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Thread: Loss of Control - inadvertant spins

  1. #11

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    "A spin will result from a slip or a skid, in other words any yawed flight." ​Not entirely correct. Prior to entering the skid, the airplane could be yawed or slipping. It also could also be in coordinated flight. No matter, it must be skidding to spin.

    When you have time, I can explain it to you. Or you could get a competent instructor, take an airplane to sufficient altitude and try it. Never skid the airplane and it won't spin.

  2. #12
    robert l's Avatar
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    About a year after I got my PPL in a Cessna 150, I the opportunity to fly front seat in a Piper J 5. The WW II pilot in the back seat said, do you always fly without using the rudder ?! Wow, thanks for the lesson! I still think about that whenever I fly. On the subject of skidding, wasn't it the Red Baron that would make a 180 degree flat skidding turn in a dog fight ?
    Bob

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by WLIU View Post
    I fall into the camp that observes that too many pilots rely exclusively on what they see on the panel and not enough what their senses are telling them. ...
    Tape a sheet of paper over the panel glass and listen to what your butt is telling you.

    Wes
    I am also in that camp. If the airplane is slipping, it can do a spin entry (called an over the top spin entry). But it will not spin until the airplane is in a skid. No skid, no spin. Your eyes and butt will tell you when the airplane is yawed, slipping, or skidding. No need to look at the turn coordinator or the artificial horizon when the real horizon is out there!

  4. #14

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    I think some older planes or homebuilts will fall into a spin while coordinated if a gust stalls one wing first. The first wing that stalls has more drag and less lift and that wing drops and now that falling wing has more angle of attack. So it goes into aggressive autorotation if the pilot doesn't catch it instantly. The primary issue is angle of attack.

  5. #15
    cub builder's Avatar
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    Here's a good stall video for you experts to analyze. VIDEO

    The pilot was flying a coordinated, although extremely high AOA approach in a STOL Competition. When he attempted to roll level with ailerons to correct for a gust, the additional drag of the down aileron triggered that wing to stall.

    No doubt many will disagree with this statement, so I'll put it out here for discussion. I was taught 40+ years ago when I was learning slow taildraggers: "In normal flight, use the ailerons to roll the plane level. In high angle of attack situations, use the rudder to control the roll of the plane as the aircraft will respond quicker and hard aileron inputs can trigger a stall as is demonstrated in the video." Before criticizing the statement, I would suggest trying it... at altitude.

    I have had aircraft do a spin entry from coordinated flight in an accelerated stall. That comes from the wings being less than identical in either shape, drag or rigging. In an accelerated stall, usually one wing will give up first causing an immediate hard roll, and the plane will spin without any additional input to intervene.

  6. #16
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    Must be some microgust I've not encountered. Usually gusts are don't affect one wing separately from the other.

    It's easier to spin out of a skid because you've got both the yawing of the aircraft and the up aileron working against you. In a slip, they're trying to counteract each other, but its still possible to spin.

  7. #17

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    As a pilot one should have a almost 2nd sense about approaching a stall, coordinated or not. Its easy to say , "if you dont yaw you dont spin. " But that misses two points, first any pilot, no matter how good is going to have some uncoordinated flight, that is when the ball is not fully centered. Now you dont want to get way out of center when also low and slow, but most planes are forgiving of flight with the ball maybe half or one mark out. 2nd and most important, a plane wont spin if it doesn't stall . And a stall , not just a spin is also bad when low and slow, unless on touchdown. And to me, a sense of having a reserve above stall is important, even vital.
    There are many situations, other than just normal cruise where you may need to have extra margin above stall. Thats when doing acro, especially overhead maneuvers like loops , hard turns with gs and steep climbs, hard turns in fly bys. any situation where you are using some of your lift margin above stall. Stall is not just a matter of airspeed, but also a matter of gs. If you are pulling gs, you can stall the plane most any way. If you are about to stall, reducing pulling is more direct than adding power. If you find yourself a little slow in a loop, easing the pull may avoid a stall. And if you do stall, letting go is the first response, just stop pulling to break the stall. You may also add power.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 07-10-2018 at 11:37 AM.

  8. #18
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    Touching down doesn't involve stalling an aircraft. It's near impossible to stall most aircraft with the mains on (or just above) the runway.
    No longer generating enough lift for (level) flight does not equate to a stall.

  9. #19

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    In turbulence, and flying at Va we allow the airplane to stall on the big hits to keep from over stressing it. Many times during those big hits, and with the stall warning chirping, the ball swings wildly. Stalled and uncoordinated. And in the pattern when gusty and well below Va (1.3 - 1.5 Vso), this is not uncommon either. As the OP stated, too many experienced pilots have lost control in the pattern (base>final) for unexplained reasons. I've always wondered if this could be a factor.

  10. #20

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    Can stall a plane in a slip and it won't spin if there is no yaw. Can hold the nose right on a point in a slip and enter a full stall. Some planes like a Citabria will float down like they are under a parachute in that condition.

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