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Thread: Another ICON goes down

  1. #31
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Buzz, you're right on regarding Icon's liability in this. For 100 years, pilots have been taught that low flying is a hazardous activity to be avoided when possible. Now Icon claims they have a "safe" way of doing it...a claim negated by the two first fatal accidents. Maneuvering flight at low altitude has a very high fatality rate...about 67% of the accidents are fatal, vs. 12% of accidents caused by engine mechanical failure. Ain't much you can do to make it much safer.

    However, I must gently point out, as far as the "In the line of causality" argument, that juries are involved, and they're often swayed by emotion. There are plenty of examples of large judgements against manufacturers despite the pilot's own contribution to the accident chain.

    Ron Wanttaja

  2. #32
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Giger View Post
    I've done flight reviews in a C172. What a bus!
    When on the radio, I sometimes refer to planes like 172s as "crowd-killers." :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Giger View Post
    Does the Icon marketing encourage reckless behavior? I'm doubtful. I've seen amazing displays of aerobatics done with a J3 Cub - but I'd never attempt to fly like that in one. It's one thing to see advertising of the aircraft scooping low over the water at cruise, it's another to do so one's self.
    The problem is, Frank, this isn't just an "aggressive demo" issue. Icon actually refers to "Lowalt" (low altitude) operations, and has guidelines for it. The company actually promotes low-altitude maneuvering as an activity for its customers.

    Brrrr......

    Ron Wanttaja
    Last edited by rwanttaja; 11-11-2017 at 11:44 AM.

  3. #33

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    Icon actively promotes certain types of flying activities through it's promotional videos and website content. They cannot claim no responsibility or accountability when a customer/owner emulates those activities and expect not to have any liability, despite a one-sided slanted sales agreement. They don't get to have a get out of jail free card. They don't get to suck and blow at the same time.

    Many lawyers at the time said who would sign and agree to such a onerous and odious contract? Numerous personal injury lawyers have said the Icon contract will not hold up in court because the one-sidedness of it deems it unenforceable.

  4. #34

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    I read the low alt guidelines. Seems to be missing most of the hazards, I think.
    For example, if Roy was diving to the water the pullout from a dive is a maneuver that needs a minimum radius.
    Full back stick can't tighten the radius if done too low.
    Once, I almost hit a tram wire at 2000 agl on the Alaska highway route.
    There is difficulty seeing the water surface, the problem of illusion of great speed flying downwind, wind gradient, unexpected low level fog on clear days....
    and much more, I think.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Berson View Post
    I read the low alt guidelines. Seems to be missing most of the hazards, I think...
    I agree. I think the biggest hazards that they omitted are:

    * The human sensory and cognitive systems are simply not as good as they need to be to dependably detect, analyze, and mitigate all the hazards at the speeds at which they are encountered. Lots of them, no problem. Most of them, sure. But not all; 100% mitigation is simply not in the cards. Even Superman sometimes has a bad day. And it only takes one.

    * Results from Dunning and Kruger definitively demonstrate that the human cognitive system is woefully inadequate at assessing its own effectiveness. The first rule of Dunning-Kruger club is that you don't know you are in dunning Kruger club.

    But we've known both of those things pretty much since the dawn of human flight. And there's a fix. The fix is margin.

    --Bob K.
    Bob Kuykendall
    HP-24 kit sailplane project

    HP-24 Project Facebook Page
    http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
    EAA Technical Counselor

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