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Thread: Pilot and air frame logging question.

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin View Post
    If they have one, put it in. If they don't, leave it out. I understand what you're saying - that you sometimes cannot comply, intrinsically, with ALL of the listed requirements. But that doesn't imply (to me) that if you can't comply with all of them, you're exempt from all of them.
    "exempt" and "not in compliance" do not have the same meaning. Omitting a regulatory requirement would be "not in compliance"

    I doubt the FAA intended a rule to be applicable if by default it can force one to be "not in compliance"

    You comply with the ones that are possible to comply with given the rules of EAB aircraft, which allow your mom's dog to do the maintenance on the plane (and she probably doesn't have an FAA certificate # to list [the mom or the dog]).
    Mom's dog would not be able to comply with any of the mutually inclusive requirements. So in that example, we just completely ignore sections (i), (ii), and (iii) and leave the log blank! Got it!! The dog does all my EAB maintenance! That's why there are no entries!

    I've seen Chief Counsel Opinions result in unintended consequences, not in a good way. Sometimes it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. Not aware of a single violation being handed out over EAB maintenance records.

  2. #22
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    I was kind of lacadasical about my logbook until I had the aircraft accident. Between the FAA and the insurance adjusters, I needed to total up my hours (both on the plane and me) and even provide the "last page" of the respective log books. Amusingly, while I had logged flights, I'd not computed "totals" since i went for my instrument rating over ten years ago.

    Amusingly, when I totalled it up, I found I had just over 1000 hours. I backed up and found the flight that I busted 1000 on. It was flying with Snowbird 11 at Oshkosh.

  3. #23

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    Insurance companies can get persnickety over logbooks, especially when a large loss payout is forthcoming. Nonetheless, I’ve seen them pay for a homebuilt loss despite having sketchy logs. They really only cared about the ‘conditional’ inspection.

  4. #24

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    Marty, don't get a ruling; this isn't broke, and so doesn't need fixing. But it would be helpful to get guidance.

    Much like the guidance on best practices in building, which take the standards and regulations on Certified aircraft construction, I think we can apply the same with a large part of the logging.

    We know, for example, that Condition Inspections are to be placed in the air frame logbook, with the precise magic words provided for us. I think that all the maintenance required to get it to that point needing to be logged sort of flows from that. Certainly it was relevant to include the wing spars and landing gear leg I replaced - as well as replacing the crankshaft and propellor on the engine - after I flipped my little Bebe into the air frame and engine logs.

    I'll admit that not all maintenance goes into it, as a lot of it is super minor. Replacing tapes on the wires past the swags or a tire tube isn't worth the ink to write it down, IMHO.

    I log flights into my air frame logbook because I've seen a lot of old logbooks from way back that had the same. I was just curious to see if A) other people did that (not many) and B) it's required (I'm getting that flights aren't).

    I do think this would be a good article for Sport Aviation, that's for sure.

    On insurance, as a low time Sport Pilot with an experimental still in test phase, the companies I asked quotes for were....interesting in their responses. One never, ever responded; I guess they thought it was a prank. Another would only give me quotes with hull and passenger insurance included, though I only asked for liability, and it was not encouraging; however, I did feel like I was sixteen all over again, but with Lamborghini instead of a '70 International Scout.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

  5. #25
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    We know, for example, that Condition Inspections are to be placed in the air frame logbook,

    I know nothing of the sort. There's no requirement for a "logbook" let alone one separate for the airframe versus the engine or any other part. The requirement is just for it to be recorded in the "aircraft maintenance records." An airframe logbook is just a convenience for the owner.

  6. #26

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    It's customary to log each flight for a glider because it doesn't have a tach hour meter. Airplanes with recording tach hour meters usually only log the total at each annual or condition inspection.
    Now motorgliders accrue both engine time and glider time. My experience is most Motorglider owners don't log aircraft time.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Giger View Post
    Marty, don't get a ruling; this isn't broke, and so doesn't need fixing. But it would be helpful to get guidance..
    Guidance is how we got here! lol
    I don’t plan to poke any dragons. Don’t care who is right, more concerned with what’s right.
    EAB maint is essentially an unregulated activity. If authorized persons, content, form and disposition of records was regulated it would be included in the OL, along with the appropriate guidance like that for condition inspection.

  8. #28

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    For a different perspective, in Canada, each aircraft has a technical log in which maintenance is recorded, and a journey log in which all flight time and the names of the pilot and passengers are recorded. My Pitts S-2A spent 25 years of its life in Canadian registration. The logs that came with my S-2A are an interesting read.

    This is one area where the US rules are more permissive.

    Best of luck,

    Wes

  9. #29

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    Ah, Marty, as an old soldier I'm more interesting in what's best rather than what's "right" when it comes to regulations and their application.

    For example, the builder's log is pretty much whatever the builder makes it. It's just to show the FAA man that one is builder and that some sort of standard was held. It can be broad descriptions of text only, such as "built wings."

    I took a piece of advice from my EAA brothers when they said to use it as more than just a document in ways that are probably well beyond what they meant. My dead simple straightforward tube and gusset held together with pop rivets fabric covered scale just-over-ultralight aircraft has a good three inches of builder's log with pictures and loads of text detailing how I did stuff, why I did it the way I did, and the problems I had trying it a different way.

    It proved to be a godsend when I had to do extensive repairs, though. More than once I was staring at a bit of the wing I was putting back together and thought "what the heck?" and dug into the log to where I did that task and went "aha! So that's how I did it!"

    Granted I came to aviation from a place of near total ignorance (I became a pilot because I wanted to build my own airplane, and built my airplane because I wanted to be a pilot - circular logic is my friend!), so I naturally bought the EAA Air Frame, Engine, and Prop logbooks and put stuff in them that I thought was relevant. Not really sure about that Propeller book - it seems unnecessary for a simple wooden prop, to be honest. But I bought one because, hey, they sell them and I have a propeller.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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