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Thread: Cessna 170B IFR

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by martymayes View Post
    A TSO is required when the reg says item must meet TSO 12345, as appropriate. Otherwise, not required.

    It’s not legal to fly IFR with portable nav gear.
    Thanks for affirmation on when a TSO is required, Marty. As to portables?

    Question One. Is an installed, TSOd VOR/ILS/LOC navigation receiver required by regulation for IFR operation?


    Not this regulation:


    §91.205(a) General...no person may operate … unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified ... and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.
    (d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
    (2)Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.


    And not this regulation:

    §91.171 VORequipment check for IFR operations.

    (a)(2) Has been operationally checked within the preceding 30 days, and was found to be within the limits of the permissible indicated bearing error...

    The Instrument Flying Handbook covers traditional navigation systems beginning on page 9-3. I can’t find a requirement for installed TSOd VOR/ILS/LOC equipment. The Aeronautical Information Manual covers VOR in Paragraph 1-1-3, ILS/LOC in 1-1-9, but I can’t find a requirement for installed TSOd VOR/ILS/LOC equipment there either.


    So a VOR/ILS/LOC used for IFR must receive the transmissions needed for the route of flight from takeoff to landing and must have a current ops check. Nothing about being installed or TSOd. If anybody knows an FAA manual, handbook, or regulation that requires an installed TSOd navigation receiver for VOR/ILS/LOC please post that reference?


    Question Two, is an installed TSOd GPS receiver required by regulation for IFR operation?


    FAA-H-8083-15B Instrument Flying Handbook:
    Page9-26: GPS equipment ... under IFR must meet ... Technical Standard Order (TSO) C-129 ...; meet the airworthiness installation requirements; be “approved”for that type of IFR operation; and be operated in accordance with the applicable POH/AFM or flight manual supplement. An updatable GPS database … is required when operating under IFR. Equipment approved in accordance with TSO C-115a... and hand-held GPS systems do not meet the requirements ... and are not authorized for IFR ... or as a principal instrument flight reference.


    Aeronautical Information Manual:
    Para1−2−3.2. b. ... When installed in accordance with appropriate airworthiness installation requirements... 1. An RNAV system with TSO−C129/ −C145/−C146 equipment, installed in accordance with AC 20−138...or AC 20−130A...and authorized for instrument flight rules (IFR) en route and terminal operations...


    So an IFR GPS is required to be TSOd, installed, and approved. But. Manuals and Handbooks aren’t regulations. So does anybody know what regulations drive these requirements?

    I'm confident somebody knows the regulation reference , but it's not me.
    Last edited by Mike M; 12-22-2017 at 06:46 PM.

  2. #12
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    91.205 ***IS*** the regulatory justification. The FAA states via AC's and the TSO documents what they consider an airworthy installation of a "suitable" navigation equipment is.

    They've always held that any sort of area navigation for IFR (from the old rho-theta RNAV to LORAN to GPS) has to be so approved.

    As for the gyros, yes you could put a glass panel in a 170 or electric gyros or an electric or engine driven vacuum pump, but you need some sort of "gyroscopic" horizon and direcdtion indicator. You're talking real money to go "glass panel" in a 170, even if it were possible. There's just not a lot of room there (you don't even typically get a traditional six pack layout). Something like the Garmin G5 may indeed suffice. I was just pointing out that I'd not spend a lot of money on IFR avionics if I didn't ALSO have a realiable horizon/direction indicator and venturis are fine once you're enroute but if you're serious about IFR, I'd be leery.
    Last edited by FlyingRon; 12-23-2017 at 09:40 AM.

  3. #13

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    Getting the instrument ticket is always a good idea. Getting on top, if need be, is MUCH safer than low level scud running.

    Can those old King KLN-89B's still be upgraded? One of those could probably be gotten dirt cheap, but don't know if they are still legal for IFR. Other than that, you could still get an approach anywhere with a VOR or localizer approach with the equipment you currently have. A handheld GPS would be a great asset for situational awareness and helping you stay on track on an airway or a VOR approach. If you can't find an IFR legal GPS in you're budget I'd tend to recommend just staying with what you currently have and using the money you save for gas to stay as IFR PROFICIENT as you possibly can.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    Question One. Is an installed, TSOd VOR/ILS/LOC navigation receiver required by regulation for IFR operation?
    Yes, it must be installed but there is no TSO requirement. The non-TSO'd King KX-170A used to be one of the gold standards for navcom gear.

    Question Two, is an installed TSOd GPS receiver required by regulation for IFR operation?
    Yes to both. Just to be clear, I think the regs says a GPS has to meet the performance requirements of a TSO, not that is has to be specifically manufactured under a TSO authorization.


    Regarding installation, this is cut & paste from FAA Oder 8900.1 Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS).

    1. Section 91.205(d)(2) requires air navigation equipment to be appropriate to the ground facilities used. The current NAS is based on Very high frequency Omnidirectional Range (VOR) and VOR/distance measuring equipment (DME) ground facilities. Therefore, this regulation requires that VOR and/or VOR/DME equipment or an Area Navigation (RNAV) system that meets the en route criteria be installed in the aircraft and operable if it is to be used for IFR flight in the U.S. NAS. [emphasis added]

    This is kinda of a neat reference because a lot of this material originated in the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 and rather than a hard fast rule in a rule book, it specifies the background, concept and intent (or what you might call the pre-preamble) of what is now 91.205(d)(2). The FAA obviously feels the intent of the rule is that IFR navigation gear has to be permanently installed in the aircraft to be legal.
    Last edited by martymayes; 12-24-2017 at 11:05 PM.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis View Post
    Getting the instrument ticket is always a good idea. Getting on top, if need be, is MUCH safer than low level scud running.

    Can those old King KLN-89B's still be upgraded? One of those could probably be gotten dirt cheap, but don't know if they are still legal for IFR. Other than that, you could still get an approach anywhere with a VOR or localizer approach with the equipment you currently have. A handheld GPS would be a great asset for situational awareness and helping you stay on track on an airway or a VOR approach. If you can't find an IFR legal GPS in you're budget I'd tend to recommend just staying with what you currently have and using the money you save for gas to stay as IFR PROFICIENT as you possibly can.
    I agree with all that, one can fly IFR with some very basic radio navcom gear. Add a non IFR GPS for "situational awareness" (like to situate you on the airway or help you locate your position, lol) Just need to have the discipline to say no when tempted to launch in hard IFR.

  6. #16
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    Yeah, but if you're not going to use an IFR GPS, you likely would get better SA from a handheld device be it one of the aviation handhelds or a tablet running your favorite of Foreflight, WingX, Garmin Pilot, Avare...

  7. #17

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    Asfor the gyros, yes you could put a glass panel in a 170 or electricgyros or an electric or engine driven vacuum pump, but you need somesort of "gyroscopic" horizon and direction indicator.”
    An FAA policy statement that attempts to amplify and rationalize the regs regarding glass panels etc:

    http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgPolicy.nsf/0/6a24902ae5f1aeac86257ec1005b2fbc/$FILE/PS-ACE-23-08.pdf


    "
    In dual installations, a secondary G5 can revert to display attitude information in the unlikely event of a failure in the primary attitude indicator position."

    http://www.nexairavionics.com/g5-as-a-dghsi-for-certificated-aircraft/


  8. #18
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    You misunderstand. The reason I put the "gyroscopic" in quotes was that while it might not be a gyroscope, it needs to perform that function.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingRon View Post
    You misunderstand. The reason I put the "gyroscopic" in quotes was that while it might not be a gyroscope, it needs to perform that function.
    Well I certainly wasn't clear in my response, was I?

    Trying again, one need not keep the vacuum system nor install electric gyros to have "gyroscopic" equipment. The FAA and EAA and industry have come up with ways to go glass, even all glass, without gyroscopes - and still have backup. In certificated aircraft. There are some wonderful choices available and not just ones over $ten grand.

    The funny part of this is we're on a thread about a Cessna 170B, a CAR 3 certificated aircraft built in '55. When new it could have been operated Pt91 IFR without attitude or directional gyros. Backup? When you start on needle/ball/airspeed what the heck would "backup" be? How far we have come!

  10. #20
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    But since 1956 it was required to have an attitude indicator and directional gyro to fly IFR and that requirement (albeit with allowances for changes in technology) remains to this day.

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