Well, for taildraggers.....

    [Comment deleted]

    [second comment deleted]

    [Third, even nastier comment deleted]

    Ron "Biting my tongue" Wanttaja

  5. #35

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    I've been hearing that "calibrated butt" line as long as I've been flying, and while I do believe that skilled pilots in VFR can fly coordinated without looking at the ball, I freely admit that I cannot. I also highly suspect, but have not yet proven, that it's not really the "butt" that the skilled pilots are using as a sensor. If it was the butt, no ball would be needed for IFR, either. (And before you argue with that, think carefully about what both the butt and ball are sensing. Hint - it's exactly the same thing.) I believe skilled pilots actually sense skids and slips visually, by noticing subtle differences in how the nose moves as the airplane rolls into a turn, and maybe they can even visually detect the angular misalignment of the longitudinal axis of the aircraft with the horizon after the bank is established. I wanted to test that with my instrument instructor by having her close her eyes and see if she could reliably detect whether the aircraft was skidding or slipping, but we never got around to it.

    So, I still believe many base-to-final and departure spins would be prevented if pilots would be more careful about keeping the ball centered. Watch the video.

    Warren

  6. #36

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    I hear that there is a great Oshkosh forum presentation on Thursday, 2:30PM, Forum stage 6. It is an open forum; come voice your opinion (respectfully).

    Yes, the aircraft will "typically" roll (after) a stall to the side opposite the ball. There is more wing drag on that side of the airplane at that moment.

    In the case of the turning stall (and if coordinated), the airplane will roll toward the "up" wing side (opposite the original direction of turn). Why? … because there is some down aileron to keep the airplane in the turn (it's fighting the lateral stability of the airplane … which wants to level the wings).
    ..
    If you come to the forum, you'll learn that the vast majority of fatal stall/spin/spiral accidents are on departure (takeoff/go-around … not base to final), in day VMC conditions, and with light winds.

    Ron "30+ years in Flight Test, Chief Engineer and Aerodynamicist … and still learning" Blum

  7. #37
    lnuss's Avatar
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    I believe skilled pilots actually sense skids and slips visually, by noticing subtle differences in how the nose moves as the airplane rolls into a turn, and maybe they can even visually detect the angular misalignment of the longitudinal axis of the aircraft with the horizon after the bank is established.
    Then how come I can be in the back seat of a Cub (so I can't even see the panel), looking (literally) in ANY direction, including over my shoulder to spot traffic, and still sense it -- can even do it with my eyes closed? It really IS the butt -- I really DO know what part of my body is talking to me.

    Don't get me wrong, visual is important to many things in VFR flight, especially checking slight deviations from what you want in pitch and roll. and learning to see those differences when looking in directions other than straight ahead, but you DO have to be relaxed in the seat, not tense, to feel that slip/skid. So have your CFI fly, gently adding rudder one way (with wings level), then the other, while you sit very relaxed in your seat, with hands and feet off the controls. This is just to see if you can detect something.

    Larry N.

  8. #38

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    Once upon a time I flew with an elderly CFI to learn how to fly tailwheel airplanes. Sabby's big message was to relax into the seat and feel the airplane. He told jokes over the intercom and would whack you on the back of the head with a sectional in a tandem airplane. His point was that VFR flying is much more like surfing than a video game. Feel the wind and the airplane. Too many pilots fly around crooked and wonder why their IAS is below book speeds (excess drag) and why the airplane jerks around when they land (sidewards drift). Your airplane will talk to you if you listen. But you have to relax and listen.

    And in the Pitts, in level flight in the traffic pattern, you absolutely can not see anything in front of you. Your eyes are not keeping you straight and coordinated, your butt is. And it does not take very long to become "expert" if you try. Cover up everything but the airspeed indicator and the altimeter, relax into the seat and listen to the airplane.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    Last edited by WLIU; 07-20-2018 at 02:56 PM.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by asport22 View Post
    I also highly suspect, but have not yet proven, that it's not really the "butt" that the skilled pilots are using as a sensor. If it was the butt, no ball would be needed for IFR, either. (And before you argue with that, think carefully about what both the butt and ball are sensing. Hint - it's exactly the same thing.) I believe skilled pilots actually sense skids and slips visually, by noticing subtle differences in how the nose moves as the airplane rolls into a turn
    I do think the highly skilled pilots feel the lack of coordination, and certainly the flight instructors I've worked with the most sensed it this way exclusively. I'm not going to say I'm highly skilled, but it's what I try to do. If I'm doing a turn or roll, maybe while flying an acro sequence, I'm looking out the window at my wing tip, at a cloud or at a ground reference, so I need to feel the coordination instead of looking at the ball. But the ground referencing isn't what's tipping me off. In fact, it's a bad thing to use the ground as a reference for coordinated turns when you've got strong winds, it's going to mess you up. I remember an instructor catching me doing that on a windy day.

  10. #40

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    In my beginning flying days I think I remember climbing to 5000 or about 4500 agl to do spins. I spent a whole hour plus session one time with one of my old instructors just spinning till he got too queasy from it. I haven't been pilot in command for over 20 years now, just some good times back then. All my spins in a good old cessna 150, its a battle to keep everything in the correct condition spinning in them and coming out of the spin not over speeding and or pulling too many G's. I think there are too many pilots that shouldn't be flying if unusual attitudes are scary for them.

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