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Thread: Feedback Needed - Homebuilt Aircraft Cruise Speeds

  1. #21

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    Ron, the number of Airdrome Nieuports, both 11 and 17, are barely in double digits, and true replicas are in the single digits. The vast majority of them are Circa (Graham Lee).

    The differences between Circa and Airdrome aren't meaningful when it comes to surviveability; they're both aluminum tube-and-gusset with pop rivets.

    I suspect true statistics on wrecks vs injury in inexpensive, light aircraft like these is impossible. Liability without hull insurance is the rule. When I flipped my plane, replacing two spars, the prop, crankshaft, gear leg, brakes, wheels, recover and paint the two wings cost less than 1,500 bucks. It won't show up in a database, as it wasn't reported to the FAA or NTSB (though I did file a NASA report).

    Talking within the community, incidents like mine aren't as uncommon as I thought they were. If it doesn't happen in front of the FAA, the cops, or a reporter, it just didn't happen.

    If I had the big money put into an RV, though, I'd probably report it properly and file a claim, as those kinds of repairs would be high. And the stats would be more robust.
    Last edited by Frank Giger; 12-08-2017 at 10:36 AM.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

  2. #22
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Giger View Post
    I suspect true statistics on wrecks vs injury in inexpensive, light aircraft like these is impossible. Liability without hull insurance is the rule. When I flipped my plane, replacing two spars, the prop, crankshaft, gear leg, brakes, wheels, recover and paint the two wings cost less than 1,500 bucks. It won't show up in a database, as it wasn't reported to the FAA or NTSB (though I did file a NASA report).

    Talking within the community, incidents like mine aren't as uncommon as I thought they were. If it doesn't happen in front of the FAA, the cops, or a reporter, it just didn't happen.
    Or with serious injuries or death, of course.

    Otherwise, very true, and not just on the low-buck airplanes. I had previously mentioned a BD-4 accident that occurred at an EAA picnic on an airpark. Chapter members got the pieces stuffed into a hangar before the cops showed up.

    Another case involved a taxi accident of another BD-4. The owner argued this didn't qualify as an aviation accident because the airplane hadn't yet been given an airworthiness certificate. Plus it didn't have wings on.

    Ron Wanttaja

  3. #23
    Dana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Giger View Post
    Talking within the community, incidents like mine aren't as uncommon as I thought they were. If it doesn't happen in front of the FAA, the cops, or a reporter, it just didn't happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    Otherwise, very true, and not just on the low-buck airplanes. I had previously mentioned a BD-4 accident that occurred at an EAA picnic on an airpark. Chapter members got the pieces stuffed into a hangar before the cops showed up.
    Yeah, I've seen more than a few wrecks being tucked out of sight as soon as possible. But with cellphones being ubiquitous nowadays people are just programmed to dial 911 at the slightest provocation, so I suspect even minor accidents will be more likely to be reported.

    Of course I was just unlucky, making my forced landing earlier this fall within sight of a major interstate. They demanded I remove the wreckage immediately just so they'd stop getting 911 calls.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Yeah, I've seen more than a few wrecks being tucked out of sight as soon as possible. But with cellphones being ubiquitous nowadays people are just programmed to dial 911 at the slightest provocation, so I suspect even minor accidents will be more likely to be reported.

    Of course I was just unlucky, making my forced landing earlier this fall within sight of a major interstate. They demanded I remove the wreckage immediately just so they'd stop getting 911 calls.
    "The Guys" at small GA airfields are a little more autonomous (anti authority?) and value privacy more than your typical Facebook poster. I've known of a few bent airplanes that were loaded onto an airplane gurney, tucked away into a hangar, and healed themselves without any "help" from persons outside the airport community.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    Or with serious injuries or death, of course.

    Otherwise, very true, and not just on the low-buck airplanes. I had previously mentioned a BD-4 accident that occurred at an EAA picnic on an airpark. Chapter members got the pieces stuffed into a hangar before the cops showed up.

    Another case involved a taxi accident of another BD-4. The owner argued this didn't qualify as an aviation accident because the airplane hadn't yet been given an airworthiness certificate. Plus it didn't have wings on.
    A friend of mine had the engine quit on a T-cart when he was about to enter downwind in the pattern. Could not quite make the runway and the plane flipped over in a field. The locals were there before the dirt settled, one of which was John Swick. After a brief discussion, JS said "the fewer people that find out the better" so they toted the plane to an empty hangar and and had the sight cleaned up in no time. I like that kind of thinking.

    I know of a no wings installed accident and the feds said, nope, no intent to fly so it was essentially a go-kart accident.

  6. #26

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    Ron, the KR2 is significantly slower than the (still) published 180 mph. And I believe that early claim was for top speed, not cruise. Almost no KR's have retract gear anymore (and haven't for many years --- bad original design), and even with the later larger-bore VW engines, cruise is in the 140-150 mph range. Top speed 165-170. The few flyers who have put a Corvair engine in their KR are getting up in that 180-195 area. And loving it!

  7. #27
    Anymouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    I tend to leave off types with fewer accidents, since it's tough to draw conclusions over only a couple of cases. This is why a number of types aren't included.

    On a similar note, I have 17 Nieuport accidents in my database...but no reliable way to tell which are CIRCA/Graham Lee, Aerodrome, Redfern, etc. types. Eleven had VW engines, so I expect they're CIRCA. But, again, not enough accidents to draw conclusions.

    I didn't include the RV-12 as it's tough to differentiate the EAB from the ELSAs in the NTSB reports and FAA registry, and my focus is EABs. I attempt to track them, but generally don't include them on any released analyses.



    My 1998-2016 database is showing six Tango accidents in the US, but only one fatal (FTW01LA032, continued VFR into IFR conditions, with icing thrown in). I'm suspecting this is an aircraft nomenclature issue (e.g., aircraft model something that doesn't parse as "Tango"). I'd be obliged for more information, to help tune my database.

    Ron Wanttaja
    The accident occurred on July 1st, 1997, so I guess it's out of your range.

    Here's the link anyway...

    https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...mmary&IType=LA

    Looks like the NTSB has cleaned up it's database a bit and the older reports are not as detailed as they once were. The report I saw a bunch of years ago went into a bit more detail about the pilot and his "unwise" flying habits. It's only touched on in the link I provided, but I believe that the folks investigating the accident determined that he had done a complete 360 from the top of the trees to impact.
    Someday I'll come up with something profound

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