Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 23

Thread: Landing - or, rather, traffic - patterns....

  1. #11
    DaleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    KMLE
    Posts
    442
    Quote Originally Posted by waltermitty View Post
    I try to get out of the way of pilots flying for a purpose.
    Yep. I figure, more time flying is more time flying. And as long as Frank or Ron don't show up, I've probably got about the lowest cost per hour of anyone in the pattern. So, if taking a lap or two around the lake, or diverting for a few more minutes of sightseeing, or extending my downwind or whatever lets the pattern empty out a little, I'm fine with that.

    Ron: Yeah. Hover practice over the runway would prompt me to say something, for sure. Plenty of soybean fields around here.
    Last edited by DaleB; 03-26-2018 at 03:15 PM.
    Measure twice, cut once...
    scratch head, shrug, shim to fit.

  2. #12
    rwanttaja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    2,012
    Quote Originally Posted by waltermitty View Post
    I'm a weekend pilot who flies just about every day weather permits. I try to get out of the way of pilots flying for a purpose.
    I'm happy to cede room to someone flying for a purpose. But to watch plane after plane having to go around because a helicopter instructor is hovering over the active runway telling his student, "This is the collective, this is the cyclic, and....." Surely there's somewhere ELSE they can do that.

    Ron Wanttaja

  3. #13

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    2,048
    Since the helicopter instructor doesn't want to listen to reason, seems like a conversation with the airport manager might be better. And if that's no relief, a more pointed one with the FDSO about unsafe operations being conducted. I'd use words like "gross negligence."
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

  4. #14
    gbrasch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    496
    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    They don't at my field. Same pattern as fixed wing, except slightly closer-in than many) and slightly lower. In addition:

    1. The instructors in the helicopters turn off their radios when the frequency is busy, as they claim it is too distracting. Their management has defended this practice, in writing, to the airport board.

    2. The instructors have claimed, on the radio, that they have priority over "weekend pilots" (their term) and thus can perform hover instruction on the sole runway for minutes at a time. "Our students are paying thousands of dollars for instruction......"

    Don't get me started about helicopters.....

    Ron "Fox Two" Wanttaja
    Absolutely absurd, contrary to any helicopter training I ever gave, and like Bill said, violates regs. I would notch it up to the FAA.
    Glenn Brasch
    Tucson, Arizona
    2013 RV-9A / 1952 Piper Tri-Pacer
    Medevac helicopter pilot (Ret)
    EAA member since 1980
    Owner, "Airport Courtesy Cars" website.
    www.airportcourtesycars.com
    Volunteer Mentor www.SoAZTeenAviation.org

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    FA40
    Posts
    730
    Quote Originally Posted by gbrasch View Post
    Absolutely absurd, contrary to any helicopter training I ever gave, and like Bill said, violates regs. I would notch it up to the FAA.
    Concur. But then, I've only been a helicopter instructor since 1975, so maybe when I get more experience I'll use the runway for hover practice instead of the corner of the field away from all the planes

    Back to the thread title topic about landing patterns, how about the January SA article by Steve Krog and the March letters to the editor it generated! I laughed until I cried. Such a seemingly simple topic but SO hard to write or teach about because it involves so much basic knowledge that people haven't internalized. USA non-towered airport patterns alone are worth an hour.

    Name:  pattern size.jpg
Views: 182
Size:  74.9 KBName:  pattern tracks.jpg
Views: 183
Size:  51.3 KB

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    927
    Usually, a busy helicopter school or ultralight school will request the airport owner to set up a separate landing area. And get FAA approval and enter the details in the published airport info. At Birchwood (Anchorage) the helicopters and ultralights and ski-planes used the east taxiway for landing.

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    204
    I’m posting just to be informed about the originally posted question. Will a circular approach reduce stall/spin accidents in the pattern?

    My personal answer would be “No” because the same pilots that misjudge a rectangular pattern will also misjudge a circle one. BTW, I have two T-38 experiences where an overhead break, circle to land, could have ended as stats as the pilot lined up on the wrong parallel runway both times.

    In addition, the majority of fatal stall/spin accidents are on takeoff and go-around - not landing. A circular approach will not greatly affect this statistic.

  8. #18

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    16
    I think there is a need for the square pattern. Nothing wrong with a mixing in a 180 from down wind either. As long as you don't use it to beat the guy ahead of you! When you've mastered the standard pattern requests like "straight to threshold", "keep it in close", "keep up the speed" and "land on the green dot" all test your abilities to make a good landing even more rewarding.

    Stalls and spins on final happen when the pilot overshoots the runway and tries to get back on center line with a steep turn and maybe a little rudder. Good maneuvers for aerobatics but not at pattern speed and altitude. Using a 180 from downwind (or an overhead approach) is a good way to practice making the center line with a continuous descending turn. Just takes more skill than square pattern.

  9. #19
    rwanttaja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    2,012
    Airport just had an all-hands meeting where a number of topics were discussed. The upshot:

    - The Airport and Airport Traffic Pattern operations information sheet will be updated to show acceptable locations for rotorcraft hover practice, appropriate landmark identification with azimuth and distance information will be added for entering the pattern and emphasis added to the current airport regulations to exit the runway as soon as practical.

    - Rotorcraft will give way or land to taxiing airplanes while in the holding areas adjacent to the taxiway.

    - Rotorcraft will refrain from hovering near any airport structures (fuel tanks, office or hangars)

    - Rotorcraft will enter and exit the runway at appropriate turnoffs and avoid overflight of the infield areas between the runway and taxiways

    Assuming the fling-wing operators comply, this will make things a lot calmer. The problem is, we have only one helicopter training operation on-field, but are the closest uncontrolled field to THREE towered airports. We get a lot of visitors.

    Ron Wanttaja

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,224
    Sounds like life is getting better.

    If I may offer some advice from personal experience, do not have the helicopters hover in locations near the ends of the runways. Once upon a time I flew a lot at a field that had a helicopter school. They liked to hover off to the side of the runway end. As you have likely experienced, the students, and many instructors, have no idea what their rotorwash does to the world around them. I got used to starting to flare for landing, as I went by the R22, quickly banking into the crosswind that the R22 was creating, banking back to level as I exited that crosswind, and touching down. That and having them suddenly appear beside you on final as they practiced 180 overhead autorotations to a spot next to the paved runway, tended to make life interesting.

    Best of luck,

    Wes

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •