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Thread: Historical Accuracy vs. Modern Sensibilities

  1. #31
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    Is that an Olympics logo on the glider?

  2. #32
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    Post #8 noted it as such. An Olympic demonstration team.

    Carl Orton
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  3. #33
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    Looks to me as if some here would like to re-write history, and others don't care, and others are somewhere in between. I recall a similar argument (not discussion, but argument) on another forum having to do with vehicles, where folks who lost relatives to Japanese atrocities got their panties all in a twist because someone had touted the virtues of his Toyota. Someone else, a Ford owner, chimed in that "we should all buy vehicles made in America." Problem: that Toyota was indeed made in America, and that guy's Ford was made in the Windsor, Ontario, Ford plant. In today's global economy, it's almost impossible to "buy American" in the strictest sense. As for me, I've owned US built vehicles by both German and Japanese manufacturers, US vehicles built in Canada, and as it happens, German vehicles made in Germany and Japanese vehicles made in Japan.

    C'mon, guys, let's be civil. WWII was a horrible experience for many, but it ended in 1945, 72 years ago. Most of the participants on this board weren't yet born then, and those who were, were infants or toddlers then. Many Americans lost their lives in WWII to both the Germans and the Japanese, but not all of those serving in the armed services of those countries were horrible people. For that matter, many Germans and Japanese lost their lives to the actions of American servicemen, and quite frankly, not all American servicemen were honorable people. There were good and bad on both sides, and it just happens that we're the side that won. That doesn't erase the bad on both sides, nor does it make our side a shining light deserving of unfettered praise.

    My Daddy died in the service of his country, this country, after serving through WWII unscathed, in a horribly unnecessary P-51 crash in May, 1948, leaving a 26 year old widow and a 3 and 4 year old (me). That day is burned into my memory like it happened yesterday. For years, I was told that he was "hot-dogging" and got what he deserved, so I blamed him for abandoning us. That turned out to be lies, told to cover up the truth. Then the official military report was declassified, I obtained a copy, and I learned the truth. For years after that, I harbored hate and blame toward his instructor, who had required him to do a maneuver that was contrary to USAAF regulations and for which he had received no training. At some point, though, I realized that no matter who I hated and who was at fault, it wasn't going to bring him back. I stopped hating.

    Let me tell you, hate only hurts the hater. Realizing that lifted an enormous weight off my shoulders. Stop hating those who you never knew, and that weight may very well be lifted from yours, as well. And for gosh sakes, stop blaming the children and grandchildren of "the other side" for what their ancestors did.

    Cary
    "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth...,
    put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    Best I could do is photos of relatives blotto in Irish pubs or Game and Fisheries mug shots. Though I'm hoping there's one of a Finnish cousin standing by a bunch of Russian heads in 1941.

    Ron "ka iso hammi" Wanttaja
    Found a very interesting Finnish reference yesterday that I did not previously know. Seems Finland traditionally used the Swastika in folk art and as decoration in its history. For reasons that are unclear to me, the Finnish Air Force used it as an insignia in a roundel from 1918-1945. If Finland was part of the Axis during WW2, I was unaware of it and that bothers me because, if that's the case, that's a material fact.

    Maybe you can contact your Finnish relatives for more info.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk View Post
    Oh, nice family photo. Charming. Thanks for sharing. How's your goose-step?
    It is charming, as it was the last time these brothers saw each other, or their friend.

    About half of those who went to war never came back. Some of my relatives were killed in Allied bombings.

    As far as the goose stepping goes, not for me, thanks. My father immigrated to the USA and served 25 years in the US Army. I served 23 years in the US Army. So I think my bonafides are okay.

    I feel absolutely no shame that they served in the German Army in WWII. Why should I? They were Germans and their country was at war. Those that didn't volunteer were drafted. Then again, I don't glorify the cause their nation fought for.

    None of them were Nazi's. They were just simple soldiers. And the stories I could tell about their interactions with actual Nazi members would be pretty enlightening. This isn't the forum for it, but it wasn't positive, and one of my great-cousins was convicted by court martial and executed by the Nazis for speaking out on the ills of National Socialism (and a few other things related to it, including being a member of a clandestine swing band of all things).

    The lens of history is sharply focused, but it was very murky, particularly leading up to the war. One could side with the government, which had given power to an Austrian Corporal, or with the Communists who were making a very real play to take control of the country. The Great Depression in Germany was a whole different animal than in the USA. In fact, the USA had many charity programs to send food for the starving Germans even as soup lines were being formed in the larger US cities.

    At any rate it does nothing to try and hide or shy away from family history. It is what it is.

    [edit]

    I also have some relatives that weren't in uniform and suffered at the hands of Nazi's. On my Dad's side, his uncle was castrated, as he was epileptic, and they wanted to ensure he wouldn't pass on his defective genes. His epilepsy was due to a head injury suffered in a motorcycle wreck, but they wouldn't listen to it. But he wasn't shy about talking about why neighbors should never spy or report on neighbors, and what he thought of informers.
    Last edited by Frank Giger; 10-18-2017 at 06:33 PM.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cary View Post
    And for gosh sakes, stop blaming the children and grandchildren of "the other side" for what their ancestors did.

    Cary
    +1

    Blaming the sons and daughters for the sins of the father is irrational, illogical and just plain wrong.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    Boys, boys, boys... I took Mark's comment as a joke, in middlin' taste. Could'a used a smilie to be clear though.
    I apologize to Wyo, Dale, and especially Frank. He WAS Serious.

    Geeze.

    Ron Wanttaja

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floatsflyer View Post
    Blaming the sons and daughters for the sins of the father is irrational, illogical and just plain wrong.
    Which is how the Holocaust itself happened. Jews of the 20th century were blamed for the actions of a few Jews nearly 2,000 years earlier.

    Ron "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" Wanttaja

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floatsflyer View Post
    Found a very interesting Finnish reference yesterday that I did not previously know. Seems Finland traditionally used the Swastika in folk art and as decoration in its history. For reasons that are unclear to me, the Finnish Air Force used it as an insignia in a roundel from 1918-1945. If Finland was part of the Axis during WW2, I was unaware of it and that bothers me because, if that's the case, that's a material fact.

    Maybe you can contact your Finnish relatives for more info.
    The Finns *did* have a swastika for their Air Force insignia in that period. It wasn't the same as the German Hakencreuz; it was more along the lines of the traditional swastika.

    They are rather famous for being one of the few air forces that used the Brewster Buffalo as an effective weapon.

    They weren't part of the axis during WWII, but they were in a hot corner. The Soviets were invading and trying to occupy the country. Supplying the Finns was seen as opposing the Soviet Union, so many countries were leery about selling military equivalent to Finland. This was especially true after Germany invaded the Soviet Union in in 1941, and the Soviets became one of the Allies. Supplying Finland was tantamount to helping the Germans.

    The Germans did supply some equipment; the Finnish Air Force thus had Dutch Fokkers, British Bristol Bulldogs and Blenheims, American Buffalos, and German BF-109s in the same Air Force.

    Never tried to contact the Finnish side of the family, though a Finnish peacekeeper emailed me about 15 years back. There is no "W" in the Finnish alphabet; the original family name was "Vanttaja." Finnish nobility of that name can be traced back to the 1600s. However, the area was mostly Russian, and the estates used slaves (e.g., serfs) who had no last times. When the serfs were freed in the late 1800s, they took the last name of their former owner.

    So I've been trying to get on the list for those slave reparations.... :-)

    Ron Wanttaja

  10. #40

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    Excuse my ignorance, but does the Finnish use symbolize the same ideology?
    Rick

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