Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 27

Thread: When is an Ultra Light not and Can it be a LSA

  1. #11
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    KDCU
    Posts
    420
    My point is that I'm not aware of any regulatory obstacles to obtaining an experimental airworthiness certificate for a flying ultralight IF all paperwork is in order.

    I built a Legal Eagle and the build was documented on my website, in a detailed log......and a highly regarded magazine. Since the LE is a plans-built aircraft, and documented as amateur-built, and I could sign notarized affidavits stating same, there are no differences in this case of presenting a flying UL from when I presented my fresh non-UL Fokker replica for inspection. The fact the LE was already flying is a non-factor because it was an ultralight with no prior inspection required.

    We need to resist the urge to create defacto regulation where it doesn't exist.
    Last edited by Sam Buchanan; 05-31-2018 at 03:08 PM.
    Sam Buchanan
    The RV Journal RV-6 build log
    Fokker D.VII semi-replica build log
    YouTube Channel

  2. #12

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    930
    Install a single seat, 5 gallon tank and fly it under FAR 103.

  3. #13
    FlyingRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    NC26 (Catawba, NC)
    Posts
    2,005
    The major legal obstacle is that many ultralights don't meet the requirements for an E-AB aircraft. First, someone has to have built it for educational or recreational purposes. The thing must be instrumented in accordance with 91.205, etc. (yes I know that says for standard airworthiness but you can bet you'd have difficulty if you don't meet at least the day vfr requirements). Your plans-built planes are one thing, someone's fat QuickSilver two seater is another.

    The issue is taking some factory-built aircraft that doesn't meet the 103 limits and doing something with it, NOW. The grace period for moving these things to LSA is past and there's no legal way forward.

  4. #14
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    KDCU
    Posts
    420
    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingRon View Post

    The issue is taking some factory-built aircraft that doesn't meet the 103 limits and doing something with it, NOW. The grace period for moving these things to LSA is past and there's no legal way forward.
    Agree. In that case we are not talking about meeting FARs in regard to the aircraft being a legal UL. My corner of the discussion is in regard to a previously flown single-seat, five-gallon UL being presented for an experimental airworthiness inspection. It sounds like this is not the case with the aircraft referenced by the original poster--I just wanted to address the possibility of mis-guided info being circulated that isn't supported by FARs.

    I had a very close encounter with this situation many years ago with my plans-built MiniMax. I flew it for a couple of seasons as a UL then decided to move it to EAB for insurance purposes and being able to log flight time. I even went as far as registering it and receiving an N-number but a fellow pilot rekitted the plane before the inspection could occur. That was the end of that endeavor.....
    Last edited by Sam Buchanan; 05-31-2018 at 03:16 PM.
    Sam Buchanan
    The RV Journal RV-6 build log
    Fokker D.VII semi-replica build log
    YouTube Channel

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    66
    Let me toss this out. Granted I am not a pilot and just learning, but for most of my 74 years I have been gainfully employed in some pretty techy fields thank you. So what IF the air craft in my question had been flown for a number of years as a Ultra Light or whatever but clearly qualified as a Light Sport Air Craft why can it not be inspected and certified air worthy and assigned a N number? Just because a deadline had passed, the air craft has flown, had logged time on the books. There are NO proceedures within the FAA to re-inspect on a case by case basis?
    When I was in the USAF on the flight line I saw a lot of repairs. I was an air craft electrician, mid 1960's Cessna 310s to B52s.

    What happens to a air craft after damage say from hard landing is it assigned to the junk pile never to fly again?
    Last edited by wmgeorge; 05-31-2018 at 06:03 PM.

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    930
    You need an Airworthiness Application. It lists all options. Pick the category you think will work and study what is required.
    The FAA will likely not approve any option other than Exhibition, is my guess.
    Exhibition has operational limitations.

    A damaged aircraft can be repaired by following repair procedures because it already has an airworthiness certificate. If you buy something without an Airworthiness Certificate, it might not be possible to get one. Do the research. It isn't simple.
    Last edited by Bill Berson; 05-31-2018 at 06:31 PM.

  7. #17
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    KDCU
    Posts
    420
    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Let me toss this out. Granted I am not a pilot and just learning, but for most of my 74 years I have been gainfully employed in some pretty techy fields thank you. So what IF the air craft in my question had been flown for a number of years as a Ultra Light or whatever but clearly qualified as a Light Sport Air Craft why can it not be inspected and certified air worthy and assigned a N number? Just because a deadline had passed, the air craft has flown, had logged time on the books. There are NO proceedures within the FAA to re-inspect on a case by case basis?
    When I was in the USAF on the flight line I saw a lot of repairs. I was an air craft electrician, mid 1960's Cessna 310s to B52s.

    What happens to a air craft after damage say from hard landing is it assigned to the junk pile never to fly again?
    The answers to your questions have been covered in the last few posts but apparently you missed them.

    The hypothetical aircraft you mentioned was never an "aircraft" in the eyes of the FAA because it didn't have an airworthiness certificate. That means there is no valid "log book" regardless of whether or not it has flown. It can't be "re-inspected" because it was never inspected in the first place.

    What may be confusing to you is ultralights never undergo an FAA inspection, they don't have any FAA paperwork.....they don't exist as far as FAA registration is concerned. The only time the FAA will get involved in UL matters is if there is reckless operation of the "aerial vehicle" or an accident with serious injuries. UL accidents will most likely be examined by local law enforcement since the accident didn't involve an "aircraft".

    The problem with presenting your aircraft for certification is the necessity of proving it was at least 51% amateur-built. This would be impossible if no good documentation exists (why would a UL builder go to such trouble....it ain't an aircraft!).

    Hope this helps. I realize this can be confounding to someone with no aviation background. Your question about a damaged aircraft was answered in Bill's post above.
    Last edited by Sam Buchanan; 05-31-2018 at 06:50 PM.
    Sam Buchanan
    The RV Journal RV-6 build log
    Fokker D.VII semi-replica build log
    YouTube Channel

  8. #18

    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    66
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Berson View Post
    You need an Airworthiness Application. It lists all options. Pick the category you think will work and study what is required.
    The FAA will likely not approve any option other than Exhibition, is my guess.
    Exhibition has operational limitations.

    A damaged aircraft can be repaired by following repair procedures because it already has an airworthiness certificate. If you buy something without an Airworthiness Certificate, it might not be possible to get one. Do the research. It isn't simple.
    So instead of spending time on some internet forum I really need to do my research on the FAA site and communicate with them for informed valid answers.

  9. #19

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    930
    You should ask specific questions on the forum, instead of "why can't I do this" again and again.
    We gave you some options to consider, but we feel it can't be done legally without build documentation.

    Of course you can call the FAA. I prefer to research the laws myself. Many times the folks at the FAA are young and can't answer these rare questions. If you are an EAA member you can call EAA for better advice, in my opinion. You can attend a forum at Airventure about registering aircraft.
    Know the facts before you buy.
    I bought an unfinished kit. I will likely be able to get an airworthiness certificate with documentation I must provide. But I don't expect it to be simple.
    Last edited by Bill Berson; 06-01-2018 at 09:17 AM.

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    66
    Yes of course I am a EAA member, I am not one of those people who expect something for nothing and I do support groups and organizations financially. I will try to structure my future questions in a more acceptable and understandable manner.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •