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Thread: What the fourum should b and could be

  1. #1

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    What the fourum should b and could be

    !, Just like when you are a visitor to Airventure and almost everyone is nice and gets along, that's how this forum should be. We should use it in a good mood and positive low key way and enjoy it. IT SHOULD NOT be a conflict or problem that Sam or some moderator has to be alert to and certainly not has to have a long set of rules that sounds like it was written by a lawyer with the worst case in mind. We just had a silly dispute when Randy, trying to be helpfull and a good guy posted the reference about Equifax and rather than use it or not some people started to criticize and it got to be a big thing. And it wasnt Sam who took offense.
    2. I dont want to add discord. , I may have a strong opinion, BUT I HAVE NEVER TOLD SOMEONE THEY SHOULD NOT WRITE ON ANY TOPIC ON THE FORUM. I WELCOME ALL AND THINK ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO BE HERE AND MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER, and Im not too fragile to hear another view.
    3, Good manners would mean that no one tries to silence another here, if you disagree with his opinion do it politiely. Example one could claim P51 was the best WW11 fighter, maybe but I could point out that the war was half over before it was a factor. Both valid points. We have 2 ears and only one nose so try listening twice as much as sticking your nose in other people's post.If a post upsets you so much , read something else. Even if you didnt like Randy's post or see it as helpful it was doing no harm, wouldnt likely have made such an issue without people attacking it. My short post on shooting at a hurricane wasnt flying but was intended to bring a laugh.
    4. Finally, Sam points out that as a private group EAA can restrict freedom of speech IF THEY WANT TO.
    But also EAA could follow and honor the vital principle in first amendment, be an open, democratic organization. EAA would never cross the line of discriminating for religious or ethnic or gender or national origin reasons. So give freedom of speech the same respect, be sort a micro version of what makes us a great country. Its great that Sam says he has flexibility of judgment, I hope others relax and quit being so scared of anyones interest or opinions . After all we honor people like Bud Anderson that fought for such freedoms.
    The forum is good, really an asset to EAA, but it can be better with a little help from EAA as well as us.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 09-15-2017 at 10:11 AM.

  2. #2

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    Sad. Really sad.

    Out of respect and some modicum of decency I am not exercising my freedom of speech to say what I really feel.

  3. #3
    Auburntsts's Avatar
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    Bill you must not frequent many other Forums. I do: AOPA, Vans Air Force, Pilots of America, Matronics, and BeechTalk are my aviation ones. They all place restrictions on posting in an attempt to keep things from devolving into anarchy. Some have specific subforums specifically for non-aviation topics, but they all put limits on what can be posted where. Personally I'd prefer we'd stick to aviation related subjects and leave topics like shooting at hurricanes for other forums. There are plenty of places where one can post about whatever interests them. Just because you find something interesting doesn't mean we will but that's OK, but it would sure be nice if the posts met the intent of the site which is to have a place to discuss all things EAA.
    Todd Stovall
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  4. #4
    Rod Schneider's Avatar
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    I'm also on a number of forums, both aviation and automotive related (those are my two main interests). Virtually every one of them have rules in place to spell out what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in the way of topics that may be posted. These are all "specialty" forums to one degree or another. I don't talk about my Corvette on the Porsche forums because those forums are not there for Corvette discussions. If I want to talk about a non aviation or non automotive interest, then there are other forums for these type of discussions. The EAA forum is also a "specialty" forum for discussing topics related to the EAA. This, in my opinion, is as it should be. One of my automotive forums did begin an "Off Topic" section some time back where there are no limits on what can be discussed, including politics and religion. It has degenerated into a sewer despite the best efforts to try and get people to behave. I'd hate for that to happen here........
    Rod Schneider
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    Finally, Sam points out that as a private group EAA can restrict freedom of speech IF THEY WANT TO.
    But also EAA could follow and honor the vital principle in first amendment, be an open, democratic organization. EAA would never cross the line of discriminating for religious or ethnic or gender or national origin reasons. So give freedom of speech the same respect, be sort a micro version of what makes us a great country.
    Hey Bill,

    Not all speech is free speech.

    Here's a little primer on your First Amendment with respect to free speech...from a Canadian no less. It states, "Congress shall make no law....abridging the freedom of speech..." CONGRESS not EAA or any other entity. Huge difference.

    Furthermore the last 241 years of case law and Supreme Court interpretations says there are types of speech that are not protected by the First Amendment. In no particular order they are:

    Obscenity
    Defamation-libel and slander
    Certain fighting words
    Child porn
    Hate speech
    Perjury
    Incitement to lawless action
    True threats
    Blackmail
    Solicitation to commit crimes
    Verbal Treason
    Plagiarism of copyrighted material

    I think what you're advocating falls under # 7. (Just a joke :>) )

    So EAA and every other entity can unfortunately restrict your freedom of speech which is not exactly guaranteed under the First Amendment. How 'bout that!

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Floatsflyer View Post
    Hey Bill,

    Not all speech is free speech.

    Here's a little primer on your First Amendment with respect to free speech...from a Canadian no less. It states, "Congress shall make no law....abridging the freedom of speech..." CONGRESS not EAA or any other entity. Huge difference.

    Furthermore the last 241 years of case law and Supreme Court interpretations says there are types of speech that are not protected by the First Amendment. In no particular order they are:

    Obscenity
    Defamation-libel and slander
    Certain fighting words
    Child porn
    Hate speech
    Perjury
    Incitement to lawless action
    True threats
    Blackmail
    Solicitation to commit crimes
    Verbal Treason
    Plagiarism of copyrighted material

    I think what you're advocating falls under # 7. (Just a joke :>) )

    So EAA and every other entity can unfortunately restrict your freedom of speech which is not exactly guaranteed under the First Amendment. How 'bout that!
    Only if your comment is related to or includes one of the listed:

    Obscenity
    Defamation-libel and slander
    Certain fighting words
    Child porn
    Hate speech
    Perjury
    Incitement to lawless action
    True threats
    Blackmail
    Solicitation to commit crimes
    Verbal Treason
    Plagiarism of copyrighted material

    Anything else is censorship:
    censorshipˈsensərSHip/
    noun
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

    • 1.
      the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.
      [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the regulation imposes censorship on all media"[/COLOR]
    • 2.
      (in ancient Rome) the office or position of censor.
      [COLOR=#878787 !important]"he celebrated a triumph together with his father and they held the censorship jointly"[/COLOR]



  7. #7
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    !, Just like when you are a visitor to Airventure and almost everyone is nice and gets along, that's how this forum should be. We should use it in a good mood and positive low key way and enjoy it. IT SHOULD NOT be a conflict or problem that Sam or some moderator has to be alert to and certainly not has to have a long set of rules that sounds like it was written by a lawyer with the worst case in mind. We just had a silly dispute when Randy, trying to be helpfull and a good guy posted the reference about Equifax and rather than use it or not some people started to criticize and it got to be a big thing. And it wasnt Sam who took offense.
    2. I dont want to add discord. , I may have a strong opinion, BUT I HAVE NEVER TOLD SOMEONE THEY SHOULD NOT WRITE ON ANY TOPIC ON THE FORUM. I WELCOME ALL AND THINK ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO BE HERE AND MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER, and Im not too fragile to hear another view.
    3, Good manners would mean that no one tries to silence another here, if you disagree with his opinion do it politiely. Example one could claim P51 was the best WW11 fighter, maybe but I could point out that the war was half over before it was a factor. Both valid points. We have 2 ears and only one nose so try listening twice as much as sticking your nose in other people's post.If a post upsets you so much , read something else. Even if you didnt like Randy's post or see it as helpful it was doing no harm, wouldnt likely have made such an issue without people attacking it. My short post on shooting at a hurricane wasnt flying but was intended to bring a laugh.
    4. Finally, Sam points out that as a private group EAA can restrict freedom of speech IF THEY WANT TO.
    But also EAA could follow and honor the vital principle in first amendment, be an open, democratic organization. EAA would never cross the line of discriminating for religious or ethnic or gender or national origin reasons. So give freedom of speech the same respect, be sort a micro version of what makes us a great country. Its great that Sam says he has flexibility of judgment, I hope others relax and quit being so scared of anyones interest or opinions . After all we honor people like Bud Anderson that fought for such freedoms.
    The forum is good, really an asset to EAA, but it can be better with a little help from EAA as well as us.
    You seem to be forgetting something: Assuming that all the people you've insulted, maligned, and called names magically start to support you.

    It would make no difference, because none of the regular participants here have the power to do anything. To use a childhood analogy, this is EAA's football...and we have to play by their rules.

    Rules are, basically, a line in the sand. You want to erase that line and draw another one.

    Fair enough. But a new line has to be actually drawn, and, in fact, has to be defined in a fashion that would satisfy EAA's lawyers. If *I* were advocating rule changes, I'd modify the current set and post them for review and comment. EAA STILL wouldn't be under any obligation to use them, but at least it'd be constructive.

    BTW, replacing the current rules with "Let Bill Greenwood Post Whatever He Wants" is not likely to be approved by the EAA lawyers.

    A lot of good commentary on free speech/first amendment. Paul Harvey probably put it best: "Your rights end where my nose begins." No private citizen, no corporation, no TV station, no newspaper, or any other organization can be forced to provide a public forum to anyone who demands it.

    For those looking for context of this latest screed, it looks like Mr. Greenwood had another thread deleted. He posted it Wednesday, Floats and I responded to it, but when I tried to add a second response a bit later, the forum software said "Invalid Thread." It no longer exists.

    Ron "And I had SUCH a good exit line" Wanttaja

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    Only if your comment is related to or includes one of the listed:

    Obscenity
    Defamation-libel and slander
    Certain fighting words
    Child porn
    Hate speech
    Perjury
    Incitement to lawless action
    True threats
    Blackmail
    Solicitation to commit crimes
    Verbal Treason
    Plagiarism of copyrighted material

    Anything else is censorship:
    censorshipˈsensərSHip/
    noun
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

    • 1.
      the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.
      [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the regulation imposes censorship on all media"[/COLOR]
    • 2.
      (in ancient Rome) the office or position of censor.
      [COLOR=#878787 !important]"he celebrated a triumph together with his father and they held the censorship jointly"[/COLOR]



    I'm not at all sure what you're saying here. Expand.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post

    For those looking for context of this latest screed, it looks like Mr. Greenwood had another thread deleted. He posted it Wednesday, Floats and I responded to it, but when I tried to add a second response a bit later, the forum software said "Invalid Thread." It no longer exists.

    Ron "And I had SUCH a good exit line" Wanttaja
    Ya, I was ticked that one got the boot. The title was "What does anyone know about nuclear bombs". Bill's been face timing with Kimmy. :>). We and others replied with some damn good stuff! Bill thought that this was aviation related because of the bombs delivery systems. We pointed out a different opinion.

  10. #10

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    The unsaid issue is that these off-topic threads are often controversial subjects (politics, war, global threats, foreign policy, fiscal policy, etc) which inevitably (by design?) turn into food fights in the forum. Those food fights ultimately polarize a bunch of airplane guys along the lines of liberal/conservative, republican/democrat, religious/agnostic, etc. At that point everything turns into a fight because "We don't agree on politics, so I'm gonna disagree with anything you post because I don't like your political viewpoint."

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